Post Mortem 2023/24 - Cleveland Cavaliers (Eliminated in East Semis)

[Helsbyte]

Pick either Mobley or Allen and the find a stretch big to pair who you keep.

[Hugi Mancura]

Having two bigs who can't shoot or are not willing to shoot (Mobley did improve a lot) doesn't work if your playing style is running high pick&roll all the time. Too many players under the basket, so there is not room for ball handler to drive or to throw alley oop. In regular season, where teams don't care you might win lot of games, but in playoffs where teams starts to use your weaknesses against you it doesn't.

There are ways to play with two bigs, but Bickerstaff doesn't know those or are not willing to change his offense.So fire the coach and find a coach who is willing to build their offense based on the players they have or trade on of the bigs (Allen). I don't think they should break the team. If Garland and Mitchell can't play together then trade one, but I wouldn't force the trade just because team failed.

[Doctor MJ]

So, I said fire the GM.

To be clear: If Mitchell re-signs with the team through the GM, it probably doesn't make sense to fire him, so to some degree this is built on an expectation that Mitchell doesn't do that.

My general feeling though is that the front office made two huge bets that fit didn't matter in building a team around 2 lead guards and 2 traditional bigs, and they've lose both of those bets. In doing so they've wasted time, assets, and morale.

In fairness to the GM (Altman), I'm not sure how much choice he had in the matter because of his owner. If this is more about ownership than anything else and a new GM probably won't change anything, but the GM-ing quality is without question fire-able in its shortsightedness.

I said not to fire the coach (Bickerstaff) because I really don't think this is the coach's fault, but aside from the fact that I'm kind of expecting him to be fired in reality, since I'm saying the GM should go, that will leave the coach as a lame duck likely to be let go when the new GM gets to pick the coach.

In terms of the player personnel, what's awkward here is that is that among the guards the older Mitchell is the one I think most would rather build around, but among the bigs the younger Mobley is the one I think most would rather build around. While a 5-year age gap between your big two isn't the worst thing in the world, it still represents choosing the "right now" player with one hand and the "future" player with the other...which certainly isn't how you're imagining building a team typically.

Coloring all of this for me is that I just would never have made the trade for Mitchell to pair with Garland. If you don't believe in Garland cool, then you trade him for Mitchell. If you do believe in Garland, then you continue to build your offense with him as head of the snake. For the record, I do believe in Garland. Not saying he's better than Mitchell, but it's a choice between Mitchell or Garland plus all the assets the Cavs gave up to get Mitchell, I'll choose Garland+Assets.

Those assets are gone now of course so they are moot when it comes to deciding the franchise future, and I expect I'd be shopping Garland if I felt Mitchell wanted to say.

The bigs situation, and how the Cavs got here with them, is a bit more understandable. Young bigs oftentimes start their career at the 4 until they get their full man body, so it made sense to pair Mobley with another big early on, and the Allen acquisition was a steal.

But it does seem like when the Garland-Allen-Mobley trio started to work the Cavs became convinced that the Allen-Mobley duo was tenable for the long term...and I just don't think that was ever a reasonable thought. At some point you've got to be ready to trade one of them, and frankly unless you've given up on Mobley, I always assumed it would be Allen.

So yeah, I'd be planning to trade Allen this off-season no matter what else is going on with the team. This is the time to sell high on him. (And if the team is instead more sold on Allen, well, then they should have traded Mobley a year ago.)

[Doctor MJ]

I said it in the Garland trade demand thread (if Mitchell is extended). I would trade Allen, Mitchell and Garland. Tell the league we're building around Evan Mobley. He's our franchise guy. The same way Paolo is Orlando's franchise. The way Scottie Barnes is Toronto's franchise. Rip the bandaid off and tell everyone if you're not on Evan's program, you're out.

I'm with you on building around Mobley, but I don't see why you need to trade both Mitchell & Garland to do that. I think you want one of them.

[Capn'O]

Spoiler:

So, I said fire the GM.

To be clear: If Mitchell re-signs with the team through the GM, it probably doesn't make sense to fire him, so to some degree this is built on an expectation that Mitchell doesn't do that.

My general feeling though is that the front office made two huge bets that fit didn't matter in building a team around 2 lead guards and 2 traditional bigs, and they've lose both of those bets. In doing so they've wasted time, assets, and morale.

In fairness to the GM (Altman), I'm not sure how much choice he had in the matter because of his owner. If this is more about ownership than anything else and a new GM probably won't change anything, but the GM-ing quality is without question fire-able in its shortsightedness.

I said not to fire the coach (Bickerstaff) because I really don't think this is the coach's fault, but aside from the fact that I'm kind of expecting him to be fired in reality, since I'm saying the GM should go, that will leave the coach as a lame duck likely to be let go when the new GM gets to pick the coach.

In terms of the player personnel, what's awkward here is that is that among the guards the older Mitchell is the one I think most would rather build around, but among the bigs the younger Mobley is the one I think most would rather build around. While a 5-year age gap between your big two isn't the worst thing in the world, it still represents choosing the "right now" player with one hand and the "future" player with the other...which certainly isn't how you're imagining building a team typically.

Coloring all of this for me is that I just would never have made the trade for Mitchell to pair with Garland. If you don't believe in Garland cool, then you trade him for Mitchell. If you do believe in Garland, then you continue to build your offense with him as head of the snake. For the record, I do believe in Garland. Not saying he's better than Mitchell, but it's a choice between Mitchell or Garland plus all the assets the Cavs gave up to get Mitchell, I'll choose Garland+Assets.

Those assets are gone now of course so they are moot when it comes to deciding the franchise future, and I expect I'd be shopping Garland if I felt Mitchell wanted to say.

The bigs situation, and how the Cavs got here with them, is a bit more understandable. Young bigs oftentimes start their career at the 4 until they get their full man body, so it made sense to pair Mobley with another big early on, and the Allen acquisition was a steal.

But it does seem like when the Garland-Allen-Mobley trio started to work the Cavs became convinced that the Allen-Mobley duo was tenable for the long term...and I just don't think that was ever a reasonable thought. At some point you've got to be ready to trade one of them, and frankly unless you've given up on Mobley, I always assumed it would be Allen.

So yeah, I'd be planning to trade Allen this off-season no matter what else is going on with the team. This is the time to sell high on him. (And if the team is instead more sold on Allen, well, then they should have traded Mobley a year ago.)

You saved me a bunch of writing but without the sugar coating I would have added. They need somebody who can build a team and not a fantasy bball architect.

[Iwasawitness]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

[Chuck Everett]

I said it in the Garland trade demand thread (if Mitchell is extended). I would trade Allen, Mitchell and Garland. Tell the league we're building around Evan Mobley. He's our franchise guy. The same way Paolo is Orlando's franchise. The way Scottie Barnes is Toronto's franchise. Rip the bandaid off and tell everyone if you're not on Evan's program, you're out.

I'm with you on building around Mobley, but I don't see why you need to trade both Mitchell & Garland to do that. I think you want one of them.

I agreed with your post wholeheartedly, but my issue with Mitchell is that he's a ballhog and seems almost incapable of elevating his teammates when the going gets tough. When it gets like that, his idea is to take every shot. Can't win like that and Mobley can never level up playing with someone like that. Mitchell basically has to be an AI-led Philly squad of all defenders who can knock down open 3's.

As for Garland, I just don't think he's that good. His All-star season is meaningless to me because in the playoffs I believe he can be attacked too much on the defensive end. He's small, weak and inconsistent. I just flat out think there are a lot of guards better than him. If I could trade him for Coby White, I absolutely would.

[JujitsuFlip]

No way Allen gets traded unless opposing teams give an insane package for him. He was terrific this year and is on a very team friendly contract.

This is the exact time to trade a guy like Allen. Buy low, sell high.

Nah, screw that. Keep him, he’s too good.

Terrible fit with Mobley.

[JujitsuFlip]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

Gotta take the training wheels off at some point. Mobley needs to start playing 5 full time so the Cavs can get this show on the road. Stop delaying the inevitable, Allen is not the future at 5, it is Mobley.

[Iwasawitness]

This is the exact time to trade a guy like Allen. Buy low, sell high.

Nah, screw that. Keep him, he’s too good.

Terrible fit with Mobley.

Mobleys offensive game is developing and together they make Cleveland one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don’t buy the terrible fit narrative and until I see something substantial to actually prove it, there’s no reason to get rid of Allen.

Hell, if it’s that big of a deal, start one and have the other come off the bench. Allen as your sixth man would be utter insanity.

[JujitsuFlip]

Nah, screw that. Keep him, he’s too good.

Terrible fit with Mobley.

Mobleys offensive game is developing and together they make Cleveland one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don’t buy the terrible fit narrative and until I see something substantial to actually prove it, there’s no reason to get rid of Allen.

Hell, if it’s that big of a deal, start one and have the other come off the bench. Allen as your sixth man would be utter insanity.

Yeah, I'm sure Allen would go for that.

[Doctor MJ]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

A good question and I think you might a good point: Losing Allen would come at a cost.

However:

1. If Mobley just plain looks better at the 5, then I think "building around Mobley" means you play him at the 5 even if it costs you in the short term.

2. It has to be considered when you can expect to get most from Allen given the expectation that you will eventually need to trade him. Wait too long and his lost in prominence on a team that may well stagnate could really diminish what you could expect to get in return for him.

Now as I say all of this, there is the whole Mitchell thing. Keeping Mitchell happy might make it necessary to keep Allen.

[FarBeyondDriven]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

I think the strategy should be to treat Mobley like Duncan with more action going through him and Mobley playing the 5 against 75% of the centers in the league and the 4 against the other 25% of actually good centers. You'd obviously want a big body to absorb fouls and rebound against that 25% and those can be found cheap. As for rebounding as a whole, they just need to find better players with size and rebounding skills. Breaking up or getting rid of the tiny backcourt would help. Finding NBA caliber 2-4 (which they've been incapable of for some reason) would help as well.

Team just needs a complete and total overhaul. I'm half convinced Mobley will demand a trade so the Cavs are really screwed if they don't correct this situation which is why I'd build around Mobley and run the offense through him because who else will do that? It might be enough to keep him content in CLE and be a lifer with his jersey getting retired someday.

[Iwasawitness]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

I think the strategy should be to treat Mobley like Duncan with more action going through him and Mobley playing the 5 against 75% of the centers in the league and the 4 against the other 25% of actually good centers. You'd obviously want a big body to absorb fouls and rebound against that 25% and those can be found cheap. As for rebounding as a whole, they just need to find better players with size and rebounding skills. Breaking up or getting rid of the tiny backcourt would help. Finding NBA caliber 2-4 (which they've been incapable of for some reason) would help as well.

Team just needs a complete and total overhaul. I'm half convinced Mobley will demand a trade so the Cavs are really screwed if they don't correct this situation which is why I'd build around Mobley and run the offense through him because who else will do that? It might be enough to keep him content in CLE and be a lifer with his jersey getting retired someday.

What makes you think Mobley would demand a trade? He doesn’t seem like the kind of person to do that.

[Bobbymcgee]

Mitchell isn't going anywhere.

He has free reign to jack up as many shots as he wants in Cleveland. Dude is a ball hog.

And, he is about to get a massive new contract for it.

If anyone leaves it's going to be Garland and/or Mobley.

[cgf]

The Mitchell question is obviously the key, but I also wonder if it's not time for Mobley to move to the 5 full-time. Yes he's not yet strong enough to hold up against all match-ups, but it feels like they should sell high on Allen & just live with those growing pains.

[Statlanta]

This is kinda sad. One player protected their health and then they packed it in for Cancun

Read on Twitter

[JonFromVA]

Nah, screw that. Keep him, he’s too good.

Terrible fit with Mobley.

Mobleys offensive game is developing and together they make Cleveland one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don’t buy the terrible fit narrative and until I see something substantial to actually prove it, there’s no reason to get rid of Allen.

Hell, if it’s that big of a deal, start one and have the other come off the bench. Allen as your sixth man would be utter insanity.

You're not wrong, but it looks like the players, their agents, and perhaps even a coaching change are going to push the Cavs away from their unconventional 2 big + 2 small lineup regardless of what may or may not make sense.

The Pelicans are a team to watch ... 49-wins, swept out of the first round, their PBO's are good friends, and they have complimentary pieces that could potentially help each other out.

[Iwasawitness]

Terrible fit with Mobley.

Mobleys offensive game is developing and together they make Cleveland one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don’t buy the terrible fit narrative and until I see something substantial to actually prove it, there’s no reason to get rid of Allen.

Hell, if it’s that big of a deal, start one and have the other come off the bench. Allen as your sixth man would be utter insanity.

You're not wrong, but it looks like the players, their agents, and perhaps even a coaching change are going to push the Cavs away from their unconventional 2 big + 2 small lineup regardless of what may or may not make sense.

The Pelicans are a team to watch ... 49-wins, swept out of the first round, their PBO's are good friends, and they have complimentary pieces that could potentially help each other out.

So far the only change I for sure see coming is Cleveland getting rid of the two small guards. Otherwise, I fully expect Mobley/Allen to both stay on the team unless they manage to get a ridiculously good deal for Allen. Mitchell or Garland is understandable, but Allen's contract makes him tricky to trade as having someone as good as him on that kind of deal is bonkers and you're going to want a lot in order to even consider giving him up. At that point the question becomes what's out there that's worth pursuing in order to give him up?

[JujitsuFlip]

This is kinda sad. One player protected their health and then they packed it in for Cancun

Read on Twitter

He's been injured every post season for the Cavs.

2022 missed the first play-in game then played the 2nd with essentially one hand because of his broken finger.

2023 played all 5 first round games but was dealing with a groin injury, that I'm sure limited him.

2024 played 4 first round games, missed the entire 2nd round due to a rib injury.

A lot of his injuries are more freak type stuff than recurring or wear and tear.