Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[jazzfan1971]

Feels like someone had had an axe to grind for a while and the second Jokic stumbled they jumped on him.

[DaFan334]

He doesn't seem like he belongs on the 3 mvp category of players.

He rightfully won but a lot of it also has to do with the field, i.e. sga too young embiid injured. Curry 2022 injured and missed end of the season mostly.
Like Kobe for example didn't win more bc the field was good, curry bc he teamed up with kd etc.


Like I love the joker but if he flames out vs the wolves, there's definitely a disconnect between him and the rest of the 3 time + winners. Maybe it won't look so off by the time he retires though. That's probably why.

LeBron won 4 MVPs before won his second championship. Kareem won *6* MVPs before he won his second championship. Still a lot of time for his team to have more post-season success.

Read on Twitter

I love the team around him, but this speaks volumes to how great he is...

[aliasxn]

The conversation of him being in the tier of Lebron/Jordan/Bird/Duncan needs to end. There was no "bad match ups" for those guys that made them look this bad. When you are a generational player your talent supersedes any match up.

Like Lebron when he lost in the finals against Dallas or how Jordan hadn't won anything until Phil and Pippen showed up or how the 8th seed Grizzlies beat Duncan's 1st seed Spurs?

The difference is once those guys started winning they were completely dominant, Jokic is getting shut down by KAT and Naz Reid, and a complete pylon on defense.

They didn't "start winning", they had a team that was capable of winning. Until Shaq won his ring with the Lakers (with maybe the goat coach and a top 10~15 player of all time), he got swept by Hakeem, David Robinson and Karl Malone. Jordan won a total of 3 games against the Celtics in playoffs in the 80s (he "started winning" when he had maybe the goat coach and a top 50 player of all time). Duncan was already a champion when he got swept by the Lakers, and Shaq had back to back 40/20 games. LeBron against the Mavs in 2001... The list goes on. We tend to put these players on a pedestal but they had their share of oopsies too, and other than Jordan in the 80's they all had better teams than Joker does right now.

[hardenASG13]

So I guess other all time greats never lost.

They did, and Denver hasn't lost yet. But he has won 0 series vs. a 50 win team. Here's a list (it could be expanded) of some other all time greats and how many times they won series against 50 win teams. Their teammates were largely better, but it just leaves something to be desired for a guy who's been talked about like Jokic has on here.

https://fadeawayworld.net/10-nba-stars-who-have-beaten-the-most-50-win-teams-in-playoffs-history

The Nuggets beat a 49 win Clippers team in a shortened 73 game season. A 50 win team has a 60.98 winning %. The 2020 Clippers had a 68.1 winning %. The Nuggets also beat the Utah Jazz that year who had a 61.1 winning %.

Also, look at the teammates the guys on that list had. Kobe and Shaq had each other, and Shaq played with Penny, Horace Grant, and Dwayne Wade. Kobe played with Pau Gasol. Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together and when Jordan and Pippen didn't have Rodman they had Horace Grant, and when Dennis Rodman didn't have Jordan and Pippen he had Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars or David Robinson. Duncan got to play with Robinson, Parker, Ginobili, and Kawhi, and Duncan won 3 of those series when he was 37 averaging 16, 9, and 2 in the playoffs. Magic got to play with Kareem and James Worthy. Lebron got to play with Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis. Curry and Durant got to play with each other and Klay and Draymond, and Durant got to play with Westbrook, Harden, Irving, and Booker.

You know who isn't on that list? Hakeem. Does that mean that Rodman and Pippen are better players than him, or did they have better teammates?

Jokic has never had a teammate make an all-star team or all-NBA team. Murray is averaging 13, 7, and 3, on 36.5 TS% against the Timberwolves. He has a PER of 11.7 throughout the playoffs, a +/- of -7.9, a VORP of 0, and a BPM of -2.4.

I'm aware of all this. I don't put much into the bubble. For example, I'm not sure Jokic is the type of leader to go into LA on the road in game 7 vs the clippers and win. Even so that'd be 1 series win vs a 50 win team. His starting lineup, despite not having an all star, is among the most balanced and talented in the league. Having a second guy who's been an all star hasn't meant much for a lot of teams. I just think it's kind of glaring for a guy with 3 MVPs, who many here compare to MJ/Shaq/Lebrons peak to have 0 playoff series wins vs 50 win teams. It leaves alot to be desired in just exactly how much he's proven.

[lessthanjake]

They did, and Denver hasn't lost yet. But he has won 0 series vs. a 50 win team. Here's a list (it could be expanded) of some other all time greats and how many times they won series against 50 win teams. Their teammates were largely better, but it just leaves something to be desired for a guy who's been talked about like Jokic has on here.

https://fadeawayworld.net/10-nba-stars-who-have-beaten-the-most-50-win-teams-in-playoffs-history

The Nuggets beat a 49 win Clippers team in a shortened 73 game season. A 50 win team has a 60.98 winning %. The 2020 Clippers had a 68.1 winning %. The Nuggets also beat the Utah Jazz that year who had a 61.1 winning %.

Also, look at the teammates the guys on that list had. Kobe and Shaq had each other, and Shaq played with Penny, Horace Grant, and Dwayne Wade. Kobe played with Pau Gasol. Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together and when Jordan and Pippen didn't have Rodman they had Horace Grant, and when Dennis Rodman didn't have Jordan and Pippen he had Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars or David Robinson. Duncan got to play with Robinson, Parker, Ginobili, and Kawhi, and Duncan won 3 of those series when he was 37 averaging 16, 9, and 2 in the playoffs. Magic got to play with Kareem and James Worthy. Lebron got to play with Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis. Curry and Durant got to play with each other and Klay and Draymond, and Durant got to play with Westbrook, Harden, Irving, and Booker.

You know who isn't on that list? Hakeem. Does that mean that Rodman and Pippen are better players than him, or did they have better teammates?

Jokic has never had a teammate make an all-star team or all-NBA team. Murray is averaging 13, 7, and 3, on 36.5 TS% against the Timberwolves. He has a PER of 11.7 throughout the playoffs, a +/- of -7.9, a VORP of 0, and a BPM of -2.4.

I'm aware of all this. I don't put much into the bubble. For example, I'm not sure Jokic is the type of leader to go into LA on the road in game 7 vs the clippers and win. Even so that'd be 1 series win vs a 50 win team. His starting lineup, despite not having an all star, is among the most balanced and talented in the league. Having a second guy who's been an all star hasn't meant much for a lot of teams. I just think it's kind of glaring for a guy with 3 MVPs, who many here compare to MJ/Shaq/Lebrons peak to have 0 playoff series wins vs 50 win teams. It leaves alot to be desired in just exactly how much he's proven.

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here. Like, the point is so narrowly defined as to be essentially meaningless.

Jokic’s team beat two teams that won at a 50-win pace in the 2020 playoffs, but since it was a shortened season you’re not counting it.

So then what *are* you counting? Well, they lost to 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022. But Jamal Murray was out for both of those and Jokic’s supporting cast was genuinely abysmal. Then he gets a decent supporting cast and they win the title in 2023, but without facing a 50+ win team. And now they’re in the middle of a series against a 50+ win team. The only series against a 50+ win team that Jokic has lost while having Jamal Murray was in 2019 against the Trailblazers—in a series where the Nuggets barely lost (they lost in 7 games, in a series they outscored their opponent in) and Jokic was not really in his prime and also was extremely good in the series. Not only was Jokic really good in that series, but the Nuggets outscored the Blazers with Jokic on in 5 of the 7 games, and overall outscored them by 10 points per 48 minutes with Jokic on the floor.

So what is your point here? Are you trying to indict the greatness of Jokic based on what he did in the playoffs against 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022—when he had teams that were comprised virtually entirely of players that barely even belonged in the NBA? Or are you trying to go at Jokic for losing to the Blazers in 2019, when he wasn’t in his prime yet and played a very close series where he was great and his team was clearly superior when he was on the court? Because those are the only series that you actually have decided to include. And, of course, the failure to include the 2020 Jazz and 2020 Clippers—who Jokic did beat and who won at a 50+ win pace in that season—would seem to make any argument like this obviously silly.

[hardenASG13]

The Nuggets beat a 49 win Clippers team in a shortened 73 game season. A 50 win team has a 60.98 winning %. The 2020 Clippers had a 68.1 winning %. The Nuggets also beat the Utah Jazz that year who had a 61.1 winning %.

Also, look at the teammates the guys on that list had. Kobe and Shaq had each other, and Shaq played with Penny, Horace Grant, and Dwayne Wade. Kobe played with Pau Gasol. Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together and when Jordan and Pippen didn't have Rodman they had Horace Grant, and when Dennis Rodman didn't have Jordan and Pippen he had Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars or David Robinson. Duncan got to play with Robinson, Parker, Ginobili, and Kawhi, and Duncan won 3 of those series when he was 37 averaging 16, 9, and 2 in the playoffs. Magic got to play with Kareem and James Worthy. Lebron got to play with Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis. Curry and Durant got to play with each other and Klay and Draymond, and Durant got to play with Westbrook, Harden, Irving, and Booker.

You know who isn't on that list? Hakeem. Does that mean that Rodman and Pippen are better players than him, or did they have better teammates?

Jokic has never had a teammate make an all-star team or all-NBA team. Murray is averaging 13, 7, and 3, on 36.5 TS% against the Timberwolves. He has a PER of 11.7 throughout the playoffs, a +/- of -7.9, a VORP of 0, and a BPM of -2.4.

I'm aware of all this. I don't put much into the bubble. For example, I'm not sure Jokic is the type of leader to go into LA on the road in game 7 vs the clippers and win. Even so that'd be 1 series win vs a 50 win team. His starting lineup, despite not having an all star, is among the most balanced and talented in the league. Having a second guy who's been an all star hasn't meant much for a lot of teams. I just think it's kind of glaring for a guy with 3 MVPs, who many here compare to MJ/Shaq/Lebrons peak to have 0 playoff series wins vs 50 win teams. It leaves alot to be desired in just exactly how much he's proven.

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here. Like, the point is so narrowly defined as to be essentially meaningless.

Jokic’s team beat two teams that won at a 50-win pace in the 2020 playoffs, but since it was a shortened season you’re not counting it.

So then what *are* you counting? Well, they lost to 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022. But Jamal Murray was out for both of those and his supporting cast was genuinely abysmal. Then he gets a good supporting cast and they win the title in 2023, but without facing a 50+ win team. And now they’re in the middle of a series against a 50+ win team. The only series against a 50+ win team that Jokic has lost while having Jamal Murray was in 2019 against the Trailblazers—in a series where the Nuggets barely lost (they lost in 7 games, in a series they outscored their opponent in) and Jokic was not really in his prime and also was extremely good in the series. Not only was Jokic really good in that series, but the Nuggets outscored the Blazers with Jokic on in 5 of the 7 games, and overall outscored them by 10 points per 48 minutes with Jokic on the floor.

So what is your point here? Are you trying to indict the greatness of Jokic based on what he did in the playoffs against 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022—when he had teams that were comprised virtually entirely of players that barely even belonged in the NBA? Or are you trying to go at Jokic for losing to the Blazers in 2019, when he wasn’t in his prime yet and played a very close series where he was great and his team was clearly superior when he was on the court? Because those are the only series that you actually have decided to include. And, of course, the failure to include the 2020 Jazz and 2020 Clippers—who Jokic did beat and who won at a 50+ win pace in that season—would seem to make any argument like this obviously silly.

My point is he's never beat a good team in the playoffs. If you put more into the bubble, have at it. Alot of weird stuff happened there and there were no fans. I'd like to see him beat some good teams before considering him for the discussions that popped up on this board all season based on last year's "historic run." I wasn't too impressed with it due to lack of quality opponents faced, and I think alot is being exposed now that he's playing one. We'll see how it finishes out, but this is kind of how I thought it'd look when he got up against a legit team.

[lessthanjake]

I'm aware of all this. I don't put much into the bubble. For example, I'm not sure Jokic is the type of leader to go into LA on the road in game 7 vs the clippers and win. Even so that'd be 1 series win vs a 50 win team. His starting lineup, despite not having an all star, is among the most balanced and talented in the league. Having a second guy who's been an all star hasn't meant much for a lot of teams. I just think it's kind of glaring for a guy with 3 MVPs, who many here compare to MJ/Shaq/Lebrons peak to have 0 playoff series wins vs 50 win teams. It leaves alot to be desired in just exactly how much he's proven.

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here. Like, the point is so narrowly defined as to be essentially meaningless.

Jokic’s team beat two teams that won at a 50-win pace in the 2020 playoffs, but since it was a shortened season you’re not counting it.

So then what *are* you counting? Well, they lost to 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022. But Jamal Murray was out for both of those and his supporting cast was genuinely abysmal. Then he gets a good supporting cast and they win the title in 2023, but without facing a 50+ win team. And now they’re in the middle of a series against a 50+ win team. The only series against a 50+ win team that Jokic has lost while having Jamal Murray was in 2019 against the Trailblazers—in a series where the Nuggets barely lost (they lost in 7 games, in a series they outscored their opponent in) and Jokic was not really in his prime and also was extremely good in the series. Not only was Jokic really good in that series, but the Nuggets outscored the Blazers with Jokic on in 5 of the 7 games, and overall outscored them by 10 points per 48 minutes with Jokic on the floor.

So what is your point here? Are you trying to indict the greatness of Jokic based on what he did in the playoffs against 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022—when he had teams that were comprised virtually entirely of players that barely even belonged in the NBA? Or are you trying to go at Jokic for losing to the Blazers in 2019, when he wasn’t in his prime yet and played a very close series where he was great and his team was clearly superior when he was on the court? Because those are the only series that you actually have decided to include. And, of course, the failure to include the 2020 Jazz and 2020 Clippers—who Jokic did beat and who won at a 50+ win pace in that season—would seem to make any argument like this obviously silly.

My point is he's never beat a good team in the playoffs. If you put more into the bubble, have at it. Alot of weird stuff happened there and there were no fans. I'd like to see him beat some good teams before considering him for the discussions that popped up on this board all season based on last year's "historic run." I wasn't too impressed with it due to lack of quality opponents faced, and I think alot is being exposed now that he's playing one. We'll see how it finishes out, but this is kind of how I thought it'd look when he got up against a legit team.

And my point is that you’ve narrowly defined things to the point of meaninglessness. Like, clearly he has beaten a good team in 2020, but you don’t count it because it was the bubble. And then he won a title, but you are defining good team in a way that means he somehow implausibly managed to win an NBA title without facing a single good team. And then beyond that, he’s young enough that we are just left with essentially no meaningful data points—or at least not data points that we can reasonably draw a negative conclusion from.

Your entire point boils down to handwaving away his successes and then drawing a negative conclusion from him losing to good teams a couple times with a roster filled with players that can barely stay in the league, and losing once with a decent roster where he played great (despite not being in his prime) and dominated the opponent in the minutes he played but his team lost an incredibly close series anyways. Like, really drill down into what your point is relying on and consider whether it is meaningful in any way. I think you’ll find that it’s not.

[Yoshun]

These threads....

This TWolves team is loaded with talent.

[JRoy]

No.

Jokic is the best layer in the world.

There are several just below him but he is clearly the best.

[hardenASG13]

I don’t really understand what point you’re making here. Like, the point is so narrowly defined as to be essentially meaningless.

Jokic’s team beat two teams that won at a 50-win pace in the 2020 playoffs, but since it was a shortened season you’re not counting it.

So then what *are* you counting? Well, they lost to 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022. But Jamal Murray was out for both of those and his supporting cast was genuinely abysmal. Then he gets a good supporting cast and they win the title in 2023, but without facing a 50+ win team. And now they’re in the middle of a series against a 50+ win team. The only series against a 50+ win team that Jokic has lost while having Jamal Murray was in 2019 against the Trailblazers—in a series where the Nuggets barely lost (they lost in 7 games, in a series they outscored their opponent in) and Jokic was not really in his prime and also was extremely good in the series. Not only was Jokic really good in that series, but the Nuggets outscored the Blazers with Jokic on in 5 of the 7 games, and overall outscored them by 10 points per 48 minutes with Jokic on the floor.

So what is your point here? Are you trying to indict the greatness of Jokic based on what he did in the playoffs against 50+ win teams in 2021 and 2022—when he had teams that were comprised virtually entirely of players that barely even belonged in the NBA? Or are you trying to go at Jokic for losing to the Blazers in 2019, when he wasn’t in his prime yet and played a very close series where he was great and his team was clearly superior when he was on the court? Because those are the only series that you actually have decided to include. And, of course, the failure to include the 2020 Jazz and 2020 Clippers—who Jokic did beat and who won at a 50+ win pace in that season—would seem to make any argument like this obviously silly.

My point is he's never beat a good team in the playoffs. If you put more into the bubble, have at it. Alot of weird stuff happened there and there were no fans. I'd like to see him beat some good teams before considering him for the discussions that popped up on this board all season based on last year's "historic run." I wasn't too impressed with it due to lack of quality opponents faced, and I think alot is being exposed now that he's playing one. We'll see how it finishes out, but this is kind of how I thought it'd look when he got up against a legit team.

And my point is that you’ve narrowly defined things to the point of meaninglessness. Like, clearly he has beaten a good team in 2020, but you don’t count it because it was the bubble. And then he won a title, but you are defining good team in a way that means he somehow implausibly managed to win an NBA title without facing a single good team. And then beyond that, he’s young enough that we are just left with essentially no meaningful data points—or at least not data points that we can reasonably draw a negative conclusion from.

Your entire point boils down to handwaving away his successes and then drawing a negative conclusion from him losing to good teams a couple times with a roster filled with players that can barely stay in the league, and losing once with a decent roster where he played great (despite not being in his prime) and dominated the opponent in the minutes he played but his team lost an incredibly close series anyways. Like, really drill down into what your point is relying on and consider whether it is meaningful in any way. I think you’ll find that it’s not.

I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

Who do you think was a good team that he beat last season?

[lessthanjake]

My point is he's never beat a good team in the playoffs. If you put more into the bubble, have at it. Alot of weird stuff happened there and there were no fans. I'd like to see him beat some good teams before considering him for the discussions that popped up on this board all season based on last year's "historic run." I wasn't too impressed with it due to lack of quality opponents faced, and I think alot is being exposed now that he's playing one. We'll see how it finishes out, but this is kind of how I thought it'd look when he got up against a legit team.

And my point is that you’ve narrowly defined things to the point of meaninglessness. Like, clearly he has beaten a good team in 2020, but you don’t count it because it was the bubble. And then he won a title, but you are defining good team in a way that means he somehow implausibly managed to win an NBA title without facing a single good team. And then beyond that, he’s young enough that we are just left with essentially no meaningful data points—or at least not data points that we can reasonably draw a negative conclusion from.

Your entire point boils down to handwaving away his successes and then drawing a negative conclusion from him losing to good teams a couple times with a roster filled with players that can barely stay in the league, and losing once with a decent roster where he played great (despite not being in his prime) and dominated the opponent in the minutes he played but his team lost an incredibly close series anyways. Like, really drill down into what your point is relying on and consider whether it is meaningful in any way. I think you’ll find that it’s not.

I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

First of all, it is not possible to win a title without playing good teams. Secondly, I’ve just never understood the idea that the bubble can just be ignored. Was it exactly the same as other years? No. But it was different for everyone. It’s not like the Nuggets had an unfair advantage, and you’ve not even posited any reason why the things that made the bubble different would’ve made things relatively better for the Nuggets. You’re just saying “It was different in some way, and therefore doesn’t count.” That is absolutely handwaving it away. It was the NBA playoffs and the Nuggets beat a team that had won at a 56-win pace, had a 6.66 SRS, and was the pre-playoffs title favorite and the title favorite going into that series with the Nuggets. Just totally absurd not to count it.

Meanwhile, I don’t see you at all defending the idea of downplaying Jokic for the losses to 50+ win teams in 2019, 2021, and 2022. There’s really nothing to downplay there, because his supporting cast in 2021 and 2022 was outlandishly abysmal, and his team dominated the series in 2019 when he was on the court. So then is your point *entirely* based on the first two games of this Timberwolves series? Does that not strike you as an obviously premature argument? The series isn’t over. And even if they lose, is it not just one series? You’re not really defending the idea that Jokic should be criticized for losing any other series, and basing a broad player critique on losing one playoff series is obviously silly.

[Darthlukey]

Feels like someone had had an axe to grind for a while and the second Jokic stumbled they jumped on him.

Almost as if there is no objectivity and may even be an agenda?

[hardenASG13]

And my point is that you’ve narrowly defined things to the point of meaninglessness. Like, clearly he has beaten a good team in 2020, but you don’t count it because it was the bubble. And then he won a title, but you are defining good team in a way that means he somehow implausibly managed to win an NBA title without facing a single good team. And then beyond that, he’s young enough that we are just left with essentially no meaningful data points—or at least not data points that we can reasonably draw a negative conclusion from.

Your entire point boils down to handwaving away his successes and then drawing a negative conclusion from him losing to good teams a couple times with a roster filled with players that can barely stay in the league, and losing once with a decent roster where he played great (despite not being in his prime) and dominated the opponent in the minutes he played but his team lost an incredibly close series anyways. Like, really drill down into what your point is relying on and consider whether it is meaningful in any way. I think you’ll find that it’s not.

I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

First of all, it is not possible to win a title without playing good teams. Secondly, I’ve just never understood the idea that the bubble can just be ignored. Was it exactly the same as other years? No. But it was different for everyone. It’s not like the Nuggets had an unfair advantage, and you’ve not even posited any reason why the things that made the bubble different would’ve made things relatively better for the Nuggets. You’re just saying “It was different in some way, and therefore doesn’t count.” That is absolutely handwaving it away. It was the NBA playoffs and the Nuggets beat a team that had won at a 56-win pace, had a 6.66 SRS, and was the pre-playoffs title favorite and the title favorite going into that series with the Nuggets. Just totally absurd not to count it.

Meanwhile, I don’t see you at all defending the idea of downplaying Jokic for the losses to 50+ win teams in 2019, 2021, and 2022. There’s really nothing to downplay there, because his supporting cast in 2021 and 2022 was outlandishly abysmal, and his team dominated the series in 2019 when he was on the court. So then is your point *entirely* based on the first two games of this Timberwolves series? Does that not strike you as an obviously premature argument? The series isn’t over. And even if they lose, is it not just one series? You’re not really defending the idea that Jokic should be criticized for losing any other series, and basing a broad player critique on one playoff series is obviously silly.

So can you name a good team Denver beat last year? If not, what's so impressive about it?

The point about the bubble is this. Lots of players feed off crowds. Jokic isn't one of then. There were no crowds there. I've just never seen him go into a hostile environment in a big game and take down a team I respect. Simple as that. For me to consider a guy as having an all time peak, he's got to do that. Several times. He certainly has a chance in these next 2 games. If you want to give him credit for knocking of the clippers in the bubble, fine, that's one quality opponent beaten. He's 29.

I'm not basing it off one series. It's his overall body of work in the playoffs that hasn't impressed me nearly to the levels of those saying he's at all time peak. I've always been a critic of his ability to lead and dominate when needed against good teams, and of his defense which his been downright embarrassing vs. Minnesota, who is coincidentally the first quality team he's faced over these last 2 seasons. If I'm missing a team, again, please name them and give your reasoning.

I don't think the advanced stats encompass how a guy will rise or shrink in adversity. My eye test has lead me to question the annointment of accomplishments heaped upon him by this board as a result of last year. When your normal stuff isn't there. Which is what happens in bigtime playoff series, The best of the best can elevate in these scenarios. I've never seen him do that, and don't think he's the type of leader to do so. And this is just a second round series.

[NZB2323]

They did, and Denver hasn't lost yet. But he has won 0 series vs. a 50 win team. Here's a list (it could be expanded) of some other all time greats and how many times they won series against 50 win teams. Their teammates were largely better, but it just leaves something to be desired for a guy who's been talked about like Jokic has on here.

https://fadeawayworld.net/10-nba-stars-who-have-beaten-the-most-50-win-teams-in-playoffs-history

The Nuggets beat a 49 win Clippers team in a shortened 73 game season. A 50 win team has a 60.98 winning %. The 2020 Clippers had a 68.1 winning %. The Nuggets also beat the Utah Jazz that year who had a 61.1 winning %.

Also, look at the teammates the guys on that list had. Kobe and Shaq had each other, and Shaq played with Penny, Horace Grant, and Dwayne Wade. Kobe played with Pau Gasol. Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman played together and when Jordan and Pippen didn't have Rodman they had Horace Grant, and when Dennis Rodman didn't have Jordan and Pippen he had Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars or David Robinson. Duncan got to play with Robinson, Parker, Ginobili, and Kawhi, and Duncan won 3 of those series when he was 37 averaging 16, 9, and 2 in the playoffs. Magic got to play with Kareem and James Worthy. Lebron got to play with Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, and Anthony Davis. Curry and Durant got to play with each other and Klay and Draymond, and Durant got to play with Westbrook, Harden, Irving, and Booker.

You know who isn't on that list? Hakeem. Does that mean that Rodman and Pippen are better players than him, or did they have better teammates?

Jokic has never had a teammate make an all-star team or all-NBA team. Murray is averaging 13, 7, and 3, on 36.5 TS% against the Timberwolves. He has a PER of 11.7 throughout the playoffs, a +/- of -7.9, a VORP of 0, and a BPM of -2.4.

I'm aware of all this. I don't put much into the bubble. For example, I'm not sure Jokic is the type of leader to go into LA on the road in game 7 vs the clippers and win. Even so that'd be 1 series win vs a 50 win team. His starting lineup, despite not having an all star, is among the most balanced and talented in the league. Having a second guy who's been an all star hasn't meant much for a lot of teams. I just think it's kind of glaring for a guy with 3 MVPs, who many here compare to MJ/Shaq/Lebrons peak to have 0 playoff series wins vs 50 win teams. It leaves alot to be desired in just exactly how much he's proven.

You don’t think Jokic is capable of winning a game 7 against the Clippers in LA? Why? Because the Clippers are known for having a great homecourt advantage and winning game 7s?

Being in the bubble probably hurt the Nuggets because they have a great homecourt advantage at their altitude. And the Nuggets would have had HCA over the Jazz who were on a 50 win pace.

How many 50 win teams did Shaq beat without an all-star teammate? Give Jokic a Kobe or a Wade to play with and he’ll beat all the 50 win teams.

[monopoman]

LeBron won 4 MVPs before won his second championship. Kareem won *6* MVPs before he won his second championship. Still a lot of time for his team to have more post-season success.

Read on Twitter

I love the team around him, but this speaks volumes to how great he is...

He has a solid but not great team around him, go figure the one playoff run they had they looked insane and came home with the trophy, was the one where Murray was stepping up big time. When he is given another guy producing at an all-star level the team looks far better than they usually do.

Jokic is also hurt heavily in discussions like this because he looks so non-chalant at times, he doesn't have that insane ego to prove something, or a driving need to be the best like a Kobe or Jordan. Keep in mind very few players in any sport have produced what he has done without that type of mentality. The top 20 in NBA history is filled with many guys that took winning very seriously and seemed like someone took their dog and killed it when they lost.

I still think Jokic cares heavily about the game he just doesn't show it on the court as much.

[AleksandarN]

Read on Twitter

I love the team around him, but this speaks volumes to how great he is...

He has a solid but not great team around him, go figure the one playoff run they had they looked insane and came home with the trophy, was the one where Murray was stepping up big time. When he is given another guy producing at an all-star level the team looks far better than they usually do.

Jokic is also hurt heavily in discussions like this because he looks so non-chalant at times, he doesn't have that insane ego to prove something, or a driving need to be the best like a Kobe or Jordan. Keep in mind very few players in any sport have produced what he has done without that type of mentality. The top 20 in NBA history is filled with many guys that took winning very seriously and seemed like someone took their dog and killed it when they lost.

I still think Jokic cares heavily about the game he just doesn't show it on the court as much.

He doesn’t have the drive to be the best?? He doesn’t go from being a second pick to a top 20 player of all time without drive. Teammates say he is the hardest worker on the team.

[monopoman]

I love the team around him, but this speaks volumes to how great he is...

He has a solid but not great team around him, go figure the one playoff run they had they looked insane and came home with the trophy, was the one where Murray was stepping up big time. When he is given another guy producing at an all-star level the team looks far better than they usually do.

Jokic is also hurt heavily in discussions like this because he looks so non-chalant at times, he doesn't have that insane ego to prove something, or a driving need to be the best like a Kobe or Jordan. Keep in mind very few players in any sport have produced what he has done without that type of mentality. The top 20 in NBA history is filled with many guys that took winning very seriously and seemed like someone took their dog and killed it when they lost.

I still think Jokic cares heavily about the game he just doesn't show it on the court as much.

He doesn’t have the drive to be the best?? He doesn’t go from being a second pick to a top 20 player of all time without drive. Teammates say he is the hardest worker on the team.

That's not what I said I said he does he just doesn't show it you see other guys freak out or go ballistic when they lose a big series. Jordan hated anyone that said anything bad about him or doubted him for decades after I just don't see that with Jokic. He does have drive he just doesn't show the normal tell tale signs of top 20 players.

In fact the one he resembles most is probably Tim Duncan, another guy that had this easy going look to his game and didn't seem to get upset as often even if he lost in a rough finals.

Of course to make it to the NBA and be really good you need to devote yourself that is obvious. Nearly any guy that made it to the NBA on hype alone got exposed quickly.

[AleksandarN]

He has a solid but not great team around him, go figure the one playoff run they had they looked insane and came home with the trophy, was the one where Murray was stepping up big time. When he is given another guy producing at an all-star level the team looks far better than they usually do.

Jokic is also hurt heavily in discussions like this because he looks so non-chalant at times, he doesn't have that insane ego to prove something, or a driving need to be the best like a Kobe or Jordan. Keep in mind very few players in any sport have produced what he has done without that type of mentality. The top 20 in NBA history is filled with many guys that took winning very seriously and seemed like someone took their dog and killed it when they lost.

I still think Jokic cares heavily about the game he just doesn't show it on the court as much.

He doesn’t have the drive to be the best?? He doesn’t go from being a second pick to a top 20 player of all time without drive. Teammates say he is the hardest worker on the team.

That's not what I said I said he does he just doesn't show it you see other guys freak out or go ballistic when they lose a big series. Jordan hated anyone that said anything bad about him or doubted him for decades after I just don't see that with Jokic. He does have drive he just doesn't show the normal tell tale signs of top 20 players.

In fact the one he resembles most is probably Tim Duncan, another guy that had this easy going look to his game and didn't seem to get upset as often even if he lost in a rough finals.

Of course to make it to the NBA and be really good you need to devote yourself that is obvious. Nearly any guy that made it to the NBA on hype alone got exposed quickly.

Misread your post. My bad

[stillgotgame]

My point is he's never beat a good team in the playoffs. If you put more into the bubble, have at it. Alot of weird stuff happened there and there were no fans. I'd like to see him beat some good teams before considering him for the discussions that popped up on this board all season based on last year's "historic run." I wasn't too impressed with it due to lack of quality opponents faced, and I think alot is being exposed now that he's playing one. We'll see how it finishes out, but this is kind of how I thought it'd look when he got up against a legit team.

And my point is that you’ve narrowly defined things to the point of meaninglessness. Like, clearly he has beaten a good team in 2020, but you don’t count it because it was the bubble. And then he won a title, but you are defining good team in a way that means he somehow implausibly managed to win an NBA title without facing a single good team. And then beyond that, he’s young enough that we are just left with essentially no meaningful data points—or at least not data points that we can reasonably draw a negative conclusion from.

Your entire point boils down to handwaving away his successes and then drawing a negative conclusion from him losing to good teams a couple times with a roster filled with players that can barely stay in the league, and losing once with a decent roster where he played great (despite not being in his prime) and dominated the opponent in the minutes he played but his team lost an incredibly close series anyways. Like, really drill down into what your point is relying on and consider whether it is meaningful in any way. I think you’ll find that it’s not.

I'm not handwaving away anything, i didn't respect his title much last year, and have been saying so all season. Now he's facing some adversity and so far, is being embarrassed as a leader. The best of the best separate themselves with their leadership and how they handle adversity, adversity which comes when you get up against a team that's good enough to beat you. I've seen guys like MJ/Lebron/Shaq/Duncan raise their game in such situations alot of times. Jokics first Crack is going very poorly so far.

If you think playing in an empty gym in the bubble is the same as playing in front of a crowd, agree to disagree. Especially in a game 7. I don't think he's got the body language or energy of an all time great.

Who do you think was a good team that he beat last season?

Bumping this thread as Joker and the Nuggets are dominating tonight.

So you have Harden in your name and you're questioning an MVP shining in the playoffs, never beat a good team? How ironic, Harden is an all time choker. And body language wow, look in the mirror dude.

[art_tatum]

Making my space here for the game 4 the. 5 then 6 bump