Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[Woodsanity]

he can also hide on Gobert on the defensive end, as opposed to having to defend those guys. We’re still waiting for you to name that too end C talent that was better than that of the 90s

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

I think you guys are missing my point. Jokic would actually have to defend the great offensive big men of that day. The way Hakeem and Duncan went at eachother, the way Shaq and Hakeem went at eachother, the way Ewing and Hakeem went at eachother…on both ends. These players were dealing with two way players…not Rudy Gobert

Anthony Davis isn't exactly a chump offensively. Prime for Prime I hate to say it but he's more versatile than Ewing on offense though I still view Ewing better overall.

[MarcusBrody]

he can also hide on Gobert on the defensive end, as opposed to having to defend those guys. We’re still waiting for you to name that too end C talent that was better than that of the 90s

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

I think you guys are missing my point. Jokic would actually have to defend the great offensive big men of that day. The way Hakeem and Duncan went at eachother, the way Shaq and Hakeem went at eachother, the way Ewing and Hakeem went at eachother…on both ends. These players were dealing with two way players…not Rudy Gobert

Jokic is a good post defender. He's strong with quick feet and hands. Post defense being more important in a former era would flatter rather than diminish Jokic's skill set.

[DimesandKnicks]

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

I think you guys are missing my point. Jokic would actually have to defend the great offensive big men of that day. The way Hakeem and Duncan went at eachother, the way Shaq and Hakeem went at eachother, the way Ewing and Hakeem went at eachother…on both ends. These players were dealing with two way players…not Rudy Gobert

Anthony Davis isn't exactly a chump offensively. Prime for Prime I hate to say it but he's more versatile than Ewing on offense though I still view Ewing better overall.

if Ewing is better overall what was the point of this post?

[DimesandKnicks]

Were Mutumbo and Mourning great offensive players?

Gobert/KAT/Reid is a solid big man combination. Jokic also went through AD and Bam last year. Shaq won a finals MVP over Todd MacCulloch. If we want to diminish accomplishments we can say that Hakeem won while Jordan was playing baseball. We can say that Shaq only won in 2002 because of the refs in game 6 against the Kings. We can say that Kareem won 1 championship without Magic.

Great players would be great in any era. It doesn’t matter if it’s Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, or Jokic.

I think you guys are missing my point. Jokic would actually have to defend the great offensive big men of that day. The way Hakeem and Duncan went at eachother, the way Shaq and Hakeem went at eachother, the way Ewing and Hakeem went at eachother…on both ends. These players were dealing with two way players…not Rudy Gobert

Jokic is a good post defender. He's strong with quick feet and hands. Post defense being more important in a former era would flatter rather than diminish Jokic's skill set.

Who is he guarding in the post?

[tsherkin]

Anthony Davis isn't exactly a chump offensively. Prime for Prime I hate to say it but he's more versatile than Ewing on offense though I still view Ewing better overall.

Ewing didn't stun on offense. He traveled every time he faced up, he couldn't pass and he struggled in the playoffs at times. It's better to think of him as a guy who wildly overachieved after being considered a defensive specialist than as a good offensive piece. He was, however, an ATG defensive force at the head of an historic defensive team for those 93 and 94 Knicks.

Anthony Davis is CONSIDERABLY better than Ewing on offense, but of course, also Mr. Glass, which Ewing was not. Pat had like a decade of 76+ games played, including 80+ in 6 straight. He wasn't Karl Malone, but he was very, very present.

[Jabroni Lames]

Roll and cut bigs of the 90s . That wasn’t really a thing

Well, I guess they were even less skilled than I remember (I'm 59, btw). lol. You teed it up perfectly.

Jabroni, they were busy actually posting up, using their footwork and touch around the basket. Mitchell Robinson and Deandre Jordan aren’t more skilled offensive players than Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson

lol. You only cherry pick Hall of Famers? I had no idea that Shawn Bradley, Will Perdue, Greg Ostertag and Mike Gminski were that skilled. And congrats to my man, Zan Tabak. I stand corrected.

[DimesandKnicks]

Well, I guess they were even less skilled than I remember (I'm 59, btw). lol. You teed it up perfectly.

Jabroni, they were busy actually posting up, using their footwork and touch around the basket. Mitchell Robinson and Deandre Jordan aren’t more skilled offensive players than Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson

lol. You only cherry pick Hall of Famers? I had no idea that Shawn Bradley, Will Perdue, Greg Ostertag and Mike Gminski were that skilled. And congrats to my man, Zan Tabak. I stand corrected.

Yea. Jabroni, I said top end talent…they just happened to not only be hall of famers but top 75 players of all time. Conversely you cherry picked some of the worst. I can name at least 15 C’s in the 90s who are better than Greg Ostertag who never managed to play at least 30 minutes (and in this NBA Malone has all the physical tools to start at C ). And Shawn Bradley is 15th all-time in blocks and outside of Dwight Howard everyone above him played in the 90s.

[QPR]

People love to romanticise about 90s bigs and how hard it was

[tsherkin]

People love to romanticise about 90s bigs and how hard it was

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

[CobraCommander]

360 backflip dunks...?

Then and only then will they give him his due -

But Edward knows what Lebron knows what curry knows what Embiid knows - this is the best guy on earth - and is going to be in the top 15 guaranteed and he is the only one truely trending that way in the nba under 30 -

Giannis on cusp but we need more… sorry

Giannis is a top 10 all time talent...but dude's gotta stay healthy! That said Luka is certainly trending that way, but he's got a lot of years left before 30.

Luka not trending top 10 all time- Luka is tending more like harden - He begging for FOuls and coming in out of shape -

The top 10- top 20 guys win rings and MVPs and make winning happen. -

Jokic is the only one younger than 30 really trending top 10- Luka 25… he has a great team- he has to be better - Luka clearly behind SGA right now and SGA ain’t top 10 or 20 right now

[DimesandKnicks]

People love to romanticise about 90s bigs and how hard it was

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

They call it the golden age for Centers for a reason

[QPR]

People love to romanticise about 90s bigs and how hard it was

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

They call it the golden age for Centers for a reason

There were some all time greats no doubt. There were also a lot of scrubs and a lot of inefficient post play.

[tsherkin]

People love to romanticise about 90s bigs and how hard it was

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

They call it the golden age for Centers for a reason

The top end of that era was quite good, yes. Misunderstood in how they approached the game, though. More range, more triple threat than remembered. Less back-to-the-basket iso post than is often represented. Considerably more contemporary in their basic approach than is often discussed. Especially Olajuwon.

[NO-KG-AI]

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

They call it the golden age for Centers for a reason

The top end of that era was quite good, yes. Misunderstood in how they approached the game, though. More range, more triple threat than remembered. Less back-to-the-basket iso post than is often represented. Considerably more contemporary in their basic approach than is often discussed. Especially Olajuwon.

I did always find it ironic that the most famous Hakeem video, the one of him putting Robinson in the blender is proof to people that he only used the post and wouldn’t fit todays game or whatever when the entire sequence starts with a face up drive and a crossover .

[tsherkin]

I did always find it ironic that the most famous Hakeem video, the one of him putting Robinson in the blender is proof to people that he only used the post and wouldn’t fit todays game or whatever when the entire sequence starts with a face up drive and a crossover .

Right?

And like, Ewing and Robinson were both quite capable face-up slashers from the elbow. Robinson LOOOOOVED cross-screens for mismatches against shorter guys there. And Ewing loved a Bosh-type face-up from the elbow or a little further out. Also on the baseline. Big, ol' rumbling Pat. xD

[Infinite Llamas]

Starting centers in 1995-96

Atl Andrew Lang
Bos Eric Montross
Cha Matt Geiger/Robert Parish
Chi Luc Longley
Cle Michael Cage
Dal Lorenzo Williams
Den Dikembe Mutombo
Det Otis Thorpe
Gs Rony Seikaly
Hou Hakeem Olajuwon
Ind Rik Smits
Lac Brian Williams
Lal Vlade Divac
Mia Alonzo Mourning
Mil Benoit Benjamin
Min Tom Gugliotta?
NJ Shawn Bradley
NY Patrick Ewing
Orl Shaquille O’Neal
Phi Derrick Alston/Sharone Wright
Pho Hot Rod Williams
Por Chris Dudley
Sac Olden Polynice
SA David Robinson
Sea Ervin Johnson
Tor Oliver Miller
Utah Felton Spencer
Van Bryant Reeves
Was Georghe Muresan

So yeah. A lot of really talented guys at the top and some guys that would be hard pressed to make rosters today. Jokic would have been just fine in the 90’s.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yeah, I mean, a bunch of them were really damned good. But everyone acts like the whole class of them was pulling a Shaq and doing nothing but cuts around penetration and low-block isos, which is hysterical.

They call it the golden age for Centers for a reason

There were some all time greats no doubt. There were also a lot of scrubs and a lot of inefficient post play.

Bottom line, the C’s back then are better than the C’s now and half the PF of that time would be playing C now which would make that pool of great C play even better. I’m not saying anything controversial. It’s okay to acknowledge that the C’s in the 90s were better than now without trying to insert unnecessary qualifiers.

[DimesandKnicks]

Starting centers in 1995-96

Atl Andrew Lang
Bos Eric Montross
Cha Matt Geiger/Robert Parish
Chi Luc Longley
Cle Michael Cage
Dal Lorenzo Williams
Den Dikembe Mutombo
Det Otis Thorpe
Gs Rony Seikaly
Hou Hakeem Olajuwon
Ind Rik Smits
Lac Brian Williams
Lal Vlade Divac
Mia Alonzo Mourning
Mil Benoit Benjamin
Min Tom Gugliotta?
NJ Shawn Bradley
NY Patrick Ewing
Orl Shaquille O’Neal
Phi Derrick Alston/Sharone Wright
Pho Hot Rod Williams
Por Chris Dudley
Sac Olden Polynice
SA David Robinson
Sea Ervin Johnson
Tor Oliver Miller
Utah Felton Spencer
Van Bryant Reeves
Was Georghe Muresan

So yeah. A lot of really talented guys at the top and some guys that would be hard pressed to make rosters today. Jokic would have been just fine in the 90’s.

The 90s encapsule an entire decade, not just one year. And a lot of the PF’s in the 90s would be playing Center today which would deepen that pool

[tsherkin]

Bottom line, the C’s back then are better than the C’s now

That isn't really a given, no. And a lot of them very clearly were not better than guys playing today.

[Special_Puppy]

Then and only then will they give him his due -

But Edward knows what Lebron knows what curry knows what Embiid knows - this is the best guy on earth - and is going to be in the top 15 guaranteed and he is the only one truely trending that way in the nba under 30 -

Giannis on cusp but we need more… sorry

Giannis is a top 10 all time talent...but dude's gotta stay healthy! That said Luka is certainly trending that way, but he's got a lot of years left before 30.

Luka not trending top 10 all time- Luka is tending more like harden - He begging for FOuls and coming in out of shape -

The top 10- top 20 guys win rings and MVPs and make winning happen. -

Jokic is the only one younger than 30 really trending top 10- Luka 25… he has a great team- he has to be better - Luka clearly behind SGA right now and SGA ain’t top 10 or 20 right now

Top 10 all time is an insanely hard bar to reach. You basically have to be near Magic Johnson in career value to break into the top 10. LeBron might be the only active player who will end up clearing that bar! Top 20 is a more realistic bar for players we are excited about and is effectively the new top 10 given how old the NBA is now