Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[bledredwine]

The thing is, with the greatest players, you get a sense that they are in control of the game.

Jokic gives me reminders of Jordan when it comes to that. He can be quiet and yet somehow, he seems to
have control of the game. He's not relying on a few things.... he has an arsenal of thought/skills that work together.

ANT will also acquire that with time, like Jordan did. It takes an ability to lead the team as well.

[tsherkin]

(b) admit that Gobert actually has some useful offensive skill.

This is clearly true. He has no shooting touch to speak of, but his court mapping and sense of how to exploit space and his length, all that? Excellent. It's the same stuff which makes him highly skillful on the other end of the floor.

Either way, it renders the "Jokic isn't facing talented Cs of the 90's era" reasoning as null & void.

Yeah, that's still a little bit odd a phrase. The top tier of centers were really good in the 90s. There were also some mid-tier guys with offensive talent, or defensive talent. Or a little of both. Jokic has also dealt with Anthony Davis, who very much is in the mold of a center as a matchup. And of course Gobert is one of the best defensive centers we've seen. So yeah, attacking Jokic based on his competition is odd.

Like, he wouldn't be ruining 90s centers? What's Alonzo Mourning gonna do? Or Deke? Or Rik Smiths? Brad Daugherty? Ewing, Olajuwon, Dream and Shaq would be challenging without question but like, it isn't as if insane athleticism really stunts what Jokic does, and none of those guys ever guarded a center who could pass or shoot like Jokic.

[Jabroni Lames]

(b) admit that Gobert actually has some useful offensive skill.

This is clearly true. He has no shooting touch to speak of, but his court mapping and sense of how to exploit space and his length, all that? Excellent. It's the same stuff which makes him highly skillful on the other end of the floor.

Either way, it renders the "Jokic isn't facing talented Cs of the 90's era" reasoning as null & void.

Yeah, that's still a little bit odd a phrase. The top tier of centers were really good in the 90s. There were also some mid-tier guys with offensive talent, or defensive talent. Or a little of both. Jokic has also dealt with Anthony Davis, who very much is in the mold of a center as a matchup. And of course Gobert is one of the best defensive centers we've seen. So yeah, attacking Jokic based on his competition is odd.

Like, he wouldn't be ruining 90s centers? What's Alonzo Mourning gonna do? Or Deke? Or Rik Smiths? Brad Daugherty? Ewing, Olajuwon, Dream and Shaq would be challenging without question but like, it isn't as if insane athleticism really stunts what Jokic does, and none of those guys ever guarded a center who could pass or shoot like Jokic.

The problem is that Jokic pulls even those old school GOAT HoF centers out of the paint and can score or make plays above the break. They never had to face that type of beast back then. It nullifies a lot of their value to not be allowed to just camp in the paint and hang tight with big men who had to play close to the basket back then. Jokic is an entirely new animal. Basically 7ft, 280lb Larry Bird.

[Roger Murdock]

Rudy has had a usage rate between 14-17% his entire career. So he’s taken the offensive load of a #4 option throughout his career. He’s shown 0 ability to scale his volume because he’s unable to create any offense for himself. He’s only scored over 30 points once in his career and it was 7 years ago.

His career average shot is 2.2 feet from the basket. His shooting % outside of 3 feet from the hoop is atrocious. 80% of his shots are within 3 feet of the hoop. 72% of his field goals are assisted, and the remainder are primarily o boards.

You cannot call Rudy the most efficient player of all time. His TS% is entirely due to shot mix, and has no ability to scale with rate. And he plays during the era with the highest at rim FG% in NBA history due to space and pace of the game. It’s probable guys like Tyson Chandler, DeAndre Jordan, and Cedrick Maxwell would have higher TS% in todays league.

[DimesandKnicks]

Where are all those guys who said Jokic' doesn't have to face big defensive centers, like they had back in the 90's? Well, he's dominating the 7'2", 4-time reigning DPOY.

Like I said... Jokic can beat you in so many ways. If it's Gobert, he's drawing him out of the paint and making plays above the break... opening up the lane for his teammates and nullifying Rudy's real benefit. If it's KAT, he can abuse him in the post or kick out to shooters when the double team comes. Jokic is an entirely different type of animal than they had back in the 90s.... we done with that.

he can also hide on Gobert on the defensive end, as opposed to having to defend those guys. We’re still waiting for you to name that too end C talent that was better than that of the 90s

Gobert is the NBA all-time career leader in TS% and #2 all-time in EFG%. Let’s not pretend he’s some type of scrub offensively, when he’s literally more efficient than every big man that’s ever existed in the NBA. And Gobert isn’t even a modern big that shoots 3s, like say Turner or Lopez who would be impossible to guard back then. There… I just named 3, without even trying.

If you’re looking for unskilled scrub Cs, watch the 90s.

Why do people troll

[DimesandKnicks]

Gobert is the NBA all-time career leader in TS% and #2 all-time in EFG%. Let’s not pretend he’s some type of scrub offensively, when he’s literally more efficient than every big man that’s ever existed in the NBA. And Gobert isn’t even a modern big that shoots 3s, like say Turner or Lopez who would be impossible to guard back then. There… I just named 3, without even trying.

If you’re looking for unskilled scrub Cs, watch the 90s.

But you understand why this isn't a particularly good remark, right?

Gobert IS a very good finisher, but that TS% can only really be compared to people of comparably limited offensive responsibility. He has never taken more than 8.8 FGA/g in a season... and he's a sub-70% FT shooter. He has no range to speak of but relies on a.710 FTr in order to float his efficiency. Over 41% of his shots are dunks, over 72% of his shots are assisted, and over 75% of his shots are in the RA.

There is a reason he's THAT efficient. Skill is part of it, but low volume, heavy passing support and doing almost nothing but dunking assisted buckets while getting tons of foul calls goes a long way. Overselling that to reflect offensive ability when his scoring repertoire is that limited isn't the ideal.

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

[dhsilv2]

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Lets back up a bit here man. Gobert is a great player, but his rocks for hands really limit his availability to get those lobs and for his teammates to set him up. He's an offensive problem in terms of spacing and opening the lanes at times. He's not the dream lob threat. Give him Shaq's hands...and he's a 20 a game monster.

So by your reasoning, every unskilled, low usage, roll & cut big man should have at least equal or greater TS% & EFG% than Gobert. And that type of big man was the norm, until recently. Yet Gobert is the best of the best of that archetype. You basically have 2 choices in this argument: (a) admit that there was mostly no skill Cs in the 90's, or (b) admit that Gobert actually has some useful offensive skill. Either way, it renders the "Jokic isn't facing talented Cs of the 90's era" reasoning as null & void.

Let me state this again. Gobert has bad hands. His inability to receive difficult entry passes is a HUGE negative. If you can't get him the ball, his TS% doesn't matter.

[JM00n69]

But you understand why this isn't a particularly good remark, right?

Gobert IS a very good finisher, but that TS% can only really be compared to people of comparably limited offensive responsibility. He has never taken more than 8.8 FGA/g in a season... and he's a sub-70% FT shooter. He has no range to speak of but relies on a.710 FTr in order to float his efficiency. Over 41% of his shots are dunks, over 72% of his shots are assisted, and over 75% of his shots are in the RA.

There is a reason he's THAT efficient. Skill is part of it, but low volume, heavy passing support and doing almost nothing but dunking assisted buckets while getting tons of foul calls goes a long way. Overselling that to reflect offensive ability when his scoring repertoire is that limited isn't the ideal.

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

It definitely was a thing. PnR is the oldest play in the book. 90s you had fours and fives who couldn't shoot for **** but PnR and ISO guards were the main freelance plays. Malone made a HOF career of it.

The reason Gobert can't be effective at the roll is because he can't handle the ball. He's got the worst hands of any starting big in the league atm and if you ask him to catch, take one dribble and attack you might as well just throw the ball into the crowd. He's an all time great post defender because of his length and he's good at anticipating/getting to the right spot but he's slow to react to quick moves. That's why Jokic has never had problems against him.

[tsherkin]

The problem is that Jokic pulls even those old school GOAT HoF centers out of the paint and can score or make plays above the break. They never had to face that type of beast back then. It nullifies a lot of their value to not be allowed to just camp in the paint and hang tight with big men who had to play close to the basket back then. Jokic is an entirely new animal. Basically 7ft, 280lb Larry Bird.

He's an extension of an evolutionary chain which started way back in the 60s. We saw Walt Bellamy facing up and shooting a bit outside, we saw some of it from Lanier. We saw Jack Sikma. Even Kareem could go to 15 feet or so by his prime. And then into the 90s you had other guys like Smits and Daugherty and what-not, and then Ewing and Hakeem had 17 feet of range (and were face-up guys a lot of the time). And then Dirk and KG and even Webber from a stylistic point of view. The more skillful bigs tended to be PFs for a long time even as the height lined up. But it's an arc of development which isn't sudden or new. And yeah, it creates challenges, for sure. Jokic would 100% be a problem in absolutely any era.

"Entirely new animal" is not quite right, but he's certainly a monster.

[dautjazz]

28/14/9 and a 63TS% in the playoffs. Send him to the g-league !

Sent from my SM-S921U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Wallace_Wallace]

28/14/9 and a 63TS% in the playoffs. Send him to the g-league !

Sent from my SM-S921U using RealGM Forums mobile app

If Denver were to survive Minnesota, the next matchup for Jokic is Chet (Thunder) or Lively/Gafford (Mavericks). Those stats would continue to rise.

[Woodsanity]

Where this bum boy at? He disappeared when Jokic played well and Luka played like poo.

[Jabroni Lames]

But you understand why this isn't a particularly good remark, right?

Gobert IS a very good finisher, but that TS% can only really be compared to people of comparably limited offensive responsibility. He has never taken more than 8.8 FGA/g in a season... and he's a sub-70% FT shooter. He has no range to speak of but relies on a.710 FTr in order to float his efficiency. Over 41% of his shots are dunks, over 72% of his shots are assisted, and over 75% of his shots are in the RA.

There is a reason he's THAT efficient. Skill is part of it, but low volume, heavy passing support and doing almost nothing but dunking assisted buckets while getting tons of foul calls goes a long way. Overselling that to reflect offensive ability when his scoring repertoire is that limited isn't the ideal.

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

Well, I guess they were even less skilled than I remember (I'm 59, btw). lol. You teed it up perfectly.

[Jabroni Lames]

The problem is that Jokic pulls even those old school GOAT HoF centers out of the paint and can score or make plays above the break. They never had to face that type of beast back then. It nullifies a lot of their value to not be allowed to just camp in the paint and hang tight with big men who had to play close to the basket back then. Jokic is an entirely new animal. Basically 7ft, 280lb Larry Bird.

He's an extension of an evolutionary chain which started way back in the 60s. We saw Walt Bellamy facing up and shooting a bit outside, we saw some of it from Lanier. We saw Jack Sikma. Even Kareem could go to 15 feet or so by his prime. And then into the 90s you had other guys like Smits and Daugherty and what-not, and then Ewing and Hakeem had 17 feet of range (and were face-up guys a lot of the time). And then Dirk and KG and even Webber from a stylistic point of view. The more skillful bigs tended to be PFs for a long time even as the height lined up. But it's an arc of development which isn't sudden or new. And yeah, it creates challenges, for sure. Jokic would 100% be a problem in absolutely any era.

"Entirely new animal" is not quite right, but he's certainly a monster.

The evolution of Marc Gasol might be the closest comp, offensively, with Jokic being better at playmaking, post-up & shooting. Gasol, of course, being a lot better at defense. Similar IQ, body types and athleticism (or lack thereof).

[tsherkin]

The evolution of Marc Gasol might be the closest comp, offensively, with Jokic being better at playmaking, post-up & shooting. Gasol, of course, being a lot better at defense. Similar IQ, body types and athleticism (or lack thereof).

I'm not sure that's a good one, given that Gasol is more of a competent offensive player and a defensive monster and Jokic is the inversion of that. Body type alone doesn't make that a particularly good comparison, IMHO.

[DimesandKnicks]

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

Well, I guess they were even less skilled than I remember (I'm 59, btw). lol. You teed it up perfectly.

Jabroni, they were busy actually posting up, using their footwork and touch around the basket. Mitchell Robinson and Deandre Jordan aren’t more skilled offensive players than Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson

[DimesandKnicks]

You do understand why your remark isn't particularly relevant. Gobert is basically like the absolute best version of the roll and cut bigs that existed in the 90s and KAT is a modern mobile big.... 2 opposite extremes. Yet, Jokic is dominating BOTH of them. The poster was trying to imply that after 2 games, Jokic was finally facing some talent at C that he doesn't normally see that in this weak era, and now he's stumbling. Not sure why he can't see that the talent at C is literally the opposite..... it's light years ahead of what existed in the 90s. Like 50% of those stiff Cs would be deep bench or out of the league entirely.

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

It definitely was a thing. PnR is the oldest play in the book. 90s you had fours and fives who couldn't shoot for **** but PnR and ISO guards were the main freelance plays. Malone made a HOF career of it.

The reason Gobert can't be effective at the roll is because he can't handle the ball. He's got the worst hands of any starting big in the league atm and if you ask him to catch, take one dribble and attack you might as well just throw the ball into the crowd. He's an all time great post defender because of his length and he's good at anticipating/getting to the right spot but he's slow to react to quick moves. That's why Jokic has never had problems against him.

Spamming pick and rolls the way they do in the NBA wasn’t as prominent as it is today

[NZB2323]

Where are all those guys who said Jokic' doesn't have to face big defensive centers, like they had back in the 90's? Well, he's dominating the 7'2", 4-time reigning DPOY.

Like I said... Jokic can beat you in so many ways. If it's Gobert, he's drawing him out of the paint and making plays above the break... opening up the lane for his teammates and nullifying Rudy's real benefit. If it's KAT, he can abuse him in the post or kick out to shooters when the double team comes. Jokic is an entirely different type of animal than they had back in the 90s.... we done with that.

he can also hide on Gobert on the defensive end, as opposed to having to defend those guys. We’re still waiting for you to name that too end C talent that was better than that of the 90s

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

[tsherkin]

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

It definitely was a thing. PnR is the oldest play in the book. 90s you had fours and fives who couldn't shoot for **** but PnR and ISO guards were the main freelance plays. Malone made a HOF career of it.

The reason Gobert can't be effective at the roll is because he can't handle the ball. He's got the worst hands of any starting big in the league atm and if you ask him to catch, take one dribble and attack you might as well just throw the ball into the crowd. He's an all time great post defender because of his length and he's good at anticipating/getting to the right spot but he's slow to react to quick moves. That's why Jokic has never had problems against him.

Spamming pick and rolls the way they do in the NBA wasn’t as prominent as it is today

I hasten to add to this... the Jazz largely popularized the PnR as a core offensive system. It existed in the league before, even Magic was doing it and it predates him by decades, but it's usage and complexity have dramatically risen over the past decade or so.

[DimesandKnicks]

Where are all those guys who said Jokic' doesn't have to face big defensive centers, like they had back in the 90's? Well, he's dominating the 7'2", 4-time reigning DPOY.

Like I said... Jokic can beat you in so many ways. If it's Gobert, he's drawing him out of the paint and making plays above the break... opening up the lane for his teammates and nullifying Rudy's real benefit. If it's KAT, he can abuse him in the post or kick out to shooters when the double team comes. Jokic is an entirely different type of animal than they had back in the 90s.... we done with that.

he can also hide on Gobert on the defensive end, as opposed to having to defend those guys. We’re still waiting for you to name that too end C talent that was better than that of the 90s

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

I think you guys are missing my point. Jokic would actually have to defend the great offensive big men of that day. The way Hakeem and Duncan went at eachother, the way Shaq and Hakeem went at eachother, the way Ewing and Hakeem went at eachother…on both ends. These players were dealing with two way players…not Rudy Gobert