"If Westbrook don't be careful, he will find himself out of the league come next year"

[VanWest82]

Incredible that the goalposts will one day move to blaming LeBron for getting Westbrook even though Rob Pelinka and Frank Vogel exist.

You know what else exists? A 4000 word opus by Shams detailing exactly how Russ came to Lakers. In short, yes it was Lebron and AD who made that happen. Russ obviously pushed hard for it too but that deal doesn't get done without Bron and AD. They were the ones running the "war room" meetings, basically interviewing guys for the job.

As for Russ's time on the Lakers...he posted the two highest FG% of his career in Houston and then Clippers last year. He was instrumental in Washington's push to make the playoffs. He was terrible on the Lakers, but less terrible when Lebron was off the court. I think it's fair to say the fit was bad just like it is with this year's Clippers team having so many guys who need the ball.

post the stats please and he was awful with Houston and with the wizards for the first half of the season

He had knee surgeries both of those off seasons. Even still, he posted eFG%s of 49.3% in Houston and 53.8% with Clippers last year after being traded, the two best marks of his career. He averaged 11.7 assists with Washington, the best mark of his career.

Russ w Lebron (21/22 season per 100): 21.0 pts on 45.7 eFG%, 9.3 assists
Russ w/out Bron (21/22 season per 100): 30.9 pts on 49.2 eFG%, 10.4 assists

Lakers found a way to make it work with both on the court because Lebron is an ATG, but clearly the fit with Russ wasn't good.

[Homer38]

These are mostly Bron stans who won't forgive Westbrook until they find another scapegoat that they're mad at. They did it with Ingram, Kuzma, Kyrie, Vogel, Dwight and etc.

If they lose again this year, they'll move on to DLo Full-time along with Ham. Maybe Vincent and Wood.

Rinse and repeat until he retires.

nice try but this is not true.I mean, it wasn't an LBJ fan who started this thread...

Looking at the participants. It's the usual stanbase who were salty after Russell's series again PHX. Most of you gusya re still looking for closure and will reappear when he has a bad game. You guys tried it with Ingram, Monk, Clarkson and several others but you've moved on. Russ is an easy target but eventually most of you will move on to someone who's currently on the roster.

Why they were salty after losing the first round matchup in 5 games

It was a good effort by him but that was all.The Lakers were much better after Westbrook was gone last year

[BlazersBroncos]

Moving Russ to accommodate Harden is funny to me.

LAC was better when they had Russ and had not moved for Harden (Early this year at least - and its not debatable). Now to accommodate their ill advised addition they are dumping the guy that they were playing well with to try and build around the new guy that has turned them into a dumpster fire.

[NO-KG-AI]

I love how the more you put good players on Russell's teams, the more his play suffers because of it, but that's somehow an indictment on everyone else, and not on him.

[Homer38]

You know what else exists? A 4000 word opus by Shams detailing exactly how Russ came to Lakers. In short, yes it was Lebron and AD who made that happen. Russ obviously pushed hard for it too but that deal doesn't get done without Bron and AD. They were the ones running the "war room" meetings, basically interviewing guys for the job.

As for Russ's time on the Lakers...he posted the two highest FG% of his career in Houston and then Clippers last year. He was instrumental in Washington's push to make the playoffs. He was terrible on the Lakers, but less terrible when Lebron was off the court. I think it's fair to say the fit was bad just like it is with this year's Clippers team having so many guys who need the ball.

post the stats please and he was awful with Houston and with the wizards for the first half of the season

He had knee surgeries both of those off seasons. Even still, he posted eFG%s of 49.3% in Houston and 53.8% with Clippers last year after being traded, the two best marks of his career. He averaged 11.7 assists with Washington, the best mark of his career.

Russ w Lebron (21/22 season per 100): 21.0 pts on 45.7 eFG%, 9.3 assists
Russ w/out Bron (21/22 season per 100): 30.9 pts on 49.2 eFG%, 10.4 assists

His EFG was below league average in each occasion outside of 2020 but even in 2020 the rockets were better with him on the bench.Number was better for him but the lakers were not better with Westbrook on the court....It was even worst in the 2023 season when he was with the lakers

Westbrook is clearly in decline since the 2018 season....I mean he was a great FT shooter before that but since 2019 he is a poor free throw shooter...that's just one of the examples of his decline

[VanWest82]

post the stats please and he was awful with Houston and with the wizards for the first half of the season

He had knee surgeries both of those off seasons. Even still, he posted eFG%s of 49.3% in Houston and 53.8% with Clippers last year after being traded, the two best marks of his career. He averaged 11.7 assists with Washington, the best mark of his career.

Russ w Lebron (21/22 season per 100): 21.0 pts on 45.7 eFG%, 9.3 assists
Russ w/out Bron (21/22 season per 100): 30.9 pts on 49.2 eFG%, 10.4 assists

His EFG was below league average in each occasion outside of 2020 but even in 2020 the rockets were better with him on the bench.Number was better for him but the lakers were not better with Westbrook on the court....It was even worst in the 2023 season when he was with the lakers

Westbrook is clearly in decline since the 2018 season....I mean he was a great FT shooter before that but since 2019 he is a poor free throw shooter...that's just one of the examples of his decline

Yes, Russ is in decline, especially now that he's 35. That's not the point. He was clearly better before and after Lakers, and better without Lebron on the court while with Lakers.

[Homer38]

He had knee surgeries both of those off seasons. Even still, he posted eFG%s of 49.3% in Houston and 53.8% with Clippers last year after being traded, the two best marks of his career. He averaged 11.7 assists with Washington, the best mark of his career.

Russ w Lebron (21/22 season per 100): 21.0 pts on 45.7 eFG%, 9.3 assists
Russ w/out Bron (21/22 season per 100): 30.9 pts on 49.2 eFG%, 10.4 assists

His EFG was below league average in each occasion outside of 2020 but even in 2020 the rockets were better with him on the bench.Number was better for him but the lakers were not better with Westbrook on the court....It was even worst in the 2023 season when he was with the lakers

Westbrook is clearly in decline since the 2018 season....I mean he was a great FT shooter before that but since 2019 he is a poor free throw shooter...that's just one of the examples of his decline

Yes, Russ is in decline, especially now that he's 35. That's not the point. He was clearly better before and after Lakers, and better without Lebron on the court while with Lakers.

Last year, Westbrook and LBJ were +6.8 points per 100 possessions in 730 minutes when they were on the court together....The problem, Westbrook was bad with every other combination but Ham (or Vogel the year before) were forced to play him at the end of almost every game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/lineups/2023

[VanWest82]

His EFG was below league average in each occasion outside of 2020 but even in 2020 the rockets were better with him on the bench.Number was better for him but the lakers were not better with Westbrook on the court....It was even worst in the 2023 season when he was with the lakers

Westbrook is clearly in decline since the 2018 season....I mean he was a great FT shooter before that but since 2019 he is a poor free throw shooter...that's just one of the examples of his decline

Yes, Russ is in decline, especially now that he's 35. That's not the point. He was clearly better before and after Lakers, and better without Lebron on the court while with Lakers.

Last year, Westbrook and LBJ were +6.8 points per 100 possessions in 730 minutes when they were on the court together....The problem, Westbrook was bad with every other combination but Ham (or Vogel the year before) were forced to play him at the end of almost every game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/lineups/2023

Again, not the point. Lakers were good with Lebron on the court because Lebron is a great player. Lakers were not good with Lebron off the court and with Russ on because they traded away all their depth to acquire him in the first place.

[Dr Aki]

Read on Twitter

[Champ1on]

I soft cringe inside when Perkins speak or I see a quote from him. I always need to check my thoughts for a few seconds to comprehend what was said. The English language dies more and more every year.

[Roscoe Sheed]

Moving Russ to accommodate Harden is funny to me.

LAC was better when they had Russ and had not moved for Harden (Early this year at least - and its not debatable). Now to accommodate their ill advised addition they are dumping the guy that they were playing well with to try and build around the new guy that has turned them into a dumpster fire.

Harden is a better player than Westbrook- he is a better passer, shooter, and even more effective at penetration (due to the fact that even though Westbrook can get to the rim more readily, he very often just chucks it up at the basket seemingly without consideration of actually trying to make it). I give credit to Westbrook for providing effort at all times, but he is so out of control that he is counter-productive and his minutes should be given to Hyland. The team needs more youth- Hyland and Brown should each be playing at least 15 minutes a game.

[cgf]

I soft cringe inside when Perkins speak or I see a quote from him. I always need to check my thoughts for a few seconds to comprehend what was said. The English language dies more and more every year.

Well done

[johanliebert]

you nerds have said much worse.

[og15]

I soft cringe inside when Perkins speak or I see a quote from him. I always need to check my thoughts for a few seconds to comprehend what was said. The English language dies more and more every year.

Modern English is "bad English" though, lol, us modern English speakers aren't really in the position to be high and mighty about English dying.

Old English died and arose as our modern mish-mash English with combination of German, Celtic and French influences, Latin so we could be pretentious, Greek for Scientific stuff so it sounds cooler but doesn't make sense, discarding of gendered nouns like most other languages around us have, and with our prepositions at the ends of sentences that barely any other language does.

English is in a sense one of the most random, kind of all over the place languages, so us somehow feeling the the version we grew up with is the standard is funny though. Perkins is just continuing to push the evolution of the language

[levon]

Yes, Russ is in decline, especially now that he's 35. That's not the point. He was clearly better before and after Lakers, and better without Lebron on the court while with Lakers.

Last year, Westbrook and LBJ were +6.8 points per 100 possessions in 730 minutes when they were on the court together....The problem, Westbrook was bad with every other combination but Ham (or Vogel the year before) were forced to play him at the end of almost every game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/lineups/2023

Again, not the point. Lakers were good with Lebron on the court because Lebron is a great player. Lakers were not good with Lebron off the court and with Russ on because they traded away all their depth to acquire him in the first place.

Not the point? This poster directly refuted your claim that Westbrook was better with LeBron off, did they not? In fact, the LeBron two-man combo was better than any other two-man combo, over twice as effective as with Kawhi. Now you're just shifting goalposts. You tried the driveby on LeBron and crashed into the fire hydrant.

[VanWest82]

Last year, Westbrook and LBJ were +6.8 points per 100 possessions in 730 minutes when they were on the court together....The problem, Westbrook was bad with every other combination but Ham (or Vogel the year before) were forced to play him at the end of almost every game

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01/lineups/2023

Again, not the point. Lakers were good with Lebron on the court because Lebron is a great player. Lakers were not good with Lebron off the court and with Russ on because they traded away all their depth to acquire him in the first place.

Not the point? This poster directly refuted your claim that Westbrook was better with LeBron off, did they not? In fact, the LeBron two-man combo was better than any other two-man combo, over twice as effective as with Kawhi. Now you're just shifting goalposts. You tried the driveby on LeBron and crashed into the fire hydrant.

You have it backwards.

Poster Homer38 tried the driveby with his facetious "blame Lebron" comment regarding Russ's individual #s. Poster Heej joined in to suggest it would be erroneous to ascribe any blame to Lebron for Lakers acquiring Westbrook. These comments were both incorrect as I've already explained (i.e. Russ's better #s before and after Lakers, and better without than with Lebron; Shams article detailing Lebron's heavy involvement in Russ deal).

Poster Homer38 then shifted goalposts to it being about line up data with Russ which wasn't the orginal claim. Surely, we're not making Russ have to clear the bar of being compared to Lebron lifitng line ups. The original inferred claim was that Lebron was not responsible in any way for the dip in Russ's individual play while with Lakers - you posted about TS% and TOV rate. The wowy doesn't agree with you, and all providing line up data does is say Lebron is great (we already knew that) and that Russ wasn't good enough to carry crappy Lakers line ups that didn't have enough size or talent after the trading for Russ which Lebron and AD (and Russ) orchestrated.

Make sense?

[Ballings7]

Russ' be like : "ya eff y'all"

Continues to play quality, impactful 'ball for LAC

Still one of the best athletes in the league, and brings it every night on both ends.

[levon]

Again, not the point. Lakers were good with Lebron on the court because Lebron is a great player. Lakers were not good with Lebron off the court and with Russ on because they traded away all their depth to acquire him in the first place.

Not the point? This poster directly refuted your claim that Westbrook was better with LeBron off, did they not? In fact, the LeBron two-man combo was better than any other two-man combo, over twice as effective as with Kawhi. Now you're just shifting goalposts. You tried the driveby on LeBron and crashed into the fire hydrant.

You have it backwards.

Poster Homer38 tried the driveby with his facetious "blame Lebron" comment regarding Russ's individual #s. Poster Heej joined in to suggest it would be erroneous to ascribe any blame to Lebron for Lakers acquiring Westbrook. These comments were both incorrect as I've already explained (i.e. Russ's better #s before and after Lakers, and better without than with Lebron; Shams article detailing Lebron's heavy involvement in Russ deal).

Poster Homer38 then shifted goalposts to it being about line up data with Russ which wasn't the orginal claim. Surely, we're not making Russ have to clear the bar of being compared to Lebron lifitng line ups. The original inferred claim was that Lebron was not to blame in any way for the dip in Russ's individual play while with Lakers - you posted about TS% and TOV rate. The wowy doesn't agree with you, and all providing line up data does is say Lebron is great (we already knew that) and that Russ wasn't good enough to carry crappy Lakers line ups that didn't have enough size or talent after the trading for Russ which Lebron and AD (and Russ) orchestrated.

Make sense?

Yeah, it makes total sense. You're using an argument that Russ' individual counting/arbitrary efficiency stats were better before and after the Lakers. If you torture the data enough, it'll give you anything you want.

The reality is the last time Westbrook delivered star-level impact was 2017-2018. The last time he was a positive starter was 18-19. Since then, he's been a net negative and in precipitous decline.

You're trying to make the argument that LeBron made the mistake to acquire Westbrook at the cost of all the team's depth, which in turn made Russ look worse then he actually is. If you want to spill all this ink spraying cologne on a turd, you're welcome to. All I'll say is you were apt in saying that lineup combinations with LeBron will be great because LeBron is a great player. Westbrook's impact numbers are consistently in the negatives. Ergo ... you figure out the rest.

I'm tired of Westbrook being some teambuilding enigma like, oh if you figure out the exact permutation of players and lineups and salaries then Westbrook is actually productive! Yeah, I'm sure if you took Bojan Bogdanovic and tailored your entire team around him, his impact stats would be higher too. Westbrook's consistently played with all-time talent his entire career and here we are still trying to squint and find 10 game stretches where his RAPTOR is actually 0.4 instead of -2.2.

[VanWest82]

Not the point? This poster directly refuted your claim that Westbrook was better with LeBron off, did they not? In fact, the LeBron two-man combo was better than any other two-man combo, over twice as effective as with Kawhi. Now you're just shifting goalposts. You tried the driveby on LeBron and crashed into the fire hydrant.

You have it backwards.

Poster Homer38 tried the driveby with his facetious "blame Lebron" comment regarding Russ's individual #s. Poster Heej joined in to suggest it would be erroneous to ascribe any blame to Lebron for Lakers acquiring Westbrook. These comments were both incorrect as I've already explained (i.e. Russ's better #s before and after Lakers, and better without than with Lebron; Shams article detailing Lebron's heavy involvement in Russ deal).

Poster Homer38 then shifted goalposts to it being about line up data with Russ which wasn't the orginal claim. Surely, we're not making Russ have to clear the bar of being compared to Lebron lifitng line ups. The original inferred claim was that Lebron was not to blame in any way for the dip in Russ's individual play while with Lakers - you posted about TS% and TOV rate. The wowy doesn't agree with you, and all providing line up data does is say Lebron is great (we already knew that) and that Russ wasn't good enough to carry crappy Lakers line ups that didn't have enough size or talent after the trading for Russ which Lebron and AD (and Russ) orchestrated.

Make sense?

Yeah, it makes total sense. You're using an argument that Russ' individual counting/arbitrary efficiency stats were better before and after the Lakers. If you torture the data enough, it'll give you anything you want.

The reality is the last time Westbrook delivered star-level impact was 2017-2018. The last time he was a positive starter was 18-19. Since then, he's been a net negative and in precipitous decline.

You're trying to make the argument that LeBron made the mistake to acquire Westbrook at the cost of all the team's depth, which in turn made Russ look worse then he actually is. If you want to spill all this ink spraying cologne on a turd, you're welcome to. All I'll say is you were apt in saying that lineup combinations with LeBron will be great because LeBron is a great player. Westbrook's impact numbers are consistently in the negatives. Ergo ... you figure out the rest.

I'm tired of Westbrook being some teambuilding enigma like, oh if you figure out the exact permutation of players and lineups and salaries then Westbrook is actually productive! Yeah, I'm sure if you took Bojan Bogdanovic and tailored lineups and plays for him too, his impact stats would be higher too. Westbrook's consistently played with all-time talent his entire career and here we are still trying to squint and find 10 game stretches where his RAPTOR is actually 0.4 instead of -2.2.

I don't disagree that Russ is well into decline and has been overrated for a good while now (though it's to the point where I think he might have been underrated by some with Houston and Washington and Clippers last year). You're tired of Westbrook being some teambuilding enigma, and I'm tired of Lebron fans overly trashing any star player he's paired himself with to the point where it's just inaccurate. I think we can both be right here.

[levon]

You have it backwards.

Poster Homer38 tried the driveby with his facetious "blame Lebron" comment regarding Russ's individual #s. Poster Heej joined in to suggest it would be erroneous to ascribe any blame to Lebron for Lakers acquiring Westbrook. These comments were both incorrect as I've already explained (i.e. Russ's better #s before and after Lakers, and better without than with Lebron; Shams article detailing Lebron's heavy involvement in Russ deal).

Poster Homer38 then shifted goalposts to it being about line up data with Russ which wasn't the orginal claim. Surely, we're not making Russ have to clear the bar of being compared to Lebron lifitng line ups. The original inferred claim was that Lebron was not to blame in any way for the dip in Russ's individual play while with Lakers - you posted about TS% and TOV rate. The wowy doesn't agree with you, and all providing line up data does is say Lebron is great (we already knew that) and that Russ wasn't good enough to carry crappy Lakers line ups that didn't have enough size or talent after the trading for Russ which Lebron and AD (and Russ) orchestrated.

Make sense?

Yeah, it makes total sense. You're using an argument that Russ' individual counting/arbitrary efficiency stats were better before and after the Lakers. If you torture the data enough, it'll give you anything you want.

The reality is the last time Westbrook delivered star-level impact was 2017-2018. The last time he was a positive starter was 18-19. Since then, he's been a net negative and in precipitous decline.

You're trying to make the argument that LeBron made the mistake to acquire Westbrook at the cost of all the team's depth, which in turn made Russ look worse then he actually is. If you want to spill all this ink spraying cologne on a turd, you're welcome to. All I'll say is you were apt in saying that lineup combinations with LeBron will be great because LeBron is a great player. Westbrook's impact numbers are consistently in the negatives. Ergo ... you figure out the rest.

I'm tired of Westbrook being some teambuilding enigma like, oh if you figure out the exact permutation of players and lineups and salaries then Westbrook is actually productive! Yeah, I'm sure if you took Bojan Bogdanovic and tailored lineups and plays for him too, his impact stats would be higher too. Westbrook's consistently played with all-time talent his entire career and here we are still trying to squint and find 10 game stretches where his RAPTOR is actually 0.4 instead of -2.2.

I don't disagree that Russ is well into decline and has been overrated for a good while now (though it's to the point where I think he might have been underrated by some with Houston and Washington and Clippers last year). You're tired of Westbrook being some teambuilding enigma, and I'm tired of Lebron fans overly trashing any star player he's paired himself with to the point where it's just inaccurate. I think we can both be right here.

We can both be right only if you acknowledge that Lakers Westbrook was not a star by any means. You're free to apply that to any other star player LeBron's played with and I don't really have a horse in that race.

But you can't have seriously watched the 21-23 Lakers and tell me that Westbrook slander is LeBron apologism. LeBron and AD themselves levied to get him. Two separate coaches tried to make it work, the second of whom prioritized Russ more than LeBron or anyone else, to a bewildering degree. He had the gall in an exit interview to say LeBron and AD didn't "let Russ be Russ". He fired his own agent who was advising him to take a buyout (which he ended up doing anyway). He faked an injury in the preseason or early season when his ego got hurt from coming off the bench.

The lack of depth argument only works for 21-22 maybe, but the 22-23 team literally replaced him with two neutral impact players and one big negative in Beasley and went from 13th to the WCF.

In fact, I think even if Westbrook had been neutral or good on the Lakers, I wouldn't buy that LeBron stans would be character assassinating him. Westbrook had three top-3 MVP players in their primes leave him. At this point he's played with more collective talent anyone else in his era and has nothing but counting stats to show for it. But I'm supposed to believe he's just bullied or misunderstood.