At mid-season, is Brendan Haywood the 2nd best C in the EC?

[nate33]

Emeka Okafor and Dwight Howard are easily better than him.

Okafor shows up as a PF on my spreadsheet so I didn't include him. Here are his pace-adjusted per-40 numbers versus Haywood:

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Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
haywood,bren 15.6 11.6  1.2  0.7  2.6  2.2 .538 .593 19.1
okafor,emeka 15.6 12.5  0.8  1.3  2.2  2.2 .520 .538 17.6

Okafor is probably a slightly better help defender than Haywood, but I'll take Haywood over Okafor anyday on man-to-man post D.

Haywood has 9-5 standing reach - the second tallest in the NBA behind only Yao. Guys simply can't score on the block against him. If I'm fielding an all-star team to go against the West, and I know I have to face Yao, Duncan, and perhaps Kaman. I'd prefer to have Haywood as my backup center.

[MaxRider]

i think Rasheed Wallace is the 2nd best center in the Eastern conference
well he started at center this season

[nate33]

Goes to show you just how far the C/Big Man Position (of years past) has fallen......

This also brings the question, once again, as to why so few C's (a la Zo, Robinson, Hakeem, Duncan) are basically non-existent in today's game, save for a few here and there...

It's true that there aren't as many truly great centers like Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq, but I submit that Haywood is having a year equally as good as the prime years of several good, all-star centers of yesteryear. Here are Haywood's pace-adjusted per-40 numbers versus the prime years of Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, Theo Ratliff, Vlade Divac and Jayson Williams. All of them made all-star games at one time or another:

Code: Select all

haywood,b  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2007-08   15.6 11.6  1.2  0.7  2.6  2.2 .538 .593 19.1

mutombo,d  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2000-01   11.7 15.9  1.2  0.5  3.2  2.3 .484 .547 17.5
1999-00   12.7 15.6  1.4  0.4  3.6  2.3 .562 .621 19.4
1998-99   12.7 14.4  1.3  0.4  3.5  2.2 .512 .584 18.8
1997-98   15.8 13.4  1.2  0.5  4.0  2.4 .537 .584 19.7
1996-97   15.3 13.3  1.6  0.7  3.8  2.7 .527 .584 19.1
1995-96   12.0 12.9  1.6  0.6  4.9  2.2 .499 .562 17.2
1994-95   12.2 13.3  1.5  0.5  4.2  2.5 .556 .595 17.1
1993-94   13.1 12.9  1.7  0.8  4.5  2.7 .569 .590 17.8
1992-93   13.8 13.0  1.8  0.5  3.5  2.6 .510 .567 17.3

wallace,b  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2005-06    8.9 13.7  2.3  2.2  2.7  1.3 .510 .501 17.7
2004-05   11.4 14.3  2.0  1.7  2.8  1.3 .454 .459 17.5
2003-04   10.7 13.9  1.9  2.0  3.4  1.7 .422 .441 17.3
2002-03    7.6 16.8  1.8  1.6  3.4  1.3 .482 .486 17.3
2001-02    8.6 14.8  1.6  2.0  3.9  1.0 .531 .522 18.8

miller,br  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2004-05   16.7  9.9  4.2  1.3  1.3  1.6 .528 .596 20.7
2003-04   15.4 11.3  4.7  1.0  1.3  2.2 .518 .579 19.3
2002-03   16.9 10.7  3.4  1.2  0.8  2.1 .497 .579 19.3
2001-02   18.3 11.0  2.7  1.3  0.7  2.0 .501 .572 19.8

ratliff,t  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2000-01   14.0  9.3  1.3  0.7  4.2  2.8 .499 .562 16.2
1999-00   15.0  9.7  0.8  0.7  3.8  2.4 .503 .568 16.7
1998-99   14.4 10.5  0.8  1.2  3.8  2.4 .470 .539 17.0
1997-98   13.6  9.2  1.0  0.8  4.3  1.9 .513 .561 16.1

divac,vla  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
2000-01   15.7 10.9  3.7  1.4  1.5  3.1 .485 .536 17.7
1999-00   15.7 10.3  3.8  1.6  1.6  3.0 .507 .552 17.9
1998-99   15.6 11.0  4.7  1.0  1.1  2.9 .480 .533 17.9
1997-98   15.3 11.9  3.9  1.9  2.2  2.6 .501 .539 19.3
1996-97   15.1 10.7  4.4  1.5  2.6  2.8 .500 .533 17.9
1995-96   16.5 11.0  4.2  1.2  2.1  3.2 .515 .544 17.5
1994-95   17.8 11.6  4.6  1.5  2.4  2.9 .512 .568 20.9
1993-94   16.5 12.5  4.5  1.3  1.6  2.8 .511 .546 19.2
1992-93   16.0 11.1  3.5  2.0  2.1  3.3 .498 .542 17.3

williams,  PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
1997-98   14.7 15.5  1.2  0.8  0.9  1.7 .498 .541 19.0

[TheKingOfVa360]

Haywood is the second best center in the NBA hands down

[SactownHrtBrks8]

Haywood is the second best center in the NBA hands down

in the NBA? Hands down? I'd go with he is the best center on the Wizards hands down lol

[GilArenas88]

Its good to see people finally coming around to see how good Haywood is. Yes is numbers aren't gawdy, but a solid 10 ppg 8 rpg 1.5 bpg. His percentages are great, he's majorly improved his free throw shooting this past offseason. People though really miss what Haywood does because it doesn't show up in the stats and he doesn't get name reconization for is stellar defense, both man-to-man and help.

This is no freak occurance either like just this season, Haywood has been that good for 3-4 seasons now. Wizards fans for the past few years have hated Eddie Jordan because he played favorites and would give more playing time to Etan Thomas. Since Etan has been out all season, Haywood has got to show his true worth, and how good he is as a defender and offensive rebounder. Still even with his great play this year many Wizards fans still think Eddie Jordan doesn't give him enough minutes, just go check out some Wizard board conversation, I'd think he'd be putting up something like 12 pts 10 rebs 2 blks if he was given 30+ per night, but hey woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Haywood no doubt in my mind, homerism set aside is a top 5 post defender in the league right up their with Rasheed and Duncan. I hope people really start to give him the respect he deserves. People look at his numbers and say hey if he's a top 3 East center that really shows the decline in centers. To a degree the center position is very much in decline, but their not really seeing the whole picture with Haywood. First he has not a single offensive play ran for him and he puts up almost 11 pts per game up off an array of dunks, put-backs, tips, a few hooks, and now even has a jumper.

I actually think the Wiz should run a few plays for him, but I think I'm in the minority their even with Wiz fans. I figure since he shoots such a high percentage(14th in the league) and shoots free throws at a good clip why not give him 3-4 more touches per game, quite possibly I think he could average around 14-15 pts per game. His rebound numbers are great on the offensive boards, and okay on the defensive boards, but Jamison does gobble up 11 per game himself. The point I'm trying to make is yeah his numbers aren't the likes of Dwights or Duncans, but don't overlook his contribution. Is he an All-Star this season, eh, you could make the argument either way. As a Wiz fan I would like to see him make him, but I wouldn't be dissapointed if he doesn't, plus at this point Caron and Jamison are more deserving then him. I do think though that he should be given 1st or 2nd All-Defensive team if he keeps his play up, will see though.

Okay I'm done with my rant.

[High 5]

At least until Horford comes around.

[Basileus777]

Using per 40 stats to compare a player who plays 27 mins is a bit misleading....

[Cevap]

-= original quote snipped =-


I can't post the last 8 or 9 games, but I can post the last 10 games. Here are Haywood's and Bogut's pace-adjusted per-40 numbers over the last 10 games:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
haywood,bren 16.8 10.4  1.2  1.2  2.4  2.1 .533 .608 20.3
bogut,andrew 17.9 10.8  3.6  0.9  1.0  2.4 .589 .604 20.0

Bogut is playing very well lately, but Haywood is still posting better numbers and he remains the better defender.

i don't know about you but to me it looks like their stats are similar. bogut got him in assist while brenda has the block edge

[SactownHrtBrks8]

Using per 40 stats to compare a player who plays 27 mins is a bit misleading....

ya Haywood is the GOAT

[nate33]

Using per 40 stats to compare a player who plays 27 mins is a bit misleading....

Not when all the other second-tier centers play 28-33 minutes.

[nate33]

At least until Horford comes around.

No doubt. Horford is going to be a real good player. I like him a lot.

[nate33]

-= original quote snipped =-



i don't know about you but to me it looks like their stats are similar. bogut got him in assist while brenda has the block edge

Fair enough. Their stats are similar. Haywood's PER is 0.3 points higher but I cede that that is essentially meaningless.

But my point still stands that they are two statisitcally similar players, but one is an elite defender whereas the other is about average, maybe slightly above. I'm also comparing the best stretch of Bogut's career to an ordinary stretch of Haywood this season. If I went and found Haywood's best 10-game stretch, it would likely be better.

[Cevap]

-= original quote snipped =-


Fair enough. Their stats are similar. Haywood's PER is 0.3 points higher but I cede that that is essentially meaningless.

But my point still stands that they are two statisitcally similar players, but one is an elite defender whereas the other is about average, maybe slightly above. I'm also comparing the best stretch of Bogut's career to an ordinary stretch of Haywood this season. If I went and found Haywood's best 10-game stretch, it would likely be better.

dude, he posts a 10 and 8, sure he's got a good defense but for example Z posts 13 and 10, dalembert a 12 and 10, horford 9 and 10, emeka 13 and 10 so it's not like he's above these other players. they're all in the same mix more and less

[TheKingOfVa360]

-= original quote snipped =-



in the NBA? Hands down? I'd go with he is the best center on the Wizards hands down lol

sorry about that


I meant in the East

[hoopsdownlow]

how can you argue with all that spreadsheet :O

[barelyawake]

dude, he posts a 10 and 8, sure he's got a good defense but for example Z posts 13 and 10, dalembert a 12 and 10, horford 9 and 10, emeka 13 and 10 so it's not like he's above these other players.

Now, compare the only stat that matters... wins. Haywood has easily been the primary reason for winning games in more games this year than ANY other center in the East except Howard. He has been the primary reason for many a Wiz win. Can the same be said of Dale? Players can have the same stats and have dramatically different effects on a game. The reason being that stats are only a shadow of what actually happened -- not the whole story.

The reason you don't know the extent to which Haywood has developed his game is because it doesn't fit into the media's nice little package of how the season was supposed to go. The Wiz, in their opinion backed by "stats," were supposed to miss the playoffs. They got it wrong and now don't even give the Wiz pub when they back-to-back on the Celts -- because it doesn't fit their preseason story (which, of course, is in keeping with the "Wiz are better without Arenas" story... because that downplays how good they can be when Arenas returns).

[Pats19andO]

No. Per or not, he is not the second best center in the east this season.

Because?

...so who is? And where do you think Haywood ranks?

Mind you I only ask to judge the media bias, because the answer to the question posed in the title is blatantly obvious. It's of course.

16th
PER is quite possibly the worst stat ever.

[Pats19andO]

dude, he posts a 10 and 8, sure he's got a good defense but for example Z posts 13 and 10, dalembert a 12 and 10, horford 9 and 10, emeka 13 and 10 so it's not like he's above these other players.

Now, compare the only stat that matters... wins. Haywood has easily been the primary reason for winning games in more games this year than ANY other center in the East except Howard. He has been the primary reason for many a Wiz win. Can the same be said of Dale? Players can have the same stats and have dramatically different effects on a game. The reason being that stats are only a shadow of what actually happened -- not the whole story.

The reason you don't know the extent to which Haywood has developed his game is because it doesn't fit into the media's nice little package of how the season was supposed to go. The Wiz, in their opinion backed by "stats," were supposed to miss the playoffs. They got it wrong and now don't even give the Wiz pub when they back-to-back on the Celts -- because it doesn't fit their preseason story (which, of course, is in keeping with the "Wiz are better without Arenas" story... because that downplays how good they can be when Arenas returns).

all hail the ultimate homer

[barelyawake]

It's "homerish" exactly why? Because the media hasn't told you? Make an argument. Name calling doesn't demean me. It demeans yourself. Haywood has been the "player of the game" from Wiz fans watching the games in many a game this year. Again, what other center besides Howard can claim that? And to what extent. We keep a record running total of "player of the games." Compare those to other centers. It's not "homerish" to explain to you the truth. I'm sorry you don't understand that it is the truth.