Stein's all-star selections

[Doctor MJ]

My choices:

Camby
Nowitzki
Marion
Paul/Davis
Nash/Ginobili

Bosh
Pierce/Jamison
Butler
Billups/Johnson
Allen

If they won't slide Bosh over to center, take Jamison off, and add Sheed.

[GJense4181]

^That's confusing.
C
PF
SF
PG/PG?
PG/SG?
and
C
SF/PF
SF
PG/SG
SG?

[Doctor MJ]

^That's confusing.
C
PF
SF
PG/PG?
PG/SG?
and
C
SF/PF
SF
PG/SG
SG?

The all-star committee doesn't differentiate beyond F and G, so I'm not either.

[Boogie-Boogz]

[quote="theGreatRC"]-= original quote snipped =-



Jose Calderon is a good pick, he plays like a top 6 PG when he starts IMO, but he doesn't average double digit assists as a starter, it's more like 9.3(Yeah, i'm picky)

Btw, you have the gayest avatar i've seen so far..[/quote]
What you talkin bout? Dexters gangsta

[B Mac]

I think Z makes it in. So does Piston's coach Flip Saunders...

"...I think the coaches will probably pick (Cleveland's Zydrunas ) Ilgauskas ," Saunders said.

Thats from the Detroit news.

[Ballings7]

Other than 1 or 2 choices on each conference, it's good.

But as an aside, why do Stein's reserve picks matter anymore than a decent poster's picks on this board?

[KJ7]

Wait a sec ... so Amare goes from 1st team All-NBA to not even making the All-Star game after having a better season?

If this happens I'll be simply stunned!

[pillwenney]

East
Chauncey
Paul Pierce
Rip
Caron
Bosh

These choices were pretty easy frankly at this point. Rip has really been all-star worthy this year. If he had been playing more minutes, his scoring totals would be close to many of these guys while doing so more efficiently. Put that with really solid all around numbers, solid D, and playing on a winning team, and that decision is pretty easy. The same things go for Chauncey and Pierce. Butler has been playing crazy ball this year and is really kind of carrying Washington, and Bosh is Bosh, and well, he's the only big worthy, really.
The tough part comes when trying to pick 2 out of this group.

Hedo
Jamison
Jose Calderon
Josh Smith
Joe Johnson
Gerald Wallace
Richard Jefferson

I think I would actually ultimately go with Calderon and Josh Smith. My main reasoning for Smith is that statistically, he blows others out of the water, and his team while not great is in position for a playoff birth. He also kind of fills a need for this perimeter-happy lineup since he's kind of a PF.
My main reason for picking Calderon over Hedo (probably would be my 1st alternate) is that while Orlando's record is a little bit better than Toronto's, first off they have been kind of struggling lately, so that may not be so true when the all-star break is here. Secondly, Calderon and Bosh are far and away the best players on Toronto. So Toronto really has 2 all-star caliber players. I see Hedo's situation as being a little bit easier, considering that Shard isn't too far off from being all-star worthy himself--that along with the fact that Dwight has simply been better this year than Bosh. So my final lineup here is...

Kidd\Chauncey\Calderon
Wade\Rip
Lebron\Pierce
Garnett\Caron\Jo. Smith
Howard\Bosh

As for the West, my locks are...

West
Nash
Paul
Dirk

Man, even putting Dirk there is tough. Well, here are the others vying for the other 4 spots on my list.

Deron
Baron

Roy
Ginobili
Martin

Howard
Marion

Boozer
Amare

Kaman
Camby

I almost want to put Deron in just because of last year, and because frankly his stats are better than Baron's. But I don't know if I can justify putting 2 Jazz players on, considering how they've underachieved. That's another factor when comparing Deron with Baron. The Warriors have, if anything, overachieved, and while Baron has a lot of talent around him, he doesn't have a Boozer.
I have the same Jazz dilemma with Denver. Camby is, in many ways deserving, but can one really justify 3 all-stars from Denver? Also, personally, I think Kaman is more deserving, considering that he doesn't exactly have the talent around him that Camby has. And on that token, is Amare more deserving than Kaman? I don't know about that. Ultimately I think the top 10 teams all deserve to have someone go. So that means that Baron has to go, which means that Boozer has to go, and Roy has to go. So the leaves off Camby (for reasons already stated), Deron (because the PG spot is beyond full and Boozer is going) and Martin (if nothing else, being out for a month killed his chances when it's this competitive).
So I have one spot left, and the candidates to fill it are Ginobili, Howard, Marion, Amare and Kaman. With Ginobili his per minute production is really insane and despite what some may say about the Spurs, he is the second best player on an elite team. On the other hand, he plays less than 30MPG, so he's kind of a novelty pick, in a way.
With only one spot left, I already did the comparison between Howard and Marion and I feel Howard has simply been the better player this year, so that eliminates Marion.
Ultimately, even though Kaman is deserving, he's still proving unable to really carry his team anywhere, and that ultimately hurts him.
I think with Manu being a weird pick because of his minutes and with Howard just frankly being better over all this year, that Howard is more deserving between those two. So it ends up being between Howard and Amare. I'd say that they're frankly close to equal as players over all, and Phoenix has the slightly better record. But, ironically enough, I think this comes down to the same deciding factor that I had in the east--that Howard is one of 2 all-star caliber players on Dallas and Amare is 1 of 3 in Phoenix. So, reluctantly, I have to go with Howard here. So my final all-star lineup is....

Iverson\Paul\Baron
Kobe\Nash\Roy
Melo\Howard
Duncan\Boozer
Yao\Dirk

[The_Believer]

East
Chauncey
Paul Pierce
Rip
Caron
Bosh

These choices were pretty easy frankly at this point. Rip has really been all-star worthy this year. If he had been playing more minutes, his scoring totals would be close to many of these guys while doing so more efficiently. Put that with really solid all around numbers, solid D, and playing on a winning team, and that decision is pretty easy. The same things go for Chauncey and Pierce. Butler has been playing crazy ball this year and is really kind of carrying Washington, and Bosh is Bosh, and well, he's the only big worthy, really.
The tough part comes when trying to pick 2 out of this group.

Hedo
Jamison
Jose Calderon
Josh Smith
Joe Johnson
Gerald Wallace
Richard Jefferson

I think I would actually ultimately go with Calderon and Josh Smith. My main reasoning for Smith is that statistically, he blows others out of the water, and his team while not great is in position for a playoff birth. He also kind of fills a need for this perimeter-happy lineup since he's kind of a PF.
My main reason for picking Calderon over Hedo (probably would be my 1st alternate) is that while Orlando's record is a little bit better than Toronto's, first off they have been kind of struggling lately, so that may not be so true when the all-star break is here. Secondly, Calderon and Bosh are far and away the best players on Toronto. So Toronto really has 2 all-star caliber players. I see Hedo's situation as being a little bit easier, considering that Shard isn't too far off from being all-star worthy himself--that along with the fact that Dwight has simply been better this year than Bosh. So my final lineup here is...

Kidd\Chauncey\Calderon
Wade\Rip
Lebron\Pierce
Garnett\Caron\Jo. Smith
Howard\Bosh

As for the West, my locks are...

West
Nash
Paul
Dirk

Man, even putting Dirk there is tough. Well, here are the others vying for the other 4 spots on my list.

Deron
Baron

Roy
Ginobili
Martin

Howard
Marion

Boozer
Amare

Kaman
Camby

I almost want to put Deron in just because of last year, and because frankly his stats are better than Baron's. But I don't know if I can justify putting 2 Jazz players on, considering how they've underachieved. That's another factor when comparing Deron with Baron. The Warriors have, if anything, overachieved, and while Baron has a lot of talent around him, he doesn't have a Boozer.
I have the same Jazz dilemma with Denver. Camby is, in many ways deserving, but can one really justify 3 all-stars from Denver? Also, personally, I think Kaman is more deserving, considering that he doesn't exactly have the talent around him that Camby has. And on that token, is Amare more deserving than Kaman? I don't know about that. Ultimately I think the top 10 teams all deserve to have someone go. So that means that Baron has to go, which means that Boozer has to go, and Roy has to go. So the leaves off Camby (for reasons already stated), Deron (because the PG spot is beyond full and Boozer is going) and Martin (if nothing else, being out for a month killed his chances when it's this competitive).
So I have one spot left, and the candidates to fill it are Ginobili, Howard, Marion, Amare and Kaman. With Ginobili his per minute production is really insane and despite what some may say about the Spurs, he is the second best player on an elite team. On the other hand, he plays less than 30MPG, so he's kind of a novelty pick, in a way.
With only one spot left, I already did the comparison between Howard and Marion and I feel Howard has simply been the better player this year, so that eliminates Marion.
Ultimately, even though Kaman is deserving, he's still proving unable to really carry his team anywhere, and that ultimately hurts him.
I think with Manu being a weird pick because of his minutes and with Howard just frankly being better over all this year, that Howard is more deserving between those two. So it ends up being between Howard and Amare. I'd say that they're frankly close to equal as players over all, and Phoenix has the slightly better record. But, ironically enough, I think this comes down to the same deciding factor that I had in the east--that Howard is one of 2 all-star caliber players on Dallas and Amare is 1 of 3 in Phoenix. So, reluctantly, I have to go with Howard here. So my final all-star lineup is....

Iverson\Paul\Baron
Kobe\Nash\Roy
Melo\Howard
Duncan\Boozer
Yao\Dirk

That's a good list and selection process except-
1. You don't have Amare or Camby there. How is the West going to counter the KG-Bron-Dwight frontline of the east? Therefore, there needs to be another center there to clog the middle.
2. Deron's chances of making the ASG are severely jeapordized now due to him being on an underachieving team and having an (in comparison) mediocre statistical season compared to BD and Paul. BD is the only player in the league to have a 22-5-8-2 average; Paul is the only player with 21-10-2. 18-3-8- isn't impresssive by any means compared to those lines, considering the fact that he has the best frontcourt in the league, yet his team is worse than the dubs and hornets, with the former having no post prescence whatsoever.

[Doctor MJ]

Wait a sec ... so Amare goes from 1st team All-NBA to not even making the All-Star game after having a better season?

If this happens I'll be simply stunned!

I don't expect him to miss the all-star game, but I think it should happen. It's not really that shocking though. Last year he made 1st team, and Marion didn't make 3rd despite the fact that Marion was the better player. Competition last year was simply ridiculously weak for center.

I think everyone expect Yao to be better than Amare when he's healthy, so the only guy he's falling behind is Camby. If you think Amare deserves it over Camby I'm fine with that. I however am very impressed with Camby, and I do think that when evaluating centers defense is particularly important.

[KJ7]

I don't expect him to miss the all-star game, but I think it should happen. It's not really that shocking though. Last year he made 1st team, and Marion didn't make 3rd despite the fact that Marion was the better player. Competition last year was simply ridiculously weak for center.

I think everyone expect Yao to be better than Amare when he's healthy, so the only guy he's falling behind is Camby. If you think Amare deserves it over Camby I'm fine with that. I however am very impressed with Camby, and I do think that when evaluating centers defense is particularly important.

I forget, isn't it C/F/F/G/G/W/W. W = Wildcard?


I think Amare/Camby could be put in for 1 of the wildcards if that's the case.

It's definitely a tough field and I expect someone to miss out who is an exceptional player. Camby sure is putting up some insane numbers outside of scoring.

[Doctor MJ]

-= original quote snipped =-



I forget, isn't it C/F/F/G/G/W/W. W = Wildcard?


I think Amare/Camby could be put in for 1 of the wildcards if that's the case.

It's definitely a tough field and I expect someone to miss out who is an exceptional player. Camby sure is putting up some insane numbers outside of scoring.

Yup, so Amare and Camby both could get in. I'm leaving Amare off because in spite of that, I don't think he's worthy. That might seem harsh, but if you concede (or at least seeing the reasoning in) Marion getting in before Amare, where does Marion stand among this group? 5 guys already in, a center spot he's not eligible for, and then Nash, Paul, Davis, and Nowitzki, who all get in easily before Marion. That leaves only two more spots, and I have a tough time giving them both to Suns.

[miller31time]

Hedo
Jamison
Jose Calderon
Josh Smith
Joe Johnson
Gerald Wallace
Richard Jefferson

I think I would actually ultimately go with Calderon and Josh Smith. My main reasoning for Smith is that statistically, he blows others out of the water, and his team while not great is in position for a playoff birth. He also kind of fills a need for this perimeter-happy lineup since he's kind of a PF.

Good post, overall. My only disagreement (go figure) is with Josh Smith over Antawn Jamison. You say Smith's numbers blow the others' out of the water, but I'd argue that Jamison has been putting up better numbers, and on a better team while having to carry more of the burden of his team's success on his back.

Per-40, Jamison (approximately) averages about 22pts/11rebs/2asts/1.5to's/1stl/.5blk. He has an eFG% of 49% and a TS% of 53%. Smith averages about 20pts/9rebs/4asts/4to's/2stls/4blks. He has an eFG% of 44% and a TS% of 51%.

So this is the breakdown: Jamison is a better scorer by 2pts per contest and shoots far better from the field (much more efficient). He is a better rebounder by about 2 rebounds per game. Passing-wise, they're about even. Smith averages 2 more assists, but commits more than twice the amount of turnovers. The difference is that Smith is a markedly better defender (having a DPOTY-worthy season) whereas Jamison is only about average (last season, he was awful, but has improved tenfold this year).

All in all, Jamison's advantage on offense and rebounding is probably evened out when defense is taken into the equation, making the deciding factors team success and team role (IMO) where the Wizards and Jamison have the advantage.

Just my opinion, though. Smith is having a great season too.

[Harry Heinous]

Anyone who thinks Caron, Jamison, or Calderon don't deserve to be all-stars, clearly hasn't watched many of their games this season.

[Harry Heinous]

Hedo is also very deserving this year

[KJ7]

Yup, so Amare and Camby both could get in. I'm leaving Amare off because in spite of that, I don't think he's worthy. That might seem harsh, but if you concede (or at least seeing the reasoning in) Marion getting in before Amare, where does Marion stand among this group? 5 guys already in, a center spot he's not eligible for, and then Nash, Paul, Davis, and Nowitzki, who all get in easily before Marion. That leaves only two more spots, and I have a tough time giving them both to Suns.

I think Amare has closed the gap on Marion quite a lot (if not overtaken him) for importance this season. Marion just doesn't seem to be getting out there and running the open court like he once did and we seem to be relying extremely heavily on Amare down the stretch for a lot of games (I know Marion sunk the gamewinner against Cavs but Amare drew 2 fouls and iced 4 FTs prior to that and against the Bucks he was pivotal in breaking away late in the game - just 2 examples). His weakside blocking is also something that constantly gets brushed aside and discounted as almost irrelevant.

I think I'm the only one not all that impressed with Nowitzki this season to be quite honest. If there should be a player fighting for his spot at the ASG I think it should be him. He would still prolly make it tho.

Anyway here are mine for the West:

C: Camby
F: Boozer
F: Dirk
G: Nash
G: CP3
W: Amare
W: Baron Davis

My only prob with this bench is that it really doesn't feature any swingmen but with Melo and Kobe starting that is less of a factor. So many good players still not there. I would prolly put them in this order:

Roy, Kaman, Marion, Howard, Deron, Manu

I'm sure I've still forgotten a bunch of players.

[Rafael122]

Hedo is also very deserving this year

Yeah, the problem is he picked the wrong year to breakout.

Wouldn't Bosh be voted in as a center anyway? I can't imagine Shaq being voted in as the backup Center, so if Bosh gets voted in at the 5...it would mean Jamison might have a shot at getting in.

[nate33]

In the East, Billups, Butler, Pierce and Bosh are locks. Let's stop talking about them. They're in.

That leaves the final 3 spots. I think with the versatility of the guys above, the final 3 positions don't really matter much. They could bring in 3 more forwards if they want to because Pierce and Butler can play guard and Bosh can play center.

The final three players will be among:

Calderon
Hamilton
Jefferson
Turkaglu
G.Wallace
J.Smith
Jamison
R.Wallace
lgauskas

Just for kicks, here are the pace-adjusted per-40 numbers for these players:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
calderon,jos 15.9  4.2 11.3  1.4  0.1  2.1 .564 .603 21.9
hamilton,ric 22.6  3.9  5.2  1.2  0.2  2.3 .541 .576 20.1
jefferson,ri 25.0  4.5  3.0  1.0  0.3  2.8 .480 .570 18.6
turkoglu,hed 19.6  6.2  4.4  1.2  0.4  2.9 .502 .556 16.7
wallace,gera 21.8  6.4  3.5  2.3  1.0  3.3 .496 .554 19.0
smith,josh   20.9  9.3  4.1  2.2  3.8  3.8 .446 .509 21.0
jamison,anta 21.9 10.7  1.7  0.9  0.5  1.4 .486 .528 20.1
wallace,rash 16.3  9.5  2.6  1.8  1.9  1.6 .484 .510 16.5
ilgauskas,zy 18.4 12.7  1.7  0.6  1.9  2.4 .485 .535 19.1

Looking at the numbers, I think you have to eliminate Jefferson, Turkaglu and R.Wallace. There's just no reason to take them when other guys with similar roles on winning teams are putting up drastically better numbers.

I also think Gerald Wallace needs to be eliminated because his numbers and impact aren't sufficiently better than his competition to outweigh his poor team record.

That leaves us with 5 players for the last 3 spots:

Jose Calderon
Richard Hamilton
Josh Smith
Antawn Jamison
Zydrunas Ilgauskas

I think there's a fair argument for any of them. I think Jamison is the closest to a lock here because of his team's record, his heavy minute load, and he'll get a little extra credit for being a classy veteran and team leader.

I figure one of Calderon and Hamilton go, but not both. And I think one of Josh Smith and Z go, but not both. If it were up to me, I'd take Hamilton and Z.

[pillwenney]

-= original quote snipped =-



That's a good list and selection process except-
1. You don't have Amare or Camby there. How is the West going to counter the KG-Bron-Dwight frontline of the east? Therefore, there needs to be another center there to clog the middle.
2. Deron's chances of making the ASG are severely jeapordized now due to him being on an underachieving team and having an (in comparison) mediocre statistical season compared to BD and Paul. BD is the only player in the league to have a 22-5-8-2 average; Paul is the only player with 21-10-2. 18-3-8- isn't impresssive by any means compared to those lines, considering the fact that he has the best frontcourt in the league, yet his team is worse than the dubs and hornets, with the former having no post prescence whatsoever.

1) I don't think the point of the process is to strategize to win the game, but to pick who deserves to go, within reason.
2) Deron's stats are actually 19-3-9 playing at what I would guess is a considerably slower pace than Baron, and on much better percentages. And passing-lane steals are kind of a meaningless stat.

[nate33]

-= original quote snipped =-



1) I don't think the point of the process is to strategize to win the game, but to pick who deserves to go, within reason.
2) Deron's stats are actually 19-3-9 playing at what I would guess is a considerably slower pace than Baron, and on much better percentages. And passing-lane steals are kind of a meaningless stat.

FWIW, here are Deron's and Davis's stats adjusted for minutes (per 40) and pace:

Code: Select all

Player        PTS  REB  AST  STL  BLK   TO eFG%  TS%  PER
davis,baron  21.7  4.8  7.9  2.4  0.5  2.7 .490 .537 22.3
williams,der 20.5  3.2 10.0  1.1  0.3  3.7 .552 .599 20.8

mitchweber has a point. Williams' numbers are pretty darn close to Davis, except he is a MUCH more efficient scorer.