The SGA experience

[Capn'O]

drawing fouls is a skill in the nba and has been for decades. shai is talented at drawing fouls, as are a lot of players of his caliber over the years. shai is hyper-aggressive, knows how to get defenders off balance and lives in the paint. he rarely settles for pull-up threes. so he's going to get calls. his free throw rate is in-line with other players like him.

In addition to this, and the thing that is rarely talked about, is that players like Shai are not elite athletes relative to their superstar status. They don't have the elite burst or rise of a Michael Jordan, Dwyane Wade, Anthony Edwards, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, etc. Those kind of guys will go by you and you'll never recover as a defender. Shai is not like this. He isn't going to elite first step into a poster dunk. He is a guy who will use crafty footwork to gain an advantage and put the defender out of position, then use his body and positioning to keep them out of position.

If you put an elite athletic defender on Shai, he can gain an advantage, but without a mechanism to keep the advantage, defenders will recover. A lot of people use the cliche "putting them in jail" and I think that speaks to how guys like Shai, Luka, Harden of the past and now Jalen Brunson as well operate. They use their footwork and talent to gain an advantage over a defender, and then "put them in jail" to keep them out of position. The reason this results in so many fouls is defenders will try to force their way back into legal guarding position and will foul in the process.

It's possible for defenders to not get out of position so frequently. Herb Jones and Trey Murphy did a fantastic job of this in the first series. I imagine Jaden McDaniels would as well, but it takes a talented and disciplined defender to guard a talented and disciplined offensive talent like Shai.

Man you just word for word kept me from writing three paragraphs. Appreciate you.

To add, I think you captured why players like Shai and Brunson don't get their due as the superstars they are. When you watch them, by sheer athletic prominence they shouldn't be as good as they are but their craft and mastery of pace takes them to that next level.

[Mamba Mentality]

Ant has shot 44 free throws to SGAs 46 this postseason. One guy is being compared to Jordan while the other is constantly criticized for being a foul merchant. Amazing…

Ant has played 6 games, while Shai has played 5.

You still gonna complain if he shoots 4 fts next game? Where we drawing this imaginary line that separates normal free throw rate from foul baiting?

[Harry Garris]

I don't see SGA "foul baiting" in the same way Harden did or Trae Young did or... I'll admit it... Damian Lillard has been known to do. He's shifty and in constant motion, bobbing and weaving, moving back and forth. He's not out there barreling into dudes and throwing his body into people.

Also SGA averages a low amount of FTAs per game relative to how often he attacks the rim.

He's a big guard and therefore doesn't get as many BS calls. It's always the small dudes that get these calls that are absolutely ridiculous. The Knicks and Sixers series was awesome and I loved everything about it, but Brunson and Maxey were both getting some calls where they literally caused 100% of the contact and there was nothing the defender could have done, because they're small and slight and NBA referees award that body type with free throws more easily than big players.

[Chuck Everett]

Ant has shot 44 free throws to SGAs 46 this postseason. One guy is being compared to Jordan while the other is constantly criticized for being a foul merchant. Amazing…

Ant has played 6 games, while Shai has played 5.

You still gonna complain if he shoots 4 fts next game? Where we drawing this imaginary line that separates normal free throw rate from baiting?

I didn't complain at all. You threw up a comparison between the two, I just added context to it. And Nuggets fans believe Ant is taking too many free throws as well vs. what their team is getting.

9.2 FTA vs. 7.3 FTA

[cgf]

Gilgeous-Alexander gets the skinny boy privilege in that you bump him and send him off he will get free throws much like Durant(without Durant's rip through BS). Not Harden/Embiid levels but noteworthy enough that a neutral fan can see.

I wish Gilgeous-Alexander and Brunson got the Jamal Murray/Kyrie Irving level of whistle.

I think though the players you're using as an example highlight something. Shai and Brunson and relentless drivers who try to get into the paint on almost every possession. Jamal Murray is a pull up artist who's drives are usually set up by the threat of his pull up. Kyrie is a perimeter shooter with handles that occasionally attacks a matchup.

Shai: 24.6 drives per 36 minutes, 63%ts (17.4 in the playoffs, 54%ts)
Brunson: 19.8 drives per 36, 56.4%ts (21.8 in the playoffs, 53%ts)
Murray: 13.7 drives per 36, 50%ts (17 in the playoffs, 45.8%ts).
Kyrie 12.1 drives per 36, 59.2%ts (9.6 in the playoffs, 54%TS)

You have to drive and be a threat to score to draw a whistle. Jamal is not on the map in terms of scoring efficiency, and Kyrie just doesn't drive enough to even have a chance at a whistle.

Bingo.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Read on Twitter

Translation: They wouldn’t let me hand check like crazy like they did vs the Clippers, so we can’t play D!

[Dirk]

This is literally a hobby, and a fine hobby.

If you want short-form writing then go to twitter or the formulaic comment section of a reddit thread.

Long thoughtful posts are encouraged here, this is what the forum was built on.

Yeah I disagree with the topics Dirk chooses from time to time and definitely don't like a complain about refs thread. But a Dirk thread is always high quality. And if you don't have the ability to read more than about 15 words that's cool, plenty of spots on the internet or even just on this board for that kind of post. I ignore most of the hot take threads because they aren't for me. That's the cool thing, we get to make choices.

I won't claim that this topic is of good quality or anything (it can be easily argued it isn't, because in many ways it's again about "refs", which isn't my first time either). So it's totally fine and normal to have some backlash, including random one liners about "aids" or "hobbies" from random folks who are never going to be accused of adding any value to the board.

I noticed a lot of chatter about the calls the player received (and not only Mavs fans, basically general fans... this is quite easy to see and track online). And there is a context to all of this: we watched Nuggets/Wolves being allowed to play a completely different brand of basketball for two games. And then on the other side of the bracket, this happened.

Perhaps I shouldn't have created the topic on the back of a game with my team (since a normal connection will be made). You can see various of comments about "Luka" in the thread, when this topic isn't about Luka and there are millions of Luka topics where people can discuss him. Just because I happen to have a Mavs logo, does not mean the topic because about "Luka", or "Mavs fans". Certain comments that deflect away to Luka do end up validating some of the underlying ideas of the topic though... it's as if they're saying "You are right, but Luka...".

^Of course I knew all that could/would happen.

Hopefully anyone who actually takes time to read a topic before they reply, will notice that this was more about SGA's play style going forward (and particularly against the Wolves if they meet). I don't imagine that it will fly under the radar if he gets the calls he got last night. Post was longer than it needed to be to also underline that this wasn't a "fan of other team complaining"... there is enough "evidence" in the post to support that.

Kyrie was very level headed here in the comments post game:

Read on Twitter

I appreciate those who stick to the topic, don't throw personal remarks, don't attack a fanbase or associate one single user with a fanbase. There's still normal people who read, process, don't get defensive about their team/guy and simply state opinions based on the subject of the topic. So it's all good.

[Doranku]

Read on Twitter

Translation: They wouldn’t let me hand check like crazy like they did vs the Clippers, so we can’t play D!

lol Kyrie handchecked SGA one time last night in the second half (funnily enough, the very next play, JDub handchecked Kyrie all the way into the lane, leading to Chet's block on him. No call). Kyrie was referring to the first half when SGA was getting phantom foul after phantom foul, completely killing the flow & rhythm of the game.

OKC thoroughly outplayed Dallas after Dallas cut it to 1 in the 3rd, but the first half would've looked a lot different if the refs weren't on their bullsht.

[Godymas]

it always seemed clear to me that a big part of what makes SGA special and unique was that he moved unlike any other player for the most part. You could say maybe a Prime AI or someone moves like him, I'd say it's not quite the same. He has some insane control of his ankles to get that step back move he pulls off in the midrange. I'd say the closest guy that is able to move like SGA is actually Brad Beal, except Brad kind of just goes all over the place while SGA has a real focus with his game.

He does have that Harden-esque ref baiting move in his bag though, but the refs do a good job of calling only when it's legit. His game is much sneakier than prime Harden where Harden was literally making a mockery of the job that refs did, SGA is kind of fishing for it in a "gotcha" type of way.

But a ton of his fouls are legit and a big part of it is because of his insane body and leg control.

[MaliBrah]

the Gafford foul in transition was the only bad call IMO. The Mavs just have to be better

[CobraCommander]

Since we talking SGA we gonna compare his direct opponent- Luka

Luka and SGA both attempt 8.7 FT a game - doing the same crap - which is why they are both avg 30+ppg

If these fouls not legit for Sga then they not legit for Luka or Embiid…

If the fouls are called differently - everyone’s scoring goes down significantly…

I see Giddys face blow up from a slap from gafford and Chet get slapped by kyrie with no foul… if that happened to SGA or Luka there would be a 30 minute review to decide if they are ejecting the players from the game the series or banning them from the NBa… especially if they draw blood

Sga getting super star calls as should

[ejftw]

Now do Luka spending 45 seconds of a time out complaining to the refs, and then, bang, gets questionable calls.

[CobraCommander]

Read on Twitter

Translation: They wouldn’t let me hand check like crazy like they did vs the Clippers, so we can’t play D!

lol Kyrie handchecked SGA one time last night in the second half (funnily enough, the very next play, JDub handchecked Kyrie all the way into the lane, leading to Chet's block on him. No call). Kyrie was referring to the first half when SGA was getting phantom foul after phantom foul, completely killing the flow & rhythm of the game.

OKC thoroughly outplayed Dallas after Dallas cut it to 1 in the 3rd, but the first half would've looked a lot different if the refs weren't on their bullsht.

in the spirit of obi won kyrie kenobi … I’m gonna show Doranku all due respect cause he is a solid poster that has shown up consistently on RealGm with reasonable takes,

But I disagree about the first half.

Kyrie again started slow, which appears to be Kyrie deferring to Luka to take the brunt of the shots and scoring out the gate - and Luka wasted it with a bunch of bad shots that missed.

Luka was 50% from 2 and a negative number from 3 in the first half… and they were still close.

TAKE MORE TWOs is something a good coach would require and a smart player would do- Luka did take 8 threes vs the 11.5 he was avg so maybe he is learning - but he was 1-8!!! And is 22% from 3. That’s your problem - no one on earth can defend Luka or SGA in the mid or going to the rack considering they get calls or make shots- sga takes the shots that go in and so far Luka hasn’t done that

Kyrie did have a lot of TOs in first half too but the Mavs have lost 5 straight game ones in playoff series.

Sounds like Kidd ain’t getting these guys ready to play by having a winning game one game plan…

The other teams coach always throws the first punch- Kidd has learned to counter - I guess that’s something

[DonaldSanders]

The first half was very difficult to watch basketball -- it felt like a pre-all star break whistle much less a playoff whistle. Very confusing to watch as a fan, especially after the Wrestlemania match that was Wolves-Nuggets.

Thing is, I don't think the Thunder need this whistle at all, as we saw in the looser whistle 2nd half. They have Dort and other defenders who benefit from being able to defend tighter, and SGA has plenty of talent to play without a soft whistle.

So as fans the tight whistle just ends up being bad basketball, it's not helping any particular team in this series, it was just a boring 1st half.

[ibraheim718]

NBA refs are bad. No need to keep debating it

An underrated point is that it's a hard game to officiate.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Yes. Technically, they are fouls.
No. Very few players get nearly as many of those fouls called in their favor.

[dygaction]

Not that outrageous a superstar got superstar treatment at home court. Mavs have to play better and be able to adjust the degree of physicality on fly based on what are given by the referees. It has been highly inconsistent even in the same series between the same two teams.

[jus a fan]

All these are fouls based on the rules.

I think people want the rules to change.

Fouls to me are when you hit an offensive player in a way that alters there shot or you actively displace them.

These chest to chest bumps that the offensive player initiates shouldn't be fouls.

It's like if you don't have you feet set you need to actively get out of the offensive players way or you will get a foul called against you that's irritating.

Not a SGA complaint but an NBA complaint

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

[Raps in 4]

SGA leads the league in drives at 23.3 per game. Luka drives 30 percent less at 17.8 drives per game.

SGA attempts 8.7 FTs per game.
Luka attempts 8.7 FTs per game.

SGA has never in any season had more FT attempts than Luka.

/thread

[ItsDanger]

SGA seeks out contact while certain other players flop. Does seem like he gets a friendly whistle though.