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dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
And? Jokic is having a 4 year run better than anything guys not named Lebron, Kareem, or Jordan have done.
That's quite a statement presented like a fact. Quite a few more players have reasonable cases ahead of 2021-24 Jokic.
I suppose we could discuss Russell. Beyond that I can't imagine a case for the likes of Magic, Bird, or even Shaq.
ballzboyee wrote:One_and_Done wrote:CD_41 wrote:
100%.
What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.
Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.
This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.
98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)
So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.
Those are just popularity awards, and Duncan being Mr. Clean Cut light skinned guy was destined to be a media darling. Kobe completely destroyed Duncan head-to-head in the playoffs.
Duncan is just overrated on RealGM, especially for a big. People have Duncan in the top 5 when he had a season when he should have been still in or close to his prime, and he averaged 13ppg/9reb/2ast, and people think he would be Jokic or Embiid in today's era? As a supposed "superstar," Duncan literally averaged 13ppg for an entire season on a championship-level roster, and people have him in top five all-time?
To be honest, I don't even think Duncan would have the versatility to play on the level of a guy like Karl-Anthony Towns. Duncan was very slow, methodical player on offense and a system guy under Popovich. Where is the idea coming from that he's going able to run and space the floor or attack every level of defense like Embiid with his shooting touch or be quick enough to front the basket like a lot of bigs today with their offensive versatility off the dribble? Or consistently hit a 3-point shot like Jokic or Towns? If you look at guy Towns and Jokic, they shoot like 85% from the line. Duncan had seasons where he was not much better than Shaq from the FT line. He once shot below 60% one season from the line. He was not a great shooter for much his career.
Based upon what would make even him a top three big in today's league, much less a top three player overall? People just have a huge recency bias because of the Spurs win over Lebron's Heat team in the Finals in 2014, and now they ridiculously overrate Duncan. Of course, Lebron wouild have to lose to another top five player and not a guy who got that carried by three other hall of famers and an all-time great coach.
Just looking at his skill sets that he showed while playing, if Duncan had to play like a modern big he would be roughly equivalent or slightly better than Brook Lopez. That's just being honest. The stats that we saw from Duncan when the Spurs went to more of spread 4-out of 1-in system are pretty much what he would have in today's NBA. He would be roughly somewhere between a 15-20ppg scorer and give you maybe 8 to 10 rebounds per game. His assist numbers would go up obviously. His impact defensively would we greatly watered down due to the fact he would no longer be a paint protector because he would pulled out to guard an opposing big on the perimeter. On offense he would be setting high ball screens and rolling off pics shooting 3's (assuming he would be an efficient shooter) or rolling to the basket, which was very similar to what the Spurs were doing when they won their last championship. That year Duncan averaged 15ppg/9reb/3ast.
This idea that Duncan's going to come into this era with these spread systems that are guard oriented and score 30ppg and be top 3 player is just not supported by any facts. There is only one true big in top 20 in scoring and that's Jokic. Giannis and Davis do not count because they both possess guard skill-sets with the ability to put the ball on the floor and dribble-drive to the basket from multiple levels (full court bringing the ball up, iso in half court, and from the post). Duncan was fairly good off the dribble and attacking the basket in a more limited way out of the post, but is Duncan going to be even a top 20 scorer in the league today? No, he's probably not. You can look at guy like Towns who has shot 40% from three for his career, much better free throw shooter than Duncan (Towns has even had a season where he almost shot 90% from the line), and a versatile and all-around skilled offensive player, and Towns is barely in the top 30 in scoring off 16 fga. Sixteen shots per game was roughly Duncan's career volume.
So, no, Duncan definitely not a top three player in this league. He's a good version Brook Lopez. Best case scenario that he would be as Towns on offense (unlikely), and he would still find some way to impact the game defensively like he did when he played. He's not going to be Embiid, Jokic, or even Giannis. All three of those guys are better offensively than Duncan by a pretty big margin.
70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:That's quite a statement presented like a fact. Quite a few more players have reasonable cases ahead of 2021-24 Jokic.
I suppose we could discuss Russell. Beyond that I can't imagine a case for the likes of Magic, Bird, or even Shaq.
1951-54 Mikan
1962-65 Russell
1965-68 Wilt
1992-95 Hakeem
1999-02 Shaq
2001-04 Duncan
Just among centers.
70sFan wrote:ballzboyee wrote:One_and_Done wrote:This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.
98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)
So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.
Those are just popularity awards, and Duncan being Mr. Clean Cut light skinned guy was destined to be a media darling. Kobe completely destroyed Duncan head-to-head in the playoffs.
Duncan is just overrated on RealGM, especially for a big. People have Duncan in the top 5 when he had a season when he should have been still in or close to his prime, and he averaged 13ppg/9reb/2ast, and people think he would be Jokic or Embiid in today's era? As a supposed "superstar," Duncan literally averaged 13ppg for an entire season on a championship-level roster, and people have him in top five all-time?
To be honest, I don't even think Duncan would have the versatility to play on the level of a guy like Karl-Anthony Towns. Duncan was very slow, methodical player on offense and a system guy under Popovich. Where is the idea coming from that he's going able to run and space the floor or attack every level of defense like Embiid with his shooting touch or be quick enough to front the basket like a lot of bigs today with their offensive versatility off the dribble? Or consistently hit a 3-point shot like Jokic or Towns? If you look at guy Towns and Jokic, they shoot like 85% from the line. Duncan had seasons where he was not much better than Shaq from the FT line. He once shot below 60% one season from the line. He was not a great shooter for much his career.
Based upon what would make even him a top three big in today's league, much less a top three player overall? People just have a huge recency bias because of the Spurs win over Lebron's Heat team in the Finals in 2014, and now they ridiculously overrate Duncan. Of course, Lebron wouild have to lose to another top five player and not a guy who got that carried by three other hall of famers and an all-time great coach.
Just looking at his skill sets that he showed while playing, if Duncan had to play like a modern big he would be roughly equivalent or slightly better than Brook Lopez. That's just being honest. The stats that we saw from Duncan when the Spurs went to more of spread 4-out of 1-in system are pretty much what he would have in today's NBA. He would be roughly somewhere between a 15-20ppg scorer and give you maybe 8 to 10 rebounds per game. His assist numbers would go up obviously. His impact defensively would we greatly watered down due to the fact he would no longer be a paint protector because he would pulled out to guard an opposing big on the perimeter. On offense he would be setting high ball screens and rolling off pics shooting 3's (assuming he would be an efficient shooter) or rolling to the basket, which was very similar to what the Spurs were doing when they won their last championship. That year Duncan averaged 15ppg/9reb/3ast.
This idea that Duncan's going to come into this era with these spread systems that are guard oriented and score 30ppg and be top 3 player is just not supported by any facts. There is only one true big in top 20 in scoring and that's Jokic. Giannis and Davis do not count because they both possess guard skill-sets with the ability to put the ball on the floor and dribble-drive to the basket from multiple levels (full court bringing the ball up, iso in half court, and from the post). Duncan was fairly good off the dribble and attacking the basket in a more limited way out of the post, but is Duncan going to be even a top 20 scorer in the league today? No, he's probably not. You can look at guy like Towns who has shot 40% from three for his career, much better free throw shooter than Duncan (Towns has even had a season where he almost shot 90% from the line), and a versatile and all-around skilled offensive player, and Towns is barely in the top 30 in scoring off 16 fga. Sixteen shots per game was roughly Duncan's career volume.
So, no, Duncan definitely not a top three player in this league. He's a good version Brook Lopez. Best case scenario that he would be as Towns on offense (unlikely), and he would still find some way to impact the game defensively like he did when he played. He's not going to be Embiid, Jokic, or even Giannis. All three of those guys are better offensively than Duncan by a pretty big margin.
That's one of the most absurd Duncan posts I have seen him on many levels.
dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
I suppose we could discuss Russell. Beyond that I can't imagine a case for the likes of Magic, Bird, or even Shaq.
1951-54 Mikan
1962-65 Russell
1965-68 Wilt
1992-95 Hakeem
1999-02 Shaq
2001-04 Duncan
Just among centers.
We clearly vastly disagree on how good Jokic has been the last 4 years. As there's no way on earth I'm putting Duncan's 4 year run against MJ's best, let alone Hakeem or Wilt. And I'm considering Jokic > Jordan for best 4 year run. Russell and Mikan, I guess we can consider that. The rest of these are just not in the realm.
HMFFL wrote:Tim Duncan was on the all defensive team 15 tines and on the first team 8 times. Jokic has never had the honor.KembaWalker wrote:Probably second behind Jokic
Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM mobile app
70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:1951-54 Mikan
1962-65 Russell
1965-68 Wilt
1992-95 Hakeem
1999-02 Shaq
2001-04 Duncan
Just among centers.
We clearly vastly disagree on how good Jokic has been the last 4 years. As there's no way on earth I'm putting Duncan's 4 year run against MJ's best, let alone Hakeem or Wilt. And I'm considering Jokic > Jordan for best 4 year run. Russell and Mikan, I guess we can consider that. The rest of these are just not in the realm.
I don't think I underrate Jokic, I just think the best players ever are all reasonably close in their value and I don't see any reason to put one or two players much ahead of the rest.
I can see Jokic ending up higher than all of the players I mentioned, but it's far from given and I don't see how you can say that Duncan or Hakeem are not even in the realm of competing with Jokic. It just seems that you underestimate defensive value these guys have.
BigGargamel wrote:CobraCommander wrote:blackcosmos wrote:Number 1
If 2003 TD play in today’s game. He is still the best player in the league.
Probably the best player on earth and pushing the hell
Out of jokic cause he was better defensively -
Damn and if Jokic, Duncan, Kawhi and SGA the faces of one league we would officially have no drama, no bs and the basketball league that KD and Kyrie always whining about - a league where basketball rules and no one talked about anything but on the court basketball- no politics no crazy club crap no fights no conditioning issues - just ball-
No commercials either lol
All four of those guys you mentioned have been in commercials though.
Jabroni Lames wrote:BigGargamel wrote:CobraCommander wrote:Probably the best player on earth and pushing the hell
Out of jokic cause he was better defensively -
Damn and if Jokic, Duncan, Kawhi and SGA the faces of one league we would officially have no drama, no bs and the basketball league that KD and Kyrie always whining about - a league where basketball rules and no one talked about anything but on the court basketball- no politics no crazy club crap no fights no conditioning issues - just ball-
No commercials either lol
All four of those guys you mentioned have been in commercials though.
In fact, Duncan & Kawhi have been in commercials.... together. And it's about as bad as you would expect. lol.
dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
We clearly vastly disagree on how good Jokic has been the last 4 years. As there's no way on earth I'm putting Duncan's 4 year run against MJ's best, let alone Hakeem or Wilt. And I'm considering Jokic > Jordan for best 4 year run. Russell and Mikan, I guess we can consider that. The rest of these are just not in the realm.
I don't think I underrate Jokic, I just think the best players ever are all reasonably close in their value and I don't see any reason to put one or two players much ahead of the rest.
I can see Jokic ending up higher than all of the players I mentioned, but it's far from given and I don't see how you can say that Duncan or Hakeem are not even in the realm of competing with Jokic. It just seems that you underestimate defensive value these guys have.
I mean, I don't think those two guys were the clear best player in the league for 4 straight years. And of course I value their defense, without their defense we wouldn't be talking about them as top 10 guys.
Jokic has been the best player for 4 straight years with Giannis, a 2x MVP and DPOY still in the league and in his prime. Luka hasn't made any serious move while appearing to be a generational player. Embiid might have had a case this year while putting up stats that may have just broken many of our advanced stats. The league's top end talent is as strong as it has even been, and Jokic is just sitting on top as the king. I'll have to go back and evaluate in 10 years to be confident, but right now I struggle to not rank this 4 year run as the best ever. I really feel Jokic has pushed the game of basketball forward in a way we haven't seen since Magic and Bird came into the league.
ballzboyee wrote:One_and_Done wrote:CD_41 wrote:
100%.
What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.
Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.
This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.
98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)
So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.
Those are just popularity awards, and Duncan being Mr. Clean Cut light skinned guy was destined to be a media darling. Kobe completely destroyed Duncan head-to-head in the playoffs.
Duncan is just overrated on RealGM, especially for a big. People have Duncan in the top 5 when he had a season when he should have been still in or close to his prime, and he averaged 13ppg/9reb/2ast, and people think he would be Jokic or Embiid in today's era? As a supposed "superstar," Duncan literally averaged 13ppg for an entire season on a championship-level roster, and people have him in top five all-time?
To be honest, I don't even think Duncan would have the versatility to play on the level of a guy like Karl-Anthony Towns. Duncan was very slow, methodical player on offense and a system guy under Popovich. Where is the idea coming from that he's going able to run and space the floor or attack every level of defense like Embiid with his shooting touch or be quick enough to front the basket like a lot of bigs today with their offensive versatility off the dribble? Or consistently hit a 3-point shot like Jokic or Towns? If you look at guy Towns and Jokic, they shoot like 85% from the line. Duncan had seasons where he was not much better than Shaq from the FT line. He once shot below 60% one season from the line. He was not a great shooter for much his career.
Based upon what would make even him a top three big in today's league, much less a top three player overall? People just have a huge recency bias because of the Spurs win over Lebron's Heat team in the Finals in 2014, and now they ridiculously overrate Duncan. Of course, Lebron wouild have to lose to another top five player and not a guy who got that carried by three other hall of famers and an all-time great coach.
Just looking at his skill sets that he showed while playing, if Duncan had to play like a modern big he would be roughly equivalent or slightly better than Brook Lopez. That's just being honest. The stats that we saw from Duncan when the Spurs went to more of spread 4-out of 1-in system are pretty much what he would have in today's NBA. He would be roughly somewhere between a 15-20ppg scorer and give you maybe 8 to 10 rebounds per game. His assist numbers would go up obviously. His impact defensively would we greatly watered down due to the fact he would no longer be a paint protector because he would pulled out to guard an opposing big on the perimeter. On offense he would be setting high ball screens and rolling off pics shooting 3's (assuming he would be an efficient shooter) or rolling to the basket, which was very similar to what the Spurs were doing when they won their last championship. That year Duncan averaged 15ppg/9reb/3ast.
This idea that Duncan's going to come into this era with these spread systems that are guard oriented and score 30ppg and be top 3 player is just not supported by any facts. There is only one true big in top 20 in scoring and that's Jokic. Giannis and Davis do not count because they both possess guard skill-sets with the ability to put the ball on the floor and dribble-drive to the basket from multiple levels (full court bringing the ball up, iso in half court, and from the post). Duncan was fairly good off the dribble and attacking the basket in a more limited way out of the post, but is Duncan going to be even a top 20 scorer in the league today? No, he's probably not. You can look at guy like Towns who has shot 40% from three for his career, much better free throw shooter than Duncan (Towns has even had a season where he almost shot 90% from the line), and a versatile and all-around skilled offensive player, and Towns is barely in the top 30 in scoring off 16 fga. Sixteen shots per game was roughly Duncan's career volume.
So, no, Duncan definitely not a top three player in this league. He's a good version Brook Lopez. Best case scenario that he would be as Towns on offense (unlikely), and he would still find some way to impact the game defensively like he did when he played. He's not going to be Embiid, Jokic, or even Giannis. All three of those guys are better offensively than Duncan by a pretty big margin.
70sFan wrote:Spoiler:
That's one of the most absurd Duncan posts I have seen him on many levels.
70sFan wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:I don't think I underrate Jokic, I just think the best players ever are all reasonably close in their value and I don't see any reason to put one or two players much ahead of the rest.
I can see Jokic ending up higher than all of the players I mentioned, but it's far from given and I don't see how you can say that Duncan or Hakeem are not even in the realm of competing with Jokic. It just seems that you underestimate defensive value these guys have.
I mean, I don't think those two guys were the clear best player in the league for 4 straight years. And of course I value their defense, without their defense we wouldn't be talking about them as top 10 guys.
Jokic has been the best player for 4 straight years with Giannis, a 2x MVP and DPOY still in the league and in his prime. Luka hasn't made any serious move while appearing to be a generational player. Embiid might have had a case this year while putting up stats that may have just broken many of our advanced stats. The league's top end talent is as strong as it has even been, and Jokic is just sitting on top as the king. I'll have to go back and evaluate in 10 years to be confident, but right now I struggle to not rank this 4 year run as the best ever. I really feel Jokic has pushed the game of basketball forward in a way we haven't seen since Magic and Bird came into the league.
I don't think it's clear that Jokic has been the best player in the league 4 straight years. He certainly wasn't clearly the best in 2021. I don't know, it seems that you exaggerate a little bit his overall performance during that time.
BigGargamel wrote:With how sweet of a mid range game Duncan had, there is absolutely no reason that would not have extended to the three point line. Factor in his passing and defense, he would be amazing in any era.
Domejandro wrote:BigGargamel wrote:With how sweet of a mid range game Duncan had, there is absolutely no reason that would not have extended to the three point line. Factor in his passing and defense, he would be amazing in any era.
Tim Duncan was a barely above league average midrange shooter on low volume (far below league average on long twos). I don't see any indicator that would suggest that he would have been a particularly effective three-point shooter in any era.
Rust_Cohle wrote:dj20001 wrote:Rust_Cohle wrote:
I’ve been a die hard Spurs fan since 1995 and Robinson is the biggest reason. He was still very good defensively but lost a lot of explosiveness after being so injured the year they drafted TD.
Robinson deserves a lot of credit for being the main man for so long for SA and yet after one practice with TD he told Pop Tim needs to be the #1 option. As good as SA were in ‘95 I wish Spurs had gotten Robinson more help. I love Elliott but him being their second best player was never going to result in a title.
Was thrilled Robinson was able to go out with a ring in 2003.
For TD, I wonder when the next time is we will see a second year player win Finals MVP. I know Duncan was drafted into a situation better than most rookies but I wouldn’t even call the ‘99 team stacked per say. Especially compared to almost any other title winning team of the last 30 years. I believe Magic was the last player to win a finals mvp in just his second year in the league.
The two players you listed, were probably drafted into the best situations for players that everyone knew would be slam dunk contributors in the league.
Duncan would have struggled a bit more versus Shaq, on his own for example. As you mentioned, Robinson took some of the brunt in those matchups leaving Duncan to feast on undersized Laker 4s like Robert Horry and roam a bit on defense. Magic had Kareem of course.
Tim Duncan though, ready made for the league from day one.
Very true, Duncan did very well against Shaq in 2003, but he was far more experienced by then. Robinson in 99 especially was even better against Shaq defensively. Imagine if Duncan was drafted into a team with an established Carmelo Anthony or something. Ask Jeremy Lin how that would go haha ego wise
dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:ballzboyee wrote:
Those are just popularity awards, and Duncan being Mr. Clean Cut light skinned guy was destined to be a media darling. Kobe completely destroyed Duncan head-to-head in the playoffs.
Duncan is just overrated on RealGM, especially for a big. People have Duncan in the top 5 when he had a season when he should have been still in or close to his prime, and he averaged 13ppg/9reb/2ast, and people think he would be Jokic or Embiid in today's era? As a supposed "superstar," Duncan literally averaged 13ppg for an entire season on a championship-level roster, and people have him in top five all-time?
To be honest, I don't even think Duncan would have the versatility to play on the level of a guy like Karl-Anthony Towns. Duncan was very slow, methodical player on offense and a system guy under Popovich. Where is the idea coming from that he's going able to run and space the floor or attack every level of defense like Embiid with his shooting touch or be quick enough to front the basket like a lot of bigs today with their offensive versatility off the dribble? Or consistently hit a 3-point shot like Jokic or Towns? If you look at guy Towns and Jokic, they shoot like 85% from the line. Duncan had seasons where he was not much better than Shaq from the FT line. He once shot below 60% one season from the line. He was not a great shooter for much his career.
Based upon what would make even him a top three big in today's league, much less a top three player overall? People just have a huge recency bias because of the Spurs win over Lebron's Heat team in the Finals in 2014, and now they ridiculously overrate Duncan. Of course, Lebron wouild have to lose to another top five player and not a guy who got that carried by three other hall of famers and an all-time great coach.
Just looking at his skill sets that he showed while playing, if Duncan had to play like a modern big he would be roughly equivalent or slightly better than Brook Lopez. That's just being honest. The stats that we saw from Duncan when the Spurs went to more of spread 4-out of 1-in system are pretty much what he would have in today's NBA. He would be roughly somewhere between a 15-20ppg scorer and give you maybe 8 to 10 rebounds per game. His assist numbers would go up obviously. His impact defensively would we greatly watered down due to the fact he would no longer be a paint protector because he would pulled out to guard an opposing big on the perimeter. On offense he would be setting high ball screens and rolling off pics shooting 3's (assuming he would be an efficient shooter) or rolling to the basket, which was very similar to what the Spurs were doing when they won their last championship. That year Duncan averaged 15ppg/9reb/3ast.
This idea that Duncan's going to come into this era with these spread systems that are guard oriented and score 30ppg and be top 3 player is just not supported by any facts. There is only one true big in top 20 in scoring and that's Jokic. Giannis and Davis do not count because they both possess guard skill-sets with the ability to put the ball on the floor and dribble-drive to the basket from multiple levels (full court bringing the ball up, iso in half court, and from the post). Duncan was fairly good off the dribble and attacking the basket in a more limited way out of the post, but is Duncan going to be even a top 20 scorer in the league today? No, he's probably not. You can look at guy like Towns who has shot 40% from three for his career, much better free throw shooter than Duncan (Towns has even had a season where he almost shot 90% from the line), and a versatile and all-around skilled offensive player, and Towns is barely in the top 30 in scoring off 16 fga. Sixteen shots per game was roughly Duncan's career volume.
So, no, Duncan definitely not a top three player in this league. He's a good version Brook Lopez. Best case scenario that he would be as Towns on offense (unlikely), and he would still find some way to impact the game defensively like he did when he played. He's not going to be Embiid, Jokic, or even Giannis. All three of those guys are better offensively than Duncan by a pretty big margin.
That's one of the most absurd Duncan posts I have seen him on many levels.
This guy just said at 38 a player should be in or near their prime...
These Tim Duncan fans are crazy. Where are they getting these ideas of Timmy's supposed greatness? dhsilv2 wrote:dj20001 wrote:One_and_Done wrote:This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.
98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)
So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.
98 and 99 are interesting to list bc Duncan came into the league after a full career in college - he was ready to go. Kobe was what? 20 at the time, on a stacked roster? Why would he be ranked in the MVP convo coming off of the bench?
Pretty sure forwards and centers typically win the award over guards and wings in part bc of counting stats. I know for a fact more post players have won MVP historically as well. Mainly points, shooting percentage and rebounds. Then you have the sharing with Shaq aspect. Had a positive impact on winning, probably a negative impact on Kobe statistically.
Who were the wing type players ranked ahead of Kobe during the seasons you listed? Where did Duncan and Kobe rank in MVP voting post 2007? Why stop before Kobe won the award? Since you’re attributing the end of Duncan’s career to having better teammates and taking a backseat, isn’t that exactly what Kobe was doing to start his career?
The argument for Kobe has always been longevity. He was involved in the MVP convo for a longer stretch than Duncan, which is why you cherry picked years and tried to create an iron clad explanation using “teammates”.
This is bad work man.
How do you define in the MVP talks? Duncan first got votes in 98 and last got votes in 2015. Kobe first got votes in 2000 and last got them in 2013.
ballzboyee wrote:One_and_Done wrote:CD_41 wrote:
100%.
What puts Duncan so high on the all-time-rankings is that he was constantly a top-5 player every year. As someone who essentially watched his entire career, I am pretty sure that he almost never was considered to be the best player in any year he played.
Top-5 most of the time, but never No. 1. Kobe, Shaq, LeBron stole No. 1 a lot of the times.
I get why in hindsight a lot of people want to put Duncan at No 1. if he played today. I mean, how can a Borderline Top-7 player of all time not be No 1. now? Well, he just never had these absurd peaks. Was always great, but never the best in any season.
This is completely ahistorical. Duncan was praised as the best player in the whole league as early as his 2nd year. He won 2 MVPs, and when you look at his prime from 98 to 07 he was consistently rated higher than Kobe over that period. Your confusing water cooler talking head chatter with what actually happened.
98- 5th (Kobe didn't even place)
99- 3rd (Kobe didn't even place)
00 - 5th (Kobe 12th)
01- 2nd (Kobe 9th)
02- 1st (Kobe 5th)
03- 1st (Kobe 3rd)
04- 2nd (Kobe 5th)
05- 4th (Kobe didn't even place)
06- 8th (Kobe 4th)
07- 4th (Kobe 3rd)
So you can see Duncan was generally kicking Kobe's ass in the minds of MVP voters over their primes, and Kobe's only 2 finishes over Duncan come right at the tail end of his prime when Duncan was chilling a little mord in the regular season and letting Manu & Parker carry more of the load. MVP voting isn't everything, but it conveys popular sentiment outside LA nicely here.
Those are just popularity awards, and Duncan being Mr. Clean Cut light skinned guy was destined to be a media darling. Kobe completely destroyed Duncan head-to-head in the playoffs.
Duncan is just overrated on RealGM, especially for a big. People have Duncan in the top 5 when he had a season when he should have been still in or close to his prime, and he averaged 13ppg/9reb/2ast, and people think he would be Jokic or Embiid in today's era? As a supposed "superstar," Duncan literally averaged 13ppg for an entire season on a championship-level roster, and people have him in top five all-time?
To be honest, I don't even think Duncan would have the versatility to play on the level of a guy like Karl-Anthony Towns. Duncan was very slow, methodical player on offense and a system guy under Popovich. Where is the idea coming from that he's going able to run and space the floor or attack every level of defense like Embiid with his shooting touch or be quick enough to front the basket like a lot of bigs today with their offensive versatility off the dribble? Or consistently hit a 3-point shot like Jokic or Towns? If you look at guy Towns and Jokic, they shoot like 85% from the line. Duncan had seasons where he was not much better than Shaq from the FT line. He once shot below 60% one season from the line. He was not a great shooter for much his career.
Based upon what would make even him a top three big in today's league, much less a top three player overall? People just have a huge recency bias because of the Spurs win over Lebron's Heat team in the Finals in 2014, and now they ridiculously overrate Duncan. Of course, Lebron wouild have to lose to another top five player and not a guy who got that carried by three other hall of famers and an all-time great coach.
Just looking at his skill sets that he showed while playing, if Duncan had to play like a modern big he would be roughly equivalent or slightly better than Brook Lopez. That's just being honest. The stats that we saw from Duncan when the Spurs went to more of spread 4-out of 1-in system are pretty much what he would have in today's NBA. He would be roughly somewhere between a 15-20ppg scorer and give you maybe 8 to 10 rebounds per game. His assist numbers would go up obviously. His impact defensively would we greatly watered down due to the fact he would no longer be a paint protector because he would pulled out to guard an opposing big on the perimeter. On offense he would be setting high ball screens and rolling off pics shooting 3's (assuming he would be an efficient shooter) or rolling to the basket, which was very similar to what the Spurs were doing when they won their last championship. That year Duncan averaged 15ppg/9reb/3ast.
This idea that Duncan's going to come into this era with these spread systems that are guard oriented and score 30ppg and be top 3 player is just not supported by any facts. There is only one true big in top 20 in scoring and that's Jokic. Giannis and Davis do not count because they both possess guard skill-sets with the ability to put the ball on the floor and dribble-drive to the basket from multiple levels (full court bringing the ball up, iso in half court, and from the post). Duncan was fairly good off the dribble and attacking the basket in a more limited way out of the post, but is Duncan going to be even a top 20 scorer in the league today? No, he's probably not. You can look at guy like Towns who has shot 40% from three for his career, much better free throw shooter than Duncan (Towns has even had a season where he almost shot 90% from the line), and a versatile and all-around skilled offensive player, and Towns is barely in the top 30 in scoring off 16 fga. Sixteen shots per game was roughly Duncan's career volume.
So, no, Duncan definitely not a top three player in this league. He's a good version Brook Lopez. Best case scenario that he would be as Towns on offense (unlikely), and he would still find some way to impact the game defensively like he did when he played. He's not going to be Embiid, Jokic, or even Giannis. All three of those guys are better offensively than Duncan by a pretty big margin.
Good version of Brook Lopez? LMAOballzboyee wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:70sFan wrote:That's one of the most absurd Duncan posts I have seen him on many levels.
This guy just said at 38 a player should be in or near their prime...
What in the world are you talking about? Duncan was 33-34 when he scored 13ppg. At worst that is the the back-end of a prime, and for a big can still be fully prime productive years. Jordan at 35 led the league in scoring at 28ppg and won MVP. Lebron James at 33-34 averaged 28ppg. Kareem around the same aged average 26ppg. People on here are saying Tim Duncan is top 5 all-time and top 3 in any era, but dude literally averaged 13ppg at the same age other top 5 all-time greats were leading the league in scoring and putting up monster numbers.
It's amazing to me that Duncan gets so many passes for things that if any other player had their resume, then they would absolutely get killed on the all-time lists. For example, if Kobe Bryant played with four other Hall of Fame players near or in their primes for most of his career and made the final multiple times, did not lead his team in scoring, and did not win Finals MVP multiple times, or really wasn't even the consensus best player on his team, nobody would have Kobe Bryant anywhere near the top 10 all-time, much less a top 5 player. Imagine if Lebron didn't win finals MVP a couple of times out of his four championships. Yet for some inexplicable reason Tim Duncan gets a pass on all of it. Now we are supposed to believe he would be a "top 3" player in any era. Repeat that to yourself, and think about what that actually means. That's like saying he's a top 3 player all-time.
Not only that, other than Lebron James, I cannot think of any player in the history of basketball whose HoF teammates get as little credit for his team's championships as Duncan. For example, from 1998 to 2000 David Robinson put up per 100 28ppg/16reb/4blk compared to Duncan's 31ppg/16/3blk. Duncan fans act David Robinson was completely irrelevant to the 1998 championship. This is maybe a top 20 player all-time. Tony Parker wins Finals MVP and Manu might be the best player team overall, and Duncan gets all the credit in 2007. In 2014, Duncan was the third or fourth best player on the team, but somehow Duncan gets all of the credit for that championship even though he was clearly coattail riding a championship roster with an all-time great system coach. No other player is getting into the top 5 all-time based upon Duncan history. If Kobe Bryant, for example, scored 13ppg on a championship-level roster, then I doubt he is even ranked consensus a top 15 player. But for some reason, Tim Duncan is a top five player and top three player in any era. Gimme a break.
