Is Jamal Murray the most overrated player in the league?

[sp6r=underrated]

Player hurt playing on a bad knee - just buried two of the most cold blooded game winners in the history of the universe and he overrated ?

A champion too!

Man someone needs to never allow someone else to start a thread lol

People need to stop over rating hitting shots when the game is tied. If you miss nothing, the games goes into overtime and if you hit then its all flowers and praise. There is no pressure to those shots. Nothing clutch at all. Hell, the dude was the sole reason the Denver wasnt already winning those games.

People can be so short sighted sometimes.

Fans have a weird tendency to assume a game will be close when evaluating players. Murray would be much more valuable as a player if he was 10% better for the first 47 minutes and 10% worse for the last minute. Under that scenario, Murray would be winning more games for Denver in the first 47 minutes than you'd lose in the final minute.

Final second shots are over valued.

[Stan]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

It's like one played with Jokic and the other didn't.

[CobraCommander]

People need to stop over rating hitting shots when the game is tied. If you miss nothing, the games goes into overtime and if you hit then its all flowers and praise. There is no pressure to those shots. Nothing clutch at all. Hell, the dude was the sole reason the Denver wasnt already winning those games.

People can be so short sighted sometimes.

You have never played ball right?
No disrespect- it’s just obvious-

If someone plays ball they get this -

It’s not about the difficulty of the shot, or free throw or field goal - it’s about executing everything properly in the moment that decides the game.

The pressure is higher if you are down one - but that doesn’t change that taking and making that shot is special - especially in the playoffs.

Situation matters of course but he delivered in the clutch -

Once to win a game and another to win a series -

bull.

Sure -

The game winner is a high leverage moment - those matter

[Duke4life831]

Denver got the good side of the coin flip with Murray last year and are getting the bad side this year.

This is the downside of relying on Murray being your #2 come playoff time. First of all “playoff Murray” was very inconsistent to begin with. But relying on a non all star to step up his game to legit championship level #2 in the playoffs year in and year out, is just not a gamble I would roll with.

This isn't a perfect parallel but there was a large stretch where Dallas rolled with Jason Terry as Dirk's # 2 for much of his prime. And yeah it was kind of similar. Terry would have good moments where it looked reasonably and then he would completely crap the bed for a series.

Ya that’s probably the best comp in recent times. He didn’t have the same usage as Murray. But ya I would say that’s the best comp.

When Terry stepped it up, the dude was big time in the playoffs. But ya you also had those playoff series where he just didn’t show up and he was just a small guard taking and missing bad shots.

[Chuck Everett]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

It's like one played with Jokic and the other didn't.

Jokic has only been to the Finals once in his career. You act like he's taken/led the Nuggets to 6 of them. If Jokic had that kind of postseason dominance I might be inclined to agree, but two conference finals (one of which was a bubble appearance) throughout his career isn't enough for that kind of knob slobbery. Jokic needs Murray and vice versa. They are a dynamic duo.

Some of you guys really act like Jokic is so great that he automatically makes you the title favorite. Like it doesn't matter what kind of roster he's playing with. He 100% makes the Nuggets a contender, but he still has legit deficiencies that can be exploited by quality opponents.

[NZB2323]

No that's Haliburton. At least Murray tries. Haliburton getting only 6 points as a premier star and showing no effort defensively was a much worse performance

Yes. There was a thread this year asking if Haliburton was the GOAT offensive player in NBA history.

[NZB2323]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

It's like one played with Jokic and the other didn't.

Jokic has only been to the Finals once in his career. You act like he's taken/led the Nuggets to 6 of them. If Jokic had that kind of postseason dominance I might be inclined to agree, but two conference finals (one of which was a bubble appearance) throughout his career isn't enough for that kind of knob slobbery. Jokic needs Murray and vice versa. They are a dynamic duo.

Some of you guys really act like Jokic is so great that he automatically makes you the title favorite. Like it doesn't matter what kind of roster he's playing with. He 100% makes the Nuggets a contender, but he still has legit deficiencies that can be exploited by quality opponents.

Mitchell has 3 playoff games where he’s scored 50 or more points. Only Jordan and Wilt have more.

Jokic is way better than any player Mitchell has played with.

[MrBigShot]

Not even close. There are plenty of empty stat guys who crap the bed in the playoffs. Until this season murray has been good in the playoffs, and last year he even won a championship in case people forgot.

[LaLover11]

Garland

[jokeboy86]

Denver got the good side of the coin flip with Murray last year and are getting the bad side this year.

This is the downside of relying on Murray being your #2 come playoff time. First of all “playoff Murray” was very inconsistent to begin with. But relying on a non all star to step up his game to legit championship level #2 in the playoffs year in and year out, is just not a gamble I would roll with.

He’s a non all star player playing below his regular season norm these playoffs. Don’t know if Jokic is finally showing fatigue of having to carry this team all season and playoffs long for multiple years. Or he’s just checking out because he’s getting frustrated from it. But if I was Denver, I’d really be questioning if I wanted to roll with Murray as my #2 going forward.

Would you take Murray or Middleton? I have both of them in the same tier which is why I think it's going to be really hard for either Jokic or Giannis to get that 2nd title. For a great player to win 2 or more rings they usually need their #2 to be someone who's trending towards the HOF. I think the Bucks maybe thought that Middleton wasn't good enough to get Giannis a 2nd ring and that's why they went to get Lillard. Will be interesting if Denver ever comes to that conclusion so they don't possibly waste Jokic's prime.

[Special_Puppy]

Denver got the good side of the coin flip with Murray last year and are getting the bad side this year.

This is the downside of relying on Murray being your #2 come playoff time. First of all “playoff Murray” was very inconsistent to begin with. But relying on a non all star to step up his game to legit championship level #2 in the playoffs year in and year out, is just not a gamble I would roll with.

He’s a non all star player playing below his regular season norm these playoffs. Don’t know if Jokic is finally showing fatigue of having to carry this team all season and playoffs long for multiple years. Or he’s just checking out because he’s getting frustrated from it. But if I was Denver, I’d really be questioning if I wanted to roll with Murray as my #2 going forward.

Would you take Murray or Middleton? I have both of them in the same tier which is why I think it's going to be really hard for either Jokic or Giannis to get that 2nd title. For a great player to win 2 or more rings they usually need their #2 to be someone who's trending towards the HOF. I think the Bucks maybe thought that Middleton wasn't good enough to get Giannis a 2nd ring and that's why they went to get Lillard. Will be interesting if Denver ever comes to that conclusion so they don't possibly waste Jokic's prime.

Need a Jokić+Giannis team up

[Roger Murdock]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

Mitchell has the burden of being the best player on his team every season of his career whereas Murray is never the best player on the floor for his team. And Mitchell has had some great post seasons.

Murray would never get a chance to do it when it matters most if he was the best player on his team, because he wouldnt make the playoffs.

[damanick10]

He hasn’t even been an all star. He can be hot or cold I don’t think he’s overrated. He was special during their chip run.

[Duke4life831]

Denver got the good side of the coin flip with Murray last year and are getting the bad side this year.

This is the downside of relying on Murray being your #2 come playoff time. First of all “playoff Murray” was very inconsistent to begin with. But relying on a non all star to step up his game to legit championship level #2 in the playoffs year in and year out, is just not a gamble I would roll with.

He’s a non all star player playing below his regular season norm these playoffs. Don’t know if Jokic is finally showing fatigue of having to carry this team all season and playoffs long for multiple years. Or he’s just checking out because he’s getting frustrated from it. But if I was Denver, I’d really be questioning if I wanted to roll with Murray as my #2 going forward.

Would you take Murray or Middleton? I have both of them in the same tier which is why I think it's going to be really hard for either Jokic or Giannis to get that 2nd title. For a great player to win 2 or more rings they usually need their #2 to be someone who's trending towards the HOF. I think the Bucks maybe thought that Middleton wasn't good enough to get Giannis a 2nd ring and that's why they went to get Lillard. Will be interesting if Denver ever comes to that conclusion so they don't possibly waste Jokic's prime.

Ya I would have them on the same tier as well. Middleton is more consistent and gives you a better regular season. While Murray gives you more highs.

But ya I think similar issue with Middleton or Jason Terry as your #2. If your #1 has a freakishly great run and this #2 plays above their means, you can win. But don’t really love the odds of relying on that combo to win multiple championships in a 3-5 year window.

[dhsilv2]

You have never played ball right?
No disrespect- it’s just obvious-

If someone plays ball they get this -

It’s not about the difficulty of the shot, or free throw or field goal - it’s about executing everything properly in the moment that decides the game.

The pressure is higher if you are down one - but that doesn’t change that taking and making that shot is special - especially in the playoffs.

Situation matters of course but he delivered in the clutch -

Once to win a game and another to win a series -

bull.

Sure -

The game winner is a high leverage moment - those matter

Even if they matter 1,000% more than others. In totality, it isn't that important. The first 47+ minutes will matter more.

[dhsilv2]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

It's like one played with Jokic and the other didn't.

Jokic has only been to the Finals once in his career. You act like he's taken/led the Nuggets to 6 of them. If Jokic had that kind of postseason dominance I might be inclined to agree, but two conference finals (one of which was a bubble appearance) throughout his career isn't enough for that kind of knob slobbery. Jokic needs Murray and vice versa. They are a dynamic duo.

Some of you guys really act like Jokic is so great that he automatically makes you the title favorite. Like it doesn't matter what kind of roster he's playing with. He 100% makes the Nuggets a contender, but he still has legit deficiencies that can be exploited by quality opponents.

No player in NBA history has or will make any team an automatic title favorite. But Jokic needs one of like 20 all star level wings/guards in the league to have denver in a good place to contend. Murray is good enough to be a number 2 type player without an all time great. Their needs aren't the same.

[dhsilv2]

Still won a title as a number two. Guy's a made man. The goal of this game is to win. All that other stuff is just blather. Who cares if Donovan Mitchell has been better during the regular season? Murray did it when it matters the most.

Mitchell has the burden of being the best player on his team every season of his career whereas Murray is never the best player on the floor for his team. And Mitchell has had some great post seasons.

Murray would never get a chance to do it when it matters most if he was the best player on his team, because he wouldnt make the playoffs.

Gobert was the best player on the Jazz. Mitchell has been the best offensive player and got to coast on the other end of the floor. That said Mitchell is the better player of the two.

[Pelly24]

I think this: You can't throw away Murray's 2020 and 2023 playoff runs. But between health and his general erratic play, he's not quite stable enough for Jokic. Jokic needs a player whose worst games are still not so bad. He needs someone who makes little plays, gets rebounds, plays defense and can get to the line at times. I think that's a top 15-20 type of player. Jamal is, all things considered, a top 40 or so player, it just so happens that Jokic is insanely good. They Nuggets also need to upgrade MPJ. That guy just sucks. Three straight single digit games in these circumstances is unbelievably bad. Had he been even regular like 16 points on 13 shots or something nuggets probably win this series.

[Woodsanity]

I can't believe these are the numbers Jamal Murray had.

PER: 12.3
BPM: -1.4

This is like Mo Williams esque production or worse.

[tsherkin]

I think this: You can't throw away Murray's 2020 and 2023 playoff runs. But between health and his general erratic play, he's not quite stable enough for Jokic. Jokic needs a player whose worst games are still not so bad. He needs someone who makes little plays, gets rebounds, plays defense and can get to the line at times. I think that's a top 15-20 type of player. Jamal is, all things considered, a top 40 or so player, it just so happens that Jokic is insanely good. They Nuggets also need to upgrade MPJ. That guy just sucks. Three straight single digit games in these circumstances is unbelievably bad. Had he been even regular like 16 points on 13 shots or something nuggets probably win this series.

I don't even think this is it.

They need a buffer from a third guy, that's all. If MPJ hadn't been a flaming dumpster fire that series, this would have been a Denver win with no change from Murray, you know what I mean?

Murray's fine. They need more punch from the bench and more from their 3rd guy more so than any issue with Jamal.