2003 Tim Duncan is transported to 2024 NBA

[70sFan]

Guys are going on about Jokic carrying scraps to the 6th seed. They should take a look at the garbage Duncan was carrying to contention in 02, or to the title in 03. Even the 01 support cast was pretty pitiful.

It was much weaker and primitive league though.

Am I doing it right?

Sure, the league was weaker. But as I've told you, guys can transcend their league. There's plenty of reason Bill Russell wouldn't be a top 10 player today; he had no offense for example. Duncan's game translates just fine. I think he might not have quite as much longevity, because his lesser mobility in his old age would hinder him too much in certain match ups. But young Duncan was far more mobile and athletic than Jokic, even playing the 3 as a rookie.

I don't think you have the authority to decide which player would translate and which not, but do your things if you like.

[CD_41]

I think he's exactly where he was during his playing days. Top 5

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

[One_and_Done]

It was much weaker and primitive league though.

Am I doing it right?

Sure, the league was weaker. But as I've told you, guys can transcend their league. There's plenty of reason Bill Russell wouldn't be a top 10 player today; he had no offense for example. Duncan's game translates just fine. I think he might not have quite as much longevity, because his lesser mobility in his old age would hinder him too much in certain match ups. But young Duncan was far more mobile and athletic than Jokic, even playing the 3 as a rookie.

I don't think you have the authority to decide which player would translate and which not, but do your things if you like.

It's a message board where people are all here to post their views anonymously. I don't need "authority" to post here, and all I ask of anyone else is objectivity and reasoning, which is what they get from me. Unfortunately most people are slaves to their fandom and struggle to do this. That's why it's refreshing to hear older players like KG come out and show enough self awareness at times to realise "no, the league is alot better now, and most old timers would have really struggled for XYZ reasons.

[One_and_Done]

I think he's exactly where he was during his playing days. Top 5

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

[ChipotleWest]

I think he's exactly where he was during his playing days. Top 5

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

Maybe he should have, he's the only player to be the best player on a championship team 5 times since Jordan.

Ok the last one arguable, but when you consider defense and offense and leadership, he was. There really wasn't anybody scoring at a high average that year highest was Parker 16.7 Duncan second 15.1.

[CD_41]

I think he's exactly where he was during his playing days. Top 5

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

LOL, why did you pick only Kobe for the comparison? Come on, man. Just so you don't get confused: I have Duncan over Kobe in my all-time-rankings. No hater here.

Also we all know that an MVP does not equate being viewed as No 1.
Just look the the Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Nash or Iverson MVPs.

[One_and_Done]

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

LOL, why did you pick only Kobe for the comparison? Come on, man. Just so you don't get confused: I have Duncan over Kobe in my all-time-rankings. No hater here.

Also we all know that an MVP does not equate being viewed as No 1.
Just look the the Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Nash or Iverson MVPs.

Well the RPOY project on the PC board has him ranked as a #1, and there are also countless articles from thoughtful people over the years that made exactly those arguments.

[MiltownMadness]

Yeah I don't think Duncan would be head and shoulders above everybody, but he would consistently be in the MVP conversation and his team would win. What made Duncan great was the fact he was top 5 every year, that was an excellent point. Dominant defensive anchor who will give you 28/13 every night in todays league. Right up there with Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, etc. 2003 Duncan is in the MVP race with Jokic and Giannis, with a good chance of winning depending on regular season team circumstance

[CD_41]

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

LOL, why did you pick only Kobe for the comparison? Come on, man. Just so you don't get confused: I have Duncan over Kobe in my all-time-rankings. No hater here.

Also we all know that an MVP does not equate being viewed as No 1.
Just look the the Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Nash or Iverson MVPs.

Well the RPOY project on the PC board has him ranked as a #1, and there are also countless articles from thoughtful people over the years that made exactly those arguments.

Listen, I think that Duncan has case that he was Top-3 almost any year he was in the league. That alone is crazy.
In this thread, we are purely talking about peak und current level of play and I think that he could claim No. 2 behind Jokic.

[One_and_Done]

LOL, why did you pick only Kobe for the comparison? Come on, man. Just so you don't get confused: I have Duncan over Kobe in my all-time-rankings. No hater here.

Also we all know that an MVP does not equate being viewed as No 1.
Just look the the Harden, Westbrook, Rose, Nash or Iverson MVPs.

Well the RPOY project on the PC board has him ranked as a #1, and there are also countless articles from thoughtful people over the years that made exactly those arguments.

Listen, I think that Duncan has case that he was Top-3 almost any year he was in the league. That alone is crazy.
In this thread, we are purely talking about peak und current level of play and I think that he could claim No. 2 behind Jokic.

Jokic is in the running for the most overrated man in the universe at this point. Duncan outplayed prime Shaq in multiple series. He'll outplay Jokic just fine.

[ChipotleWest]

If Embiid faced Duncan in a playoff series Duncan would literally destroy him.

[UcanUwill]

Probably second behind Jokic

Tim Duncan was on the all defensive team 15 tines and on the first team 8 times. Jokic has never had the honor.

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app

I am with the guy saying Duncan could probably be second, behind Jokic. He is just not better than Jokic, we could argue if Duncan is better than some other guys, but he is not number 1.
Jokis is clearly best player in the world today, and we have guy who won MVP and DPOY the same year, scored 50 in the final game of the NBA finals, and that guy is in his prime right now and is still not as good as Jokic. That is all you need to know.

[dj20001]

i think i figured out why all these cross era comparisons are about hypothezing older players playing today

because the thread starters are under are born after 2000 and are at least too young to even remember kobe

I definitely remember his abysmal play in the 04 finals, the 00 finals, 2011 against the Mavs, game 7 in 06, and 99 to 07 when the Lakers were 135-137 in games he played without Shaq. I remember him driving away Shaq, and telling the media he didn't care if his HoF coach was retained. I remember Phil's 2 books outlining in detail the myriad of toxic behaviors he engaged in. I remember Kobe driving Dwight Howard off the team and calling him his Tyson Chandler, refusing to play the way Mike D wanted, and then sabotaging his final years with the Lakers by refusing to take less money or adjust to a lesser role. I remember Kobe telling the media "I felt like I had a better chance of making the shot one on five as opposed if my teammates were wide open" after going 11-47.

Crazy what Kobe was able to accomplish with all of that going on

[MrGoat]

They'd only win about 30 games because Timmy would miss a lot of games due to all of the toilets he would need to unclog for his second job

[dj20001]

I think he's exactly where he was during his playing days. Top 5

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

98 and 99 are interesting to list bc Duncan came into the league after a full career in college - he was ready to go. Kobe was what? 20 at the time, on a stacked roster? Why would he be ranked in the MVP convo coming off of the bench?

Pretty sure forwards and centers typically win the award over guards and wings in part bc of counting stats. I know for a fact more post players have won MVP historically as well. Mainly points, shooting percentage and rebounds. Then you have the sharing with Shaq aspect. Had a positive impact on winning, probably a negative impact on Kobe statistically.

Who were the wing type players ranked ahead of Kobe during the seasons you listed? Where did Duncan and Kobe rank in MVP voting post 2007? Why stop before Kobe won the award? Since you’re attributing the end of Duncan’s career to having better teammates and taking a backseat, isn’t that exactly what Kobe was doing to start his career?

The argument for Kobe has always been longevity. He was involved in the MVP convo for a longer stretch than Duncan, which is why you cherry picked years and tried to create an iron clad explanation using “teammates”.

This is bad work man.

[One_and_Done]

i think i figured out why all these cross era comparisons are about hypothezing older players playing today

because the thread starters are under are born after 2000 and are at least too young to even remember kobe

I definitely remember his abysmal play in the 04 finals, the 00 finals, 2011 against the Mavs, game 7 in 06, and 99 to 07 when the Lakers were 135-137 in games he played without Shaq. I remember him driving away Shaq, and telling the media he didn't care if his HoF coach was retained. I remember Phil's 2 books outlining in detail the myriad of toxic behaviors he engaged in. I remember Kobe driving Dwight Howard off the team and calling him his Tyson Chandler, refusing to play the way Mike D wanted, and then sabotaging his final years with the Lakers by refusing to take less money or adjust to a lesser role. I remember Kobe telling the media "I felt like I had a better chance of making the shot one on five as opposed if my teammates were wide open" after going 11-47.

Crazy what Kobe was able to accomplish with all of that going on

Crazy how fortunate he was in the quality of his team mates for most of his career.

[dj20001]

I definitely remember his abysmal play in the 04 finals, the 00 finals, 2011 against the Mavs, game 7 in 06, and 99 to 07 when the Lakers were 135-137 in games he played without Shaq. I remember him driving away Shaq, and telling the media he didn't care if his HoF coach was retained. I remember Phil's 2 books outlining in detail the myriad of toxic behaviors he engaged in. I remember Kobe driving Dwight Howard off the team and calling him his Tyson Chandler, refusing to play the way Mike D wanted, and then sabotaging his final years with the Lakers by refusing to take less money or adjust to a lesser role. I remember Kobe telling the media "I felt like I had a better chance of making the shot one on five as opposed if my teammates were wide open" after going 11-47.

Crazy what Kobe was able to accomplish with all of that going on

Crazy how fortunate he was in the quality of his team mates for most of his career.

So quality you won’t do us the favor of listing the names - I was hoping get in a laugh or two.

Be kinder!

[One_and_Done]

100%.

What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.

Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

98 and 99 are interesting to list bc Duncan came into the league after a full career in college - he was ready to go. Kobe was what? 20 at the time, on a stacked roster? Why would he be ranked in the MVP convo coming off of the bench?

Pretty sure forwards and centers typically win the award over guards and wings in part bc of counting stats. I know for a fact more post players have won MVP historically as well. Mainly points, shooting percentage and rebounds. Then you have the sharing with Shaq aspect. Had a positive impact on winning, probably a negative impact on Kobe statistically.

Who were the wing type players ranked ahead of Kobe during the seasons you listed? Where did Duncan and Kobe rank in MVP voting post 2007? Why stop before Kobe won the award? Since you’re attributing the end of Duncan’s career to having better teammates and taking a backseat, isn’t that exactly what Kobe was doing to start his career?

The argument for Kobe has always been longevity. He was involved in the MVP convo for a longer stretch than Duncan, which is why you cherry picked years and tried to create an iron clad explanation using “teammates”.

This is bad work man.

Which of the 10 errors do you want to be corrected on first? The part about there not being wings as good as Kobe during his career (though why would that matter?), or the part about Tim Duncan having the advantage due to his gaudy stats on slow paced teams?

You complain about Kobe being too young in 98 & 99. That's true in a sense, he wasn't in his prime no more than Duncan was in 08 onwards. On the other hand, Duncan was top 5 in MVP voting as a 21 year old rookie, and best player in the league at 22. Where was Kobe then? 12th and 9th in MVP and not even the best player on his own team. Duncan was also still all-nba 1st team and the best player on a title team at 36 and 37. At the same age Kobe was one of the most negative players in the league and shooting his team out of every game. It also strikes me Lakers fans are very quick to mention post-prime Duncan and injured Manu going down to the stacked Pau-Kobe Lakers, but silent on 99 when a much closer to his prime Kobe and prime Shaq got bushwacked by Duncan.

[One_and_Done]

Crazy what Kobe was able to accomplish with all of that going on

Crazy how fortunate he was in the quality of his team mates for most of his career.

So quality you won’t do us the favor of listing the names - I was hoping get in a laugh or two.

Be kinder!

Names? Of who?

[dj20001]

This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.

98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)

So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.

98 and 99 are interesting to list bc Duncan came into the league after a full career in college - he was ready to go. Kobe was what? 20 at the time, on a stacked roster? Why would he be ranked in the MVP convo coming off of the bench?

Pretty sure forwards and centers typically win the award over guards and wings in part bc of counting stats. I know for a fact more post players have won MVP historically as well. Mainly points, shooting percentage and rebounds. Then you have the sharing with Shaq aspect. Had a positive impact on winning, probably a negative impact on Kobe statistically.

Who were the wing type players ranked ahead of Kobe during the seasons you listed? Where did Duncan and Kobe rank in MVP voting post 2007? Why stop before Kobe won the award? Since you’re attributing the end of Duncan’s career to having better teammates and taking a backseat, isn’t that exactly what Kobe was doing to start his career?

The argument for Kobe has always been longevity. He was involved in the MVP convo for a longer stretch than Duncan, which is why you cherry picked years and tried to create an iron clad explanation using “teammates”.

This is bad work man.

Which of the 10 errors do you want to be corrected on first? The part about there not being wings as good as Kobe during his career (though why would that matter?), or the part about Tim Duncan having the advantage due to his gaudy stats on slow paced teams?

You complain about Kobe being too young in 98 & 99. That's true in a sense, he wasn't in his prime no more than Duncan was in 08 onwards. On the other hand, Duncan was top 5 in MVP voting as a 21 year old rookie, and best player in the league at 22. Where was Kobe then? 12th and 9th in MVP and not even the best player on his own team. Duncan was also still all-nba 1st team and the best player on a title team at 36 and 37. At the same age Kobe was one of the most negative players in the league and shooting his team out of every game. It also strikes me Lakers fans are very quick to mention post-prime Duncan and injured Manu going down to the stacked Pau-Kobe Lakers, but silent on 99 when a much closer to his prime Kobe and prime Shaq got bushwacked by Duncan.

I asked you to list the wings ranked higher than Kobe in MVP voting during those years - you didn’t. We know LBJ was probably there (again an inherent advantage in counting stats).

Kobe wasn’t winning MVP with that version of Shaq on his team, Duncan wouldn’t have either. Robinson afforded Duncan with a good amount of opportunity starting out - you mention none of it.

Kobe is one of four players ever to score 20k points in a decade. Somehow he did this with Shaq as a teammate for almost half the 2000s and has 5 rings to show for it. How many rings does Duncan have from 2000-2010?

Pretty sure Kobe is also the only player ever with 20k points, ten all star appearances, ten all NBA teams and ten all defense selections for any given ten year stretch in league history.

You COULD say Duncan was able to win all defense awards later into his career bc the center position was declining. I won’t go there, but that’s something you definitely would point to if we were on different sides of the line.

You need more ammo dude, I’m just getting started.