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https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGM&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0042300136&PlayerID=1628378&RangeType=0&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612739&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

There are all of Mitchell's 22 made FG from game 6 and no exaggeration, refs easily coulda called an And1 on at least 14 of those FG.

Residual-Heat wrote:Magic were 1st in the league in FTrate in the regular season this season and top 5 last season (with a rookie and second year player leading them)... They are good at drawing fouls.

Great thought. Let's look at the numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/four-factors

Regular season free throw rate
Orlando: .287
Cleveland: .234

Playoffs free throw rate
Orlando: .291
Cleveland: .224

It might be best to look elsewhere for the source of the Cavs problems.

JujitsuFlip wrote:There are all of Mitchell's 22 made FG from game 6 and no exaggeration, refs easily coulda called an And1 on at least 14 of those FG.

And yet, for some strange reason, Mitchell didn't even look at the refs on almost all of them. There's the one play he got hit on the head and made a motion to it -- he definitely should've gotten a call there. But for most of them he made a tough finesse finish and moved on.

It's almost like he understands how playoff basketball works.

Anyway, arguing about this is hopeless. It's the last refuge of frustrated fans. I do it sometimes too. We've all been there. Just win game 7 and forget all about it.

Rainwater wrote:

mcfly1204 wrote:

Rainwater wrote:
True but Utah had some pretty talented squads. A DWade level player would have done so much more with such a team.

Yeah, Utah would have had a dynasty with DWade, Gobert, and Clarkson.

Don’t know about dynasty but Prime Clarkson, prime Gobert, prime Conley, prime Ingles, Bojan Bogdanović with Wade should do much more. Hell, Edwards might do much more with Conley and Gobert than Mitchell.

Eh. The probably do better, but it's not like they would've been close to a title even with a prime Wade IMO

Rainwater wrote:

thelead wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:
Magic fans are in for a very rude awakening as to how *good* their players are going to be at drawing those *initiating contact* fouls in Boston should they get past the Cavs.

lol... there is literally one fan in here talking crazy and we're being generalized. I have the Celts in 5 if we happen to get by the Cavs. I fully expect to get beaten badly in most of the games too.... Kristaps being out is huge though.

Most logical Magic fans thought the Magic had no shot against the Cavs more less the Celtics lol

You mean cynical Magic fans. It obviously wasn't logical to think that. Win or lose, they've gone the distance against a beatable team.

tooler wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:There are all of Mitchell's 22 made FG from game 6 and no exaggeration, refs easily coulda called an And1 on at least 14 of those FG.

And yet, for some strange reason, Mitchell didn't even look at the refs on almost all of them. There's the one play he got hit on the head and made a motion to it -- he definitely should've gotten a call there. But for most of them he made a tough finesse finish and moved on.

It's almost like he understands how playoff basketball works.

Anyway, arguing about this is hopeless. It's the last refuge of frustrated fans. I do it sometimes too. We've all been there. Just win game 7 and forget all about it.

It's not how playoff basketball works if touch fouls are being called the other way lol

tooler wrote:

Residual-Heat wrote:Magic were 1st in the league in FTrate in the regular season this season and top 5 last season (with a rookie and second year player leading them)... They are good at drawing fouls.

Great thought. Let's look at the numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/four-factors

Regular season free throw rate
Orlando: .287
Cleveland: .234

Playoffs free throw rate
Orlando: .291
Cleveland: .224

It might be best to look elsewhere for the source of the Cavs problems.

JujitsuFlip wrote:

tooler wrote:

JujitsuFlip wrote:There are all of Mitchell's 22 made FG from game 6 and no exaggeration, refs easily coulda called an And1 on at least 14 of those FG.

And yet, for some strange reason, Mitchell didn't even look at the refs on almost all of them. There's the one play he got hit on the head and made a motion to it -- he definitely should've gotten a call there. But for most of them he made a tough finesse finish and moved on.

It's almost like he understands how playoff basketball works.

Anyway, arguing about this is hopeless. It's the last refuge of frustrated fans. I do it sometimes too. We've all been there. Just win game 7 and forget all about it.

It's not how playoff basketball works if touch fouls are being called the other way lol

But Paolo and Franz weren’t getting touch fouls, Cavaliers players were constantly swiping their arms. Magic players weren’t hitting the arms of Cavaliers players. The Magic definitely drew more contact in game six.

Paolo is getting fewer whistles in the playoffs. His FTr is 397 in the regular season and 256 in the playoffs.

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J the Drafter wrote:But Paolo and Franz weren’t getting touch fouls, Cavaliers players were constantly swiping their arms. Magic players weren’t hitting the arms of Cavaliers players. The Magic definitely drew more contact in game six.

There was a great example where Mobley hacked Paolo across the arms with 3:05 to go. (He missed the free throw.)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&GameEventID=620&GameID=0042300136&Season=2023-24&flag=1&title=Banchero%205%27%20Driving%20Layup%20(23%20PTS)

The story of the game 6 was the Magic players sticking to the game plan on Mitchell. Arms up, keep your feet moving, live with the finesse shots. No one pulled on him when he blew by. No one got frustrated and started hacking him. Just the same execution until 50 points.

It was really impressive for a young team. Coach Mosley deserves some credit there.

It's funny that Cavs fans think their is a conspiracy by all the refs, not to give them calls.

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I watched a Cavs podcast and even the beatwriters were saying basically what I was saying, that Cavs may want it to be called more evenly when it comes to playing physical, but if you think Donovan on a bum knee was driving recklessly to get foul calls or that Garland plays physical or that anybody else on the team was making aggressive move, in the heart of hearts, there wasn't that many fouls missed. I even re-watched the game and I saw maybe two fouls on Mitchell drives that could've been and1's, but it wasn't some "every game should have 26-26 FTs" stuff.

But hey, I guess on RealGM we're just winning 'cause of fouls. Funny.

As a totally neutral fan who like both teams, I thought the whistles were fair. It was a very physical game

As a totally neutral fan who like both teams, I thought the whistles were fair. It was a very physical game

tooler wrote:

Residual-Heat wrote:Magic were 1st in the league in FTrate in the regular season this season and top 5 last season (with a rookie and second year player leading them)... They are good at drawing fouls.

Great thought. Let's look at the numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/four-factors

Regular season free throw rate
Orlando: .287
Cleveland: .234

Playoffs free throw rate
Orlando: .291
Cleveland: .224

It might be best to look elsewhere for the source of the Cavs problems.

The entire point is that the playoffs aren't normally called like the regular season. If they were, the Raptors never would have had to trade for Leonard as Derozan and Lowry would've got them to the Finals via the free throw line, Harden would've beaten the Warriors on multiple occasions, and no team out West would have a chance against Luka.

I'm done debating this though, if Allen isn't healthy for game 7, and you advance to play the Celtics, you'll see.

jbk1234 wrote:

tooler wrote:

Residual-Heat wrote:Magic were 1st in the league in FTrate in the regular season this season and top 5 last season (with a rookie and second year player leading them)... They are good at drawing fouls.

Great thought. Let's look at the numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/four-factors

Regular season free throw rate
Orlando: .287
Cleveland: .234

Playoffs free throw rate
Orlando: .291
Cleveland: .224

It might be best to look elsewhere for the source of the Cavs problems.

The entire point is that the playoffs aren't normally called like the regular season.

I know this, although I’m not sure all your fellow fans know this.

The point is it’s all relative. Refs allow more physical play but also call fewer fouls to offset it. So defenders ramp up the contact and the refs are back to calling more fouls again. The end result for this series? Pretty much the same free throw rates that these teams are used to. They are who we thought they were.

I accept that it’s frustrating to play a team that knows how to draw fouls and defend without fouling. In the regular season you probably don’t notice those kinds of teams because it’s one game. In a 7 game series I can imagine how annoying it must be. I don’t even have to imagine since the Magic were one of the softest teams in the league in the Vucevic era.

We’re down to one game now so who knows what that crew will call.

tooler wrote:

jbk1234 wrote:

tooler wrote:Great thought. Let's look at the numbers: https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/four-factors

Regular season free throw rate
Orlando: .287
Cleveland: .234

Playoffs free throw rate
Orlando: .291
Cleveland: .224

It might be best to look elsewhere for the source of the Cavs problems.

The entire point is that the playoffs aren't normally called like the regular season.

I know this, although I’m not sure all your fellow fans know this.

The point is it’s all relative. Refs allow more physical play but also call fewer fouls to offset it. So defenders ramp up the contact and the refs are back to calling more fouls again. The end result for this series? Pretty much the same free throw rates that these teams are used to. They are who we thought they were.

I accept that it’s frustrating to play a team that knows how to draw fouls and defend without fouling. In the regular season you probably don’t notice those kinds of teams because it’s one game. In a 7 game series I can imagine how annoying it must be. I don’t even have to imagine since the Magic were one of the softest teams in the league in the Vucevic era.

We’re down to one game now so who knows what that crew will call.

How do the numbers look if you include all of the teams that made the Playoffs this year?

mcfly1204 wrote:How do the numbers look if you include all of the teams that made the Playoffs this year?

You can click the link and mess around with the numbers. It looks like wider range than normal.

(The truth is that due to the small sample size it’s completely coincidental that the Magic and Cavs have almost exactly the same free throw rate as the regular season. I just think it’s amusing because it doesn’t follow the intended narrative.)

Honestly, 1 PM start tomorrow is pretty dumb given it's going to be the only game.

All of this and the series would be over already if the Magic’s announcer (Jeff Turner) didn't jinx Franz in game 5... "Franz is 6 for 6 tonight from the line" bricks next free-throw and Magic lose by 1. Thanks Jeff.