Post Mortem 2023/24 - Cleveland Cavaliers (Eliminated in East Semis)

[JonFromVA]

Mobleys offensive game is developing and together they make Cleveland one of the best defensive teams in the league. I don’t buy the terrible fit narrative and until I see something substantial to actually prove it, there’s no reason to get rid of Allen.

Hell, if it’s that big of a deal, start one and have the other come off the bench. Allen as your sixth man would be utter insanity.

You're not wrong, but it looks like the players, their agents, and perhaps even a coaching change are going to push the Cavs away from their unconventional 2 big + 2 small lineup regardless of what may or may not make sense.

The Pelicans are a team to watch ... 49-wins, swept out of the first round, their PBO's are good friends, and they have complimentary pieces that could potentially help each other out.

So far the only change I for sure see coming is Cleveland getting rid of the two small guards. Otherwise, I fully expect Mobley/Allen to both stay on the team unless they manage to get a ridiculously good deal for Allen. Mitchell or Garland is understandable, but Allen's contract makes him tricky to trade as having someone as good as him on that kind of deal is bonkers and you're going to want a lot in order to even consider giving him up. At that point the question becomes what's out there that's worth pursuing in order to give him up?

The Cavs want players who want to be there, so unless they can un-ruffle a whole lot of feathers, things are going to shake out. Heck, something I've been saying for months is they may struggle to replace Bickerstaff with a quality coach until/unless they do something about their unconventional lineup. JBB embraced it, a desperate assistant might, but why would a quality head coaching candidate want to commit himself to figuring that out?

Koby Altman isn't shy about throwing together complicated trades, but there are some very simple things we can do with the Pelicans involving Garland and/or Allen who just so happen to have a bit of a glut of wings they need to resolve and have already said they don't plan to bring Valanciunas back.

Speaking of, depending how things go for JV finding a new team, he might be a guy we'd like to bring in to protect Mobley against teams with big C's. We may also wish to bring over our draft & stash Diop next season.

[Iwasawitness]

You're not wrong, but it looks like the players, their agents, and perhaps even a coaching change are going to push the Cavs away from their unconventional 2 big + 2 small lineup regardless of what may or may not make sense.

The Pelicans are a team to watch ... 49-wins, swept out of the first round, their PBO's are good friends, and they have complimentary pieces that could potentially help each other out.

So far the only change I for sure see coming is Cleveland getting rid of the two small guards. Otherwise, I fully expect Mobley/Allen to both stay on the team unless they manage to get a ridiculously good deal for Allen. Mitchell or Garland is understandable, but Allen's contract makes him tricky to trade as having someone as good as him on that kind of deal is bonkers and you're going to want a lot in order to even consider giving him up. At that point the question becomes what's out there that's worth pursuing in order to give him up?

The Cavs want players who want to be there, so unless they can un-ruffle a whole lot of feathers, things are going to shake out. Heck, something I've been saying for months is they may struggle to replace Bickerstaff with a quality coach until/unless they do something about their unconventional lineup. JBB embraced it, a desperate assistant might, but why would a quality head coaching candidate want to commit himself to figuring that out?

Koby Altman isn't shy about throwing together complicated trades, but there are some very simple things we can do with the Pelicans involving Garland and/or Allen who just so happen to have a bit of a glut of wings they need to resolve and have already said they don't plan to bring Valanciunas back.

Speaking of, depending how things go for JV finding a new team, he might be a guy we'd like to bring in to protect Mobley against teams with big C's. We may also wish to bring over our draft & stash Diop next season.

Val can be a good pickup if he’s someone we can bring in without having to give much up (I don’t think we can bring him without doing a sign and trade). Having a good rotation of bigs to me is what we need to do in order to take this team to the next level. As I said before, if that means Allen comes off the bench, I’m all for it, he’d be a ridiculously good sixth man (as would Val).

You mentioned people who would want to be here. Allen wants to be here. He loves Cleveland. To me, unless he asks out, I don’t see any reason as to why you’d get rid of him, unless a really great offer can be made for him like I’ve said before. I don’t think Garland/Mitchell can continue to work but I absolutely do think Mobley/Allen can.

[JonFromVA]

So far the only change I for sure see coming is Cleveland getting rid of the two small guards. Otherwise, I fully expect Mobley/Allen to both stay on the team unless they manage to get a ridiculously good deal for Allen. Mitchell or Garland is understandable, but Allen's contract makes him tricky to trade as having someone as good as him on that kind of deal is bonkers and you're going to want a lot in order to even consider giving him up. At that point the question becomes what's out there that's worth pursuing in order to give him up?

The Cavs want players who want to be there, so unless they can un-ruffle a whole lot of feathers, things are going to shake out. Heck, something I've been saying for months is they may struggle to replace Bickerstaff with a quality coach until/unless they do something about their unconventional lineup. JBB embraced it, a desperate assistant might, but why would a quality head coaching candidate want to commit himself to figuring that out?

Koby Altman isn't shy about throwing together complicated trades, but there are some very simple things we can do with the Pelicans involving Garland and/or Allen who just so happen to have a bit of a glut of wings they need to resolve and have already said they don't plan to bring Valanciunas back.

Speaking of, depending how things go for JV finding a new team, he might be a guy we'd like to bring in to protect Mobley against teams with big C's. We may also wish to bring over our draft & stash Diop next season.

Val can be a good pickup if he’s someone we can bring in without having to give much up (I don’t think we can bring him without doing a sign and trade). Having a good rotation of bigs to me is what we need to do in order to take this team to the next level. As I said before, if that means Allen comes off the bench, I’m all for it, he’d be a ridiculously good sixth man (as would Val).

You mentioned people who would want to be here. Allen wants to be here. He loves Cleveland. To me, unless he asks out, I don’t see any reason as to why you’d get rid of him, unless a really great offer can be made for him like I’ve said before. I don’t think Garland/Mitchell can continue to work but I absolutely do think Mobley/Allen can.

If the goal is to reshape the Cavs lineup in a more modern form, then $20M/year for Allen is spending way too much for someone to play when Mobley is physically overmatched and the minutes when Mobley is off the floor and we can't get away with going 5 out.

There's also no reason to expect Allen entering his prime playing and earning years would be happy with a reduced role either.

The biggest problem for the Cavs is it looks like the players themselves have lost faith in the 2 big + 2 small lineup and perhaps even in each other and their coach. So, a player like Allen may be happy to remain, but don't assume it's not with some conditions.

[Vampirate]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

Ultimately your team lacks post season talent.

Jarrett Allen is a very good player, fringe type All Star. You need someone who's not a fringe type All Star to get further in the playoffs.

The fact is your team gave up a lot of assets to get Mitchell in the first place. even if Mitchell resigns your teams ceiling remains.

The other factor here is simply age. Allen and Mitchell are at/near their peak, there's not a lot of room for growth between the 2. Mobley isn't.

So with limited assets and a team that's reached it's ceiling most likely how are you going to improve?

[Iwasawitness]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

Ultimately your team lacks post season talent.

Jarrett Allen is a very good player, fringe type All Star. You need someone who's not a fringe type All Star to get further in the playoffs.

The fact is your team gave up a lot of assets to get Mitchell in the first place. even if Mitchell resigns your teams ceiling remains.

The other factor here is simply age. Allen and Mitchell are at/near their peak, there's not a lot of room for growth between the 2. Mobley isn't.

So with limited assets and a team that's reached it's ceiling most likely how are you going to improve?

Well first off, Jarrett Allen was arguably our best player before he went out with injury. Not to mention, he didn’t play at all in the series that we lost. So he’s a poor example.

How are we going to improve? This is a silly question. Garland is 23 and Mobley is 22. Hell, Allen is only 25. We will continue to improve through internal development and making key additions to the roster through FA. Of course, what else happens will ultimately depend on whether or not Mitchell stays, and if he doesn’t, what assets we get for him. And if we are to believe Klutch, then if Mitchell DOES stay, then it all comes down to what Cleveland can get for Garland (which will be tricky because for some reason people are acting like this is Garland’s first year in the league and are incapable of thinking back farther than that).

Either way, there’s definitely a path for improvement.

[JujitsuFlip]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

Ultimately your team lacks post season talent.

Jarrett Allen is a very good player, fringe type All Star. You need someone who's not a fringe type All Star to get further in the playoffs.

The fact is your team gave up a lot of assets to get Mitchell in the first place. even if Mitchell resigns your teams ceiling remains.

The other factor here is simply age. Allen and Mitchell are at/near their peak, there's not a lot of room for growth between the 2. Mobley isn't.

So with limited assets and a team that's reached it's ceiling most likely how are you going to improve?

Well first off, Jarrett Allen was arguably our best player before he went out with injury. Not to mention, he didn’t play at all in the series that we lost. So he’s a poor example.

How are we going to improve? This is a silly question. Garland is 23 and Mobley is 22. Hell, Allen is only 25. We will continue to improve through internal development and making key additions to the roster through FA. Of course, what else happens will ultimately depend on whether or not Mitchell stays, and if he doesn’t, what assets we get for him. And if we are to believe Klutch, then if Mitchell DOES stay, then it all comes down to what Cleveland can get for Garland (which will be tricky because for some reason people are acting like this is Garland’s first year in the league and are incapable of thinking back farther than that).

Either way, there’s definitely a path for improvement.

Garland is 24, Allen is 26, and Mobley will be 23 next month.

If Windy is to be believed, he said the Cavs are trying to move Allen within the next month.

[jbk1234]

Read on Twitter

[Iwasawitness]

Read on Twitter

Interesting…

[jbk1234]

The Cavs want players who want to be there, so unless they can un-ruffle a whole lot of feathers, things are going to shake out. Heck, something I've been saying for months is they may struggle to replace Bickerstaff with a quality coach until/unless they do something about their unconventional lineup. JBB embraced it, a desperate assistant might, but why would a quality head coaching candidate want to commit himself to figuring that out?

Koby Altman isn't shy about throwing together complicated trades, but there are some very simple things we can do with the Pelicans involving Garland and/or Allen who just so happen to have a bit of a glut of wings they need to resolve and have already said they don't plan to bring Valanciunas back.

Speaking of, depending how things go for JV finding a new team, he might be a guy we'd like to bring in to protect Mobley against teams with big C's. We may also wish to bring over our draft & stash Diop next season.

Val can be a good pickup if he’s someone we can bring in without having to give much up (I don’t think we can bring him without doing a sign and trade). Having a good rotation of bigs to me is what we need to do in order to take this team to the next level. As I said before, if that means Allen comes off the bench, I’m all for it, he’d be a ridiculously good sixth man (as would Val).

You mentioned people who would want to be here. Allen wants to be here. He loves Cleveland. To me, unless he asks out, I don’t see any reason as to why you’d get rid of him, unless a really great offer can be made for him like I’ve said before. I don’t think Garland/Mitchell can continue to work but I absolutely do think Mobley/Allen can.

If the goal is to reshape the Cavs lineup in a more modern form, then $20M/year for Allen is spending way too much for someone to play when Mobley is physically overmatched and the minutes when Mobley is off the floor and we can't get away with going 5 out.

There's also no reason to expect Allen entering his prime playing and earning years would be happy with a reduced role either.

The biggest problem for the Cavs is it looks like the players themselves have lost faith in the 2 big + 2 small lineup and perhaps even in each other and their coach. So, a player like Allen may be happy to remain, but don't assume it's not with some conditions.

Is there any evidence that Allen and Mobley don't want to play together in the same unit anymore?

The Mitchell/Garland conflict has boiled out into the open, but I'm not aware as so much as a whisper that there's static between Allen and Mobley

[JonFromVA]

Val can be a good pickup if he’s someone we can bring in without having to give much up (I don’t think we can bring him without doing a sign and trade). Having a good rotation of bigs to me is what we need to do in order to take this team to the next level. As I said before, if that means Allen comes off the bench, I’m all for it, he’d be a ridiculously good sixth man (as would Val).

You mentioned people who would want to be here. Allen wants to be here. He loves Cleveland. To me, unless he asks out, I don’t see any reason as to why you’d get rid of him, unless a really great offer can be made for him like I’ve said before. I don’t think Garland/Mitchell can continue to work but I absolutely do think Mobley/Allen can.

If the goal is to reshape the Cavs lineup in a more modern form, then $20M/year for Allen is spending way too much for someone to play when Mobley is physically overmatched and the minutes when Mobley is off the floor and we can't get away with going 5 out.

There's also no reason to expect Allen entering his prime playing and earning years would be happy with a reduced role either.

The biggest problem for the Cavs is it looks like the players themselves have lost faith in the 2 big + 2 small lineup and perhaps even in each other and their coach. So, a player like Allen may be happy to remain, but don't assume it's not with some conditions.

Is there any evidence that Allen and Mobley don't want to play together in the same unit anymore?

The Mitchell/Garland conflict has boiled out into the open, but I'm not aware as so much as a whisper that there's static between Allen and Mobley

Oh, there's no conflict per se between them as far as I know, but they idea that they take away from each other is very present in everyone's thoughts, Allen is unhappy about taking heat over not taking a pain killer, and he will be playing for an extension next season.

When you consider he's already on a "bargain contract" and so many people expect Evan is the future for the Cavs at C, and that Evan is likely the player out of the two the Cavs will throw a max contracts at ... it leaves Jarrett in a less than desirable position in terms of negotiations over that extension.

He needs to be on a team where he can a) prove he deserves more, b) he's valued enough to be paid more, and c) the team has the cap space and willingness to pay him more.

Personally, I've always said the redundancy between Garland/Mitchell and Allen/Mobley was nice to have, but the players themselves need to be satisfied with the situation and suddenly it looks like they aren't.

I know you're the last Cavs fan who'd want to promise a player like Jarrett in advance that we're going to overpay him to make him happy - you'd want him to re-sign him at market price. Well, anyone with even a lousy crystal ball can see he's on a path where he could be end up another 7fter left out in the cold taking an MLE level deal (or worse) if he leaves his future to the market.

IMO, things on the team could be smoothed over, but when it comes to making future promises, would you trust Koby Altman to be around to deliver on them?

[jbk1234]

If the goal is to reshape the Cavs lineup in a more modern form, then $20M/year for Allen is spending way too much for someone to play when Mobley is physically overmatched and the minutes when Mobley is off the floor and we can't get away with going 5 out.

There's also no reason to expect Allen entering his prime playing and earning years would be happy with a reduced role either.

The biggest problem for the Cavs is it looks like the players themselves have lost faith in the 2 big + 2 small lineup and perhaps even in each other and their coach. So, a player like Allen may be happy to remain, but don't assume it's not with some conditions.

Is there any evidence that Allen and Mobley don't want to play together in the same unit anymore?

The Mitchell/Garland conflict has boiled out into the open, but I'm not aware as so much as a whisper that there's static between Allen and Mobley

Oh, there's no conflict per se between them as far as I know, but they idea that they take away from each other is very present in everyone's thoughts, Allen is unhappy about taking heat over not taking a pain killer, and he will be playing for an extension next season.

When you consider he's already on a "bargain contract" and so many people expect Evan is the future for the Cavs at C, and that Evan is likely the player out of the two the Cavs will throw a max contracts at ... it leaves Jarrett in a less than desirable position in terms of negotiations over that extension.

He needs to be on a team where he can a) prove he deserves more, b) he's valued enough to be paid more, and c) the team has the cap space and willingness to pay him more.

Personally, I've always said the redundancy between Garland/Mitchell and Allen/Mobley was nice to have, but the players themselves need to be satisfied with the situation and suddenly it looks like they aren't.

I know you're the last Cavs fan who'd want to promise a player like Jarrett in advance that we're going to overpay him to make him happy - you'd want him to re-sign him at market price. Well, anyone with even a lousy crystal ball can see he's on a path where he could be end up another 7fter left out in the cold taking an MLE level deal (or worse) if he leaves his future to the market.

IMO, things on the team could be smoothed over, but when it comes to making future promises, would you trust Koby Altman to be around to deliver on them?

Unless there's a deal that's too good to pass on, I don't really see the point in trading Allen until the Mitchell situation has been resolved. After Mitchell has extended, let the other dominoes fall.

Honestly, if firing JBB helps secure Mitchell's extension, it's not clear to me why he's still employed. Some of these decisions are tough, others are not.

[yoyoboy]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

Ultimately your team lacks post season talent.

Jarrett Allen is a very good player, fringe type All Star. You need someone who's not a fringe type All Star to get further in the playoffs.

The fact is your team gave up a lot of assets to get Mitchell in the first place. even if Mitchell resigns your teams ceiling remains.

The other factor here is simply age. Allen and Mitchell are at/near their peak, there's not a lot of room for growth between the 2. Mobley isn't.

So with limited assets and a team that's reached it's ceiling most likely how are you going to improve?

“Reached its ceiling” despite the fact that this team has gone from no playoffs -> play-in-games -> first round -> second round in the past four seasons. That’s quite the opposite of what you’re implying. And that’s despite the fact that this team had Allen out the entire second round and 2 games of the first round, Mitchell missing 2 games and hampered by his injury in the games he did play, Wade missing 2 games, and Porter Jr missing the entire postseason. If even just Mitchell didn’t go down, this team probably takes 2 games off Boston, who was the best team in the league this year.

And there are clear avenues to improving the team if necessary. Replacing JBB who should have been canned a long time ago. Trading one or two of the core four to make a team that fits in a more traditional manner. Getting internal improvements from Garland and especially Mobley, the latter of whom has only scratched his potential and contrary to popular belief has statistically improved steadily each year. People on this board are so shortsighted in their perspective, thinking that if you’re anywhere in between a championship-level team and an absolutely horrible team, then you’re just treadmilling.

[Doctor MJ]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

I think the strategy should be to treat Mobley like Duncan with more action going through him and Mobley playing the 5 against 75% of the centers in the league and the 4 against the other 25% of actually good centers. You'd obviously want a big body to absorb fouls and rebound against that 25% and those can be found cheap. As for rebounding as a whole, they just need to find better players with size and rebounding skills. Breaking up or getting rid of the tiny backcourt would help. Finding NBA caliber 2-4 (which they've been incapable of for some reason) would help as well.

Team just needs a complete and total overhaul. I'm half convinced Mobley will demand a trade so the Cavs are really screwed if they don't correct this situation which is why I'd build around Mobley and run the offense through him because who else will do that? It might be enough to keep him content in CLE and be a lifer with his jersey getting retired someday.

Well I would suggest that San Antonio was wrong to play so much through Duncan, and that's why their offense improved when Duncan left his prime. It's really not easy to find bigs who can justify being the focal point on offense in the age of pace & space, and I wouldn't be betting on Mobley to become one of them.

[Blame Rasho]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the Mobley/Allen duo, question for you…

If it’s Allen you cut ties with, who is going to be your main rebounder on a team that is already devoid of it? Monkey ain’t ready to be that yet. Who can you realistically get for Allen that would actually justify moving Mobley there in the first place?

If you think Mobley… no. You keep Mobley no matter what. He’s got too much potential.

I think the strategy should be to treat Mobley like Duncan with more action going through him and Mobley playing the 5 against 75% of the centers in the league and the 4 against the other 25% of actually good centers. You'd obviously want a big body to absorb fouls and rebound against that 25% and those can be found cheap. As for rebounding as a whole, they just need to find better players with size and rebounding skills. Breaking up or getting rid of the tiny backcourt would help. Finding NBA caliber 2-4 (which they've been incapable of for some reason) would help as well.

Team just needs a complete and total overhaul. I'm half convinced Mobley will demand a trade so the Cavs are really screwed if they don't correct this situation which is why I'd build around Mobley and run the offense through him because who else will do that? It might be enough to keep him content in CLE and be a lifer with his jersey getting retired someday.

Well I would suggest that San Antonio was wrong to play so much through Duncan, and that's why their offense improved when Duncan left his prime. It's really not easy to find bigs who can justify being the focal point on offense in the age of pace & space, and I wouldn't be betting on Mobley to become one of them.

They won 4 titles with Duncan being the guy. They did change it up post 2010, and could have won three titles in 12,13 and well the one they did in 14. The game rapidly changed after the Heat formed and having a traditional big didn’t become essential due to the three ball becoming a mainstay.

The circle back to the Cavs, I don’t see why they need to change up a lot. People underrate continuity. I know the overall goal is to win a title, but the amount of talent needed is harder to grab nowadays esp with huge contracts given out. It is best to develop what you have and then make adjustments.

I am also of the opinion that people need to chill out with Mobley, he isn’t some transcendent player. If you think that maybe you should blow it up if other teams think of him that way and you get an unholy return via trade.

[Doctor MJ]

I think the strategy should be to treat Mobley like Duncan with more action going through him and Mobley playing the 5 against 75% of the centers in the league and the 4 against the other 25% of actually good centers. You'd obviously want a big body to absorb fouls and rebound against that 25% and those can be found cheap. As for rebounding as a whole, they just need to find better players with size and rebounding skills. Breaking up or getting rid of the tiny backcourt would help. Finding NBA caliber 2-4 (which they've been incapable of for some reason) would help as well.

Team just needs a complete and total overhaul. I'm half convinced Mobley will demand a trade so the Cavs are really screwed if they don't correct this situation which is why I'd build around Mobley and run the offense through him because who else will do that? It might be enough to keep him content in CLE and be a lifer with his jersey getting retired someday.

Well I would suggest that San Antonio was wrong to play so much through Duncan, and that's why their offense improved when Duncan left his prime. It's really not easy to find bigs who can justify being the focal point on offense in the age of pace & space, and I wouldn't be betting on Mobley to become one of them.

They won 4 titles with Duncan being the guy. They did change it up post 2010, and could have won three titles in 12,13 and well the one they did in 14. The game rapidly changed after the Heat formed and having a traditional big didn’t become essential due to the three ball becoming a mainstay.

They won primarily because of elite defense, which Duncan was the backbone of across the duration.

I think it's important not to look at champions and think that everything they were doing must have been perfect for their team when we know full well that strategy is improving rapidly and champs of the past were using strategies that would be behind the curve today.

[Doctor MJ]

The circle back to the Cavs, I don’t see why they need to change up a lot. People underrate continuity. I know the overall goal is to win a title, but the amount of talent needed is harder to grab nowadays esp with huge contracts given out. It is best to develop what you have and then make adjustments.

I am also of the opinion that people need to chill out with Mobley, he isn’t some transcendent player. If you think that maybe you should blow it up if other teams think of him that way and you get an unholy return via trade.

Some reasonable cautiousness here, but the thing is that the Cavs are far enough along in their timeline that they're going to be forced to make moves soon.

In the backcourt, I literally think the players are bringing it to ahead because they (Mitchell & Garland) see the fit issues.

In the frontcourt, Mobley's eligible for the rookie max this summer, and then Allen will only have 2 years left on his way-below-all-star level contract. Realistically you don't want to pay both of those guys market rates unless you think they work well together.

This then to say that while I could absolutely see the Cavs going into next year with both the bigs and one of the smalls, I expect they'll be evaluating hard whether the big man duo seems to be working, and that it will be likely that one of them will be traded within the next year.

[Vampirate]

To the people who keep proclaiming Cleveland needs to break up the “Reached its ceiling” despite the fact that this team has gone from no playoffs -> play-in-games -> first round -> second round in the past four seasons. That’s quite the opposite of what you’re implying. And that’s despite the fact that this team had Allen out the entire second round and 2 games of the first round, Mitchell missing 2 games and hampered by his injury in the games he did play, Wade missing 2 games, and Porter Jr missing the entire postseason. If even just Mitchell didn’t go down, this team probably takes 2 games off Boston, who was the best team in the league this year.

Reached it's ceiling meaning the odds are always going to be against you in getting to the finals.

You don't have a coach of Spoelstra to go higher (reach the finals) with lesser talent.

You don't have anyone better than Mitchell to go further either (both Tatum and Giannis are a tier above Mitchell (Mitchell is definitely an All Star scorer, but that's where most of his value begins and ends, not saying he can't play make of course))

Mitchell is definitely at his peak, Allen has not improved his numbers in 3 years, he's been a 16/10 player which it seems he tops out at.

Garland should have a bounce back year next year (regular season wise) but has clear limitations in the playoffs.

Mobley has gotten better each year, but in order for the Cavs to get to another level he 'needs' to develop as a guy who creates his own scoring.


The issue isn't that the Cavs can't get better, it's that it won't ever really be enough to overtake Boston or the Bucks, and should you run into injuries with your opponent, you'd have no real shot getting to or winning the NBA finals.

You don't need to just 'get better', you need to get exponentially better.

And there are clear avenues to improving the team if necessary. Replacing JBB who should have been canned a long time ago. Trading one or two of the core four to make a team that fits in a more traditional manner. Getting internal improvements from Garland and especially Mobley, the latter of whom has only scratched his potential and contrary to popular belief has statistically improved steadily each year. People on this board are so shortsighted in their perspective, thinking that if you’re anywhere in between a championship-level team and an absolutely horrible team, then you’re just treadmilling.

If you trade any of the core 4 (Mitchell, Allen, Garland, Mobley, than it's basically an admission that the core 4 isn't good enough.

When I say the team has reached it's ceiling, i'm referring to it's core 4.

As for internal improvement, I already said I think he'll have a bounce back season but to what extent I don't know. Mitchell should he be there next season will take the majority of the shots so his volume scoring might not drastically raise.

As for Mobley, imo you really should just hand him the keys. While Mitchell is there, he's never going to get enough touches and will be the 3rd option on offense.

I'd honestly think about making big changes and make Mobley the #1 option to see what he can handle, feed him to the sharks and take off the training wheels.

In order for that to happen, Mitchell needs to go, Garland and/or Allen possibly as well.

If you think he has that potential, than you should have no qualms about the thought of making him the defacto #1 option on the team, which requires a big change to your starting lineup and some short term pain.


Edit: Doing quotes is sometimes a pain

[Chuck Everett]

Well, Koby Altman said he doesn't foresee sweeping changes, so the run it back campaign looks to be in effect. Maybe Mitchell or Garland are gone, but everyone else should be returning. If that's the case, then... the Cavs will be arguably the most polarizing team in the league to discuss during the 2024-25 season.

[jbk1234]

Well, Koby Altman said he doesn't foresee sweeping changes, so the run it back campaign looks to be in effect. Maybe Mitchell or Garland are gone, but everyone else should be returning. If that's the case, then... the Cavs will be arguably the most polarizing team in the league to discuss during the 2024-25 season.

When he was asked about breaking up Mitchell and Garland, his answer was I don't see why we should.

[Chuck Everett]

Well, Koby Altman said he doesn't foresee sweeping changes, so the run it back campaign looks to be in effect. Maybe Mitchell or Garland are gone, but everyone else should be returning. If that's the case, then... the Cavs will be arguably the most polarizing team in the league to discuss during the 2024-25 season.

When he was asked about breaking up Mitchell and Garland, his answer was I don't see why we should.

I wrote maybe. Not that it was for sure happening. Just because he didn't say they wouldn't break them up, doesn't mean much at the present moment. We still have an entire offseason where things can change or someone makes an offer they can't refuse.