Ant: Jokic's the best player in the NBA

[HotRocks34]

For the youngsters --

Game 5 Jokic IMO was like the best version of Bird if you never saw him play in real time.

Not quite the same play style but dominance in scoring, passing and rebounding (although Jokic was modest in that category tonight) with some ballhandling mixed in.

Jokic was totally unstoppable tonight and there was just an ease and inevitability to it all.

That's how it felt watching the best version of Bird, particularly as an opponent (against your team). Dread.

He really reminded me of Bird tonight by completely taking over the game and doing whatever he wanted, and doing it in a variety of ways (scoring, passing, etc).

Far above Bird in terms of being unstoppable and doing whatever he wanted offensively. Even the best versions of Bird could be completely shut down. Look at his series vs Detroit in 88. That was the highest scoring version of him. 17ppg & 35% Fg for the series.

Bird could be neutralized to some degree because he wasn't as great as some other all time greats as a 1 on 1 scorer. You couldn't always just give him the ball and kill guys off the dribble.......he needed to be freed up by screens a lot more than some all time greats for his offense.

Bird in the 1988 playoffs was not Peak Bird. Despite the good regular season.

He hurt his back in summer 1986 and was never the same, and in Nov 1988, I think, he had surgery on both Achilles for bone spurs. He wasn't close to his best a few months before that surgery.

I'd consider Peak Bird 1984-86.

At his best, Bird was unstoppable and like a force of nature. The best player of his era, better than Magic. Kareem has said he's the best player he's ever played against.

I hated Bird in the 1980's but he scared me more than any other opponent.

Bird destroyed people. And that's what Jokic reminded me of last night. Crazy aura and nothing that can be done to prevent what is happening.

[Roger Murdock]

You’d have to be stupid not to think Jokic is the best and Ant obviously isn’t stupid

[tsherkin]

At his best, Bird was unstoppable and like a force of nature. The best player of his era, better than Magic. Kareem has said he's the best player he's ever played against.

Bird was stoppable. Nostalgia leads us some times to think otherwise, but he had his down days in the playoffs all the time. He struggled against physical defenses. Dropped a big stinker against Detroit in 85 and was hot dog-ass in the Game 6 victory, saved by DJ, Parish and Scott Wedman while he lofted brick after brick after brick. Then he was even worse against the Sixers the year after, and dropped a stinker in the Game 5 elimination of that series as well. And then he was rough against the Lakers. Pretty quiet in Game 5 and then shot quite poorly in Game 6 as well.

He had plenty of great performances, and he was a monster in general, of course. Definitely not the guy you typically wanted to face, but he had a lot of ups and downs. Dunno about "better than Magic," but he was certainly incredible. Fun to watch, too. In the playoffs, he sort of went with his jumper. If it wasn't falling, he was in trouble. When it was falling, though, man. He'd just eat you alive.

[PistolPeteJR]

For the youngsters --

Game 5 Jokic IMO was like the best version of Bird if you never saw him play in real time.

Not quite the same play style but dominance in scoring, passing and rebounding (although Jokic was modest in that category tonight) with some ballhandling mixed in.

Jokic was totally unstoppable tonight and there was just an ease and inevitability to it all.

That's how it felt watching the best version of Bird, particularly as an opponent (against your team). Dread.

He really reminded me of Bird tonight by completely taking over the game and doing whatever he wanted, and doing it in a variety of ways (scoring, passing, etc).

Jokic is better than Bird ever was. Bird is a comparible passer, but the control Jokic has over the game is too much

Peak Bird was a really great defender. Jokic has and never will have that in his arsenal. He’s not as bad as some make him out to be but never came close to hitting peak Bird-level defense. That said, I’d pump the brakes on “better than Bird ever was”. He can definitely pass him over time though.

[tsherkin]

Peak Bird was a really great defender. Jokic has and never will have that in his arsenal. He’s not as bad as some make him out to be but never came close to hitting peak Bird-level defense. That said, I’d pump the brakes on “better than Bird ever was”. He can definitely pass him over time though.

Peak Bird was a fairly similar defender. Anticipation, position, timing. Bullied badly by athleticism. Not able to guard in space the way more athletic guys can. He took a lot of heat for his defense and McHale did a lot of covering for him with his length and foot speed. Bird made his contributions, but so does Jokic. "Really great" is probably too much praise.

[Guy]

Pivotal playoff game he drops 40 points, 13 ast 0 turnovers against the defensive mvp and best defensive team in the nba.

Jokic = defensive slayer of the year

[HotRocks34]

At his best, Bird was unstoppable and like a force of nature. The best player of his era, better than Magic. Kareem has said he's the best player he's ever played against.

Bird was stoppable. Nostalgia leads us some times to think otherwise, but he had his down days in the playoffs all the time. He struggled against physical defenses. Dropped a big stinker against Detroit in 85 and was hot dog-ass in the Game 6 victory, saved by DJ, Parish and Scott Wedman while he lofted brick after brick after brick. Then he was even worse against the Sixers the year after, and dropped a stinker in the Game 5 elimination of that series as well. And then he was rough against the Lakers. Pretty quiet in Game 5 and then shot quite poorly in Game 6 as well.

He had plenty of great performances, and he was a monster in general, of course. Definitely not the guy you typically wanted to face, but he had a lot of ups and downs. Dunno about "better than Magic," but he was certainly incredible. Fun to watch, too. In the playoffs, he sort of went with his jumper. If it wasn't falling, he was in trouble. When it was falling, though, man. He'd just eat you alive.

Bird was definitely better than Magic. No doubt about that. That's one reason Jordan became so popular. People craved for someone to take down Bird and MJ definitely did that, whereas Magic did not.

Bird was stoppable but all players were stoppable. LeBron 2011 Finals and Jordan 1996 Finals. Saying a player is stoppable really isn't saying anything. Every player is stoppable and has bad games.

Physical defenses, as you know, were much different then than now.

[HotRocks34]

For the youngsters --

Game 5 Jokic IMO was like the best version of Bird if you never saw him play in real time.

Not quite the same play style but dominance in scoring, passing and rebounding (although Jokic was modest in that category tonight) with some ballhandling mixed in.

Jokic was totally unstoppable tonight and there was just an ease and inevitability to it all.

That's how it felt watching the best version of Bird, particularly as an opponent (against your team). Dread.

He really reminded me of Bird tonight by completely taking over the game and doing whatever he wanted, and doing it in a variety of ways (scoring, passing, etc).

Jokic is better than Bird ever was. Bird is a comparible passer, but the control Jokic has over the game is too much

Peak Bird was a really great defender. Jokic has and never will have that in his arsenal. He’s not as bad as some make him out to be but never came close to hitting peak Bird-level defense. That said, I’d pump the brakes on “better than Bird ever was”. He can definitely pass him over time though.

Bird was an excellent team defender, no doubt.

[tsherkin]

Bird was definitely better than Magic. No doubt about that.

Definite doubt. Particularly in 85, in the middle of Bird's peak.

That's one reason Jordan became so popular. People craved for someone to take down Bird and MJ definitely did that, whereas Magic did not.

Well, that's not right, lol. He specifically went 2-1 against Bird in the Finals.

Bird was stoppable but all players were stoppable. LeBron 2011 Finals and Jordan 1996 Finals. Saying a player is stoppable really isn't saying anything. Every player is stoppable and has bad games.

It's relevant when you try to call him "unstoppable," which he was not.

Physical defenses, as you know, were much different then than now.

Yeah, they were crappier and less well-orchestrated. Defense is not the sell for the 80s at all. Bird also lacked the athleticism to score well when his J wasn't on. Fortunately, he was one of the greatest shooters in league history and had a post game, but like, he has a lot of postseason stinkers where he relied on his teammates much more than other scorers might have done. Of course, he was also a good offensive rebounder and playmaker, so he was able to keep contributing, but as a volume scoring dude, he had his issues. No need to attempt apotheosis for him.

[HotRocks34]

Pivotal playoff game he drops 40 points, 13 ast 0 turnovers against the defensive mvp and best defensive team in the nba.

Jokic = defensive slayer of the year

He definitely was last night.

[HotRocks34]

Gobert respects Jokic. I've always appreciated that about him.

After Game 5:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2024/5/15/24157234/nikola-jokic-denver-nuggets-rudy-gobert-third-quarter

“He was in the zone,” Gobert said after the game

Further in the article:

In Game 5, we arrived at the familiar place where, for opponents, all hope of stopping him dies. Nothing you do matters. Gobert, Reid, Anderson, and Towns could have been Anthony Davis, Rui Hachimura, and LeBron James or Bam Adebayo, Kevin Love, and Haywood Highsmith. The traditional rim protector can either use his size to guard him or hang back to protect the rim while the burly forward takes the hardest job on earth. Jokic, at some point, will smash all your precious designs.

One of the guys who covers the Nuggets for DNVR said after Game 3 that Jokic had solved the Minny defense.

Maybe that's true. It's looked like it for 2 games.

We'll see what adjustments Minny makes. Murray and Porter were not good early last night, and Gordon got in foul trouble fast. If Minny could have slowed down Jokic in the first couple of quarters, the game may have gone differently.

[PistolPeteJR]

Peak Bird was a really great defender. Jokic has and never will have that in his arsenal. He’s not as bad as some make him out to be but never came close to hitting peak Bird-level defense. That said, I’d pump the brakes on “better than Bird ever was”. He can definitely pass him over time though.

Peak Bird was a fairly similar defender. Anticipation, position, timing. Bullied badly by athleticism. Not able to guard in space the way more athletic guys can. He took a lot of heat for his defense and McHale did a lot of covering for him with his length and foot speed. Bird made his contributions, but so does Jokic. "Really great" is probably too much praise.

At each of their peaks, I'm taking Bird on the defensive end of Jokic, personally. He really started to falter after '85 I think on that end.

[aj174]

Ant has world-class social intelligence. Only faux pas I've seen him make was when he said queer on Instagram.

Ohh run for the hills he said queer, cancel this man!

...

[tsherkin]

At each of their peaks, I'm taking Bird on the defensive end of Jokic, personally. He really started to falter after '85 I think on that end.

I don't know that I agree with that, but it is certainly a debatable thing about which of the two was better on D at peak, I'll at least cede that. My vested interest is just to note that indeed it is a debate, not a certainty.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

For the youngsters --

Game 5 Jokic IMO was like the best version of Bird if you never saw him play in real time.

Not quite the same play style but dominance in scoring, passing and rebounding (although Jokic was modest in that category tonight) with some ballhandling mixed in.

Jokic was totally unstoppable tonight and there was just an ease and inevitability to it all.

That's how it felt watching the best version of Bird, particularly as an opponent (against your team). Dread.

He really reminded me of Bird tonight by completely taking over the game and doing whatever he wanted, and doing it in a variety of ways (scoring, passing, etc).

Far above Bird in terms of being unstoppable and doing whatever he wanted offensively. Even the best versions of Bird could be completely shut down. Look at his series vs Detroit in 88. That was the highest scoring version of him. 17ppg & 35% Fg for the series.

Bird could be neutralized to some degree because he wasn't as great as some other all time greats as a 1 on 1 scorer. You couldn't always just give him the ball and kill guys off the dribble.......he needed to be freed up by screens a lot more than some all time greats for his offense.

Bird in the 1988 playoffs was not Peak Bird. Despite the good regular season.

He hurt his back in summer 1986 and was never the same, and in Nov 1988, I think, he had surgery on both Achilles for bone spurs. He wasn't close to his best a few months before that surgery.

I'd consider Peak Bird 1984-86.

At his best, Bird was unstoppable and like a force of nature. The best player of his era, better than Magic. Kareem has said he's the best player he's ever played against.

I hated Bird in the 1980's but he scared me more than any other opponent.

Bird destroyed people. And that's what Jokic reminded me of last night. Crazy aura and nothing that can be done to prevent what is happening.

The series prior to Detroit in 88 he had a great individual performance vs Atlanta in that epic 7 game series. I guess one can agree to disagree.

As great as Larry Bird was offensively.....scoring wise in terms of being unstoppable I don't see him in retrospect as a guy you could just throw him the ball anywhere in a halfcourt setting in a 1 on 1 isolation and tell everyone else "get out my way" to the degree of Jokic and some other all time greats.

[HotRocks34]

Jokic has played 10 games so far this postseason. Let's look at his playoff stats and rankings in the playoff field.

28.8 PPG (8th)
......Brunson 33.9 PPG leads
13.3 RPG (3rd)
......Davis 15.6 RPG leads
9.5 APG (1st)
.
56/30/90
.645 TS (10th)
......Gobert .693 TS leads
.
31.7 PER (1st)
.304 WS48 (1st)
13.5 BPM (1st)
.
Points Created Per Game
......[PPG + (APG x 2.5)]
......28.8 + (9.5 x 2.5)
......28.8 + 23.7
......52.5 PCPG (2nd)
...........Brunson 52.6 PCPG leads
.
.
Last year's playoff averages:
.....30.0/13.5/9.5
.....led field in PER, WS48, BPM
.
.
This past regular season
......led field in PER, WS48, BPM


This is who Jokic is right now. He's not only the best player in the league, he's the most dominant (except for Peak Luka and maybe Peak Healthy Embiid).

Think of how much Brunson has done this playoffs and then realize Jokic has basically the same PCPG but with a lower Usage Rate and more rebounds. That's some perspective on how great and prolific Jokic currently is in these playoffs.

[BHF]

Lets admit it guys, we haven't seen anything like jokic before, and we don't fully understand what we're seeing because we haven't seen it before. It's just a different kind of basketball.

I have seen thousands of Jokic type of players over the years, there is nothing different about the way he plays basketball lol we just have not seen a player like that dominate in the NBA.

[MemphisX]

Lets admit it guys, we haven't seen anything like jokic before, and we don't fully understand what we're seeing because we haven't seen it before. It's just a different kind of basketball.

I have seen thousands of Jokic type of players over the years, there is nothing different about the way he plays basketball lol we just have not seen a player like that dominate in the NBA.

Jokic "types" but do not have the full arsenal.

[Bornstellar]

Jokic is basically Tim Duncan with the offensive sliders maxed out and the defensive ones dialed back

[CobraCommander]

https://youtu.be/Glc7sMZF_gs?si=UkGCdSFTto9wIH6E