2003 Tim Duncan is transported to 2024 NBA

[70sFan]

Who are you to say he doesnt?

Nobody does, that's the point.

We're on an anonymous message board. We should stick to judging people's arguments. I get you have trouble with that concept.

I don't, it's just that your arguments are trash, so I don't see any reason to listen to you.

[One_and_Done]

Nobody does, that's the point.

We're on an anonymous message board. We should stick to judging people's arguments. I get you have trouble with that concept.

I don't, it's just that your arguments are trash, so I don't see any reason to listen to you.

I am not stressed about having the strength of my arguments attacked by a guy who thinks old timers like Bob Cousy could be stars today; an inherently laughable premise.

[70sFan]

We're on an anonymous message board. We should stick to judging people's arguments. I get you have trouble with that concept.

I don't, it's just that your arguments are trash, so I don't see any reason to listen to you.

I am not stressed about having the strength of my arguments attacked by a guy who thinks old timers like Bob Cousy could be stars today; an inherently laughable premise.

OK, good to know you can't listen.

[Jcity08]

Duncan was a very cerebral player for a bigman and a prolific defender. He is THE BIG FUNDAMENTAL. He's one of those players can be great in any era.

[dj20001]

We are not family.

Pau was a top 15 player at the time of the trade. 11th in WS, 9th in VORP, and 17th in PER. He was not only on the rise after being hurt the prior year and missing nearly 30 games, but he was a perfect fit with his passing game to complement Kobe. At the time it was a shocker to everyone that they'd trade him for so little given his epic 2006 season.

You're right, we're not. That's why I said fam. Stay on topic anyways. No need to be emotional - its just sports.

Pau's brother being included was a deal breaker. The Grizzlies had already scouted Pau in Spain, they knew ALL about Marc. Pau accomplished all of those things and still barely cracked 20 PPG as a main option. One all star appearance and no All NBA teams pre LA. Sounds like you want him to be a Top 15 player to fit a narrative.

As long as we agree that it was a terrible trade and it nobody knew how good Marc would get. We good.

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

[Quattro]

Number 1

If 2003 TD play in today’s game. He is still the best player in the league.

Correct answer.

[dhsilv2]

You're right, we're not. That's why I said fam. Stay on topic anyways. No need to be emotional - its just sports.

Pau's brother being included was a deal breaker. The Grizzlies had already scouted Pau in Spain, they knew ALL about Marc. Pau accomplished all of those things and still barely cracked 20 PPG as a main option. One all star appearance and no All NBA teams pre LA. Sounds like you want him to be a Top 15 player to fit a narrative.

As long as we agree that it was a terrible trade and it nobody knew how good Marc would get. We good.

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

You realize how dumb you sound right? And more importantly why.

[One_and_Done]

You're right, we're not. That's why I said fam. Stay on topic anyways. No need to be emotional - its just sports.

Pau's brother being included was a deal breaker. The Grizzlies had already scouted Pau in Spain, they knew ALL about Marc. Pau accomplished all of those things and still barely cracked 20 PPG as a main option. One all star appearance and no All NBA teams pre LA. Sounds like you want him to be a Top 15 player to fit a narrative.

As long as we agree that it was a terrible trade and it nobody knew how good Marc would get. We good.

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

The Grizzlies (and Lakers) had no idea how good Marc was. He was a throw in. Not only was he barely mentioned in the Grizzlies PR relating to the trade (which focussed on getting J.Crittenon, and "the biggest expiring contract we could find"), but the Grizzlies almost didn't bring him over when they did. Why? They were saving their buyout money for another euro prospect (I forget his name, but he sucked) and didn't think they could bring both over. If they had any conception of how good he was neither would be the case.

The Lakers own GM admits that in negotiations they told Memphis they could have either Sun Yye or Marc, but not both. He was not even a guy the Lakers or Grizzlies valued above a random Chinese prospect.
https://theathletic.com/2277811/2020/12/23/marc-gasol-lakers-draft-pick-trade-history-nba-basketball/

[dj20001]

As long as we agree that it was a terrible trade and it nobody knew how good Marc would get. We good.

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

The Grizzlies (and Lakers) had no idea how good Marc was. He was a throw in. Not only was he barely mentioned in the Grizzlies PR relating to the trade (which focussed on getting J.Crittenon, and "the biggest expiring contract we could find"), but the Grizzlies almost didn't bring him over when they did. Why? They were saving their buyout money for another euro prospect (I forget his name, but he sucked) and didn't think they could bring both over. If they had any conception of how good he was neither would be the case.

The Lakers own GM admits that in negotiations they told Memphis they could have either Sun Yye or Marc, but not both. He was not even a guy the Lakers or Grizzlies valued above a random Chinese prospect.
https://theathletic.com/2277811/2020/12/23/marc-gasol-lakers-draft-pick-trade-history-nba-basketball/

With all due respect, more often than not, Mitch Kupchak had no idea what he was doing. Just look at his history of misusing or misallocating assets. He would have been long gone if not for Jerry West setting him up with Shaq and Kobe before leaving the franchise.

Clearly Memphis knew more than nothing, otherwise just take Sun Yue.

[dj20001]

As long as we agree that it was a terrible trade and it nobody knew how good Marc would get. We good.

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

You realize how dumb you sound right? And more importantly why.

Beyond dumb. Clearly dumb enough to think that a team would have zero clue that an NBA players younger sibling is any good or has potential. Wait...

Keep it pushing.

[One_and_Done]

If the Grizzlies scouted Pau, then they definitely knew Marc was going to be pretty good. Marc also came to live with Pau in Memphis for a spell if I'm not mistaken. So the team got more than enough opportunities to confirm his potential.

They knew all about him, it wasn't luck that he turned out to be a really solid player. Crazy that he accomplished more in a Grizzly uniform compared to Pau, even if you limit the number of years to match.

The Grizzlies (and Lakers) had no idea how good Marc was. He was a throw in. Not only was he barely mentioned in the Grizzlies PR relating to the trade (which focussed on getting J.Crittenon, and "the biggest expiring contract we could find"), but the Grizzlies almost didn't bring him over when they did. Why? They were saving their buyout money for another euro prospect (I forget his name, but he sucked) and didn't think they could bring both over. If they had any conception of how good he was neither would be the case.

The Lakers own GM admits that in negotiations they told Memphis they could have either Sun Yye or Marc, but not both. He was not even a guy the Lakers or Grizzlies valued above a random Chinese prospect.
https://theathletic.com/2277811/2020/12/23/marc-gasol-lakers-draft-pick-trade-history-nba-basketball/

With all due respect, more often than not, Mitch Kupchak had no idea what he was doing. Just look at his history of misusing or misallocating assets. He would have been long gone if not for Jerry West setting him up with Shaq and Kobe before leaving the franchise.

Clearly Memphis knew more than nothing, otherwise just take Sun Yue.

If Memphis had any concept of how good Marc was then:
1) They would have emphasised him in the PR campaign they had to launch, following the fall out in the trade. I can show you press releases from the time, the guy is barely mentioned. He's a literal footnote at the bottom of a press release that talks about Crittenon and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.
2) They wouldn't have messed around with his buyout so they could bring over some other trivial player who was so inconsequential I don't even remember his name.
3) They would have just said 'we'll take Marc, you can keep this worthless Chinese prospect'. Instead they risked getting neither. It's also clear the Grizzlies didn't say Marc has to be in, with Yue as the sticking point. Kupchak literally tells us they were treated equally by both teams in negotiations, with them going back and forth on which one it could be, or whether it had to be both.

Here's a typical article from 2008 after the trade. Marc is not even mentioned when describing the trade.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-feb-09-sp-elliott9-story.html

[dj20001]

The Grizzlies (and Lakers) had no idea how good Marc was. He was a throw in. Not only was he barely mentioned in the Grizzlies PR relating to the trade (which focussed on getting J.Crittenon, and "the biggest expiring contract we could find"), but the Grizzlies almost didn't bring him over when they did. Why? They were saving their buyout money for another euro prospect (I forget his name, but he sucked) and didn't think they could bring both over. If they had any conception of how good he was neither would be the case.

The Lakers own GM admits that in negotiations they told Memphis they could have either Sun Yye or Marc, but not both. He was not even a guy the Lakers or Grizzlies valued above a random Chinese prospect.
https://theathletic.com/2277811/2020/12/23/marc-gasol-lakers-draft-pick-trade-history-nba-basketball/

With all due respect, more often than not, Mitch Kupchak had no idea what he was doing. Just look at his history of misusing or misallocating assets. He would have been long gone if not for Jerry West setting him up with Shaq and Kobe before leaving the franchise.

Clearly Memphis knew more than nothing, otherwise just take Sun Yue.

If Memphis had any concept of how good Marc was then:
1) They would have emphasised him in the PR campaign they had to launch, following the fall out in the trade. I can show you press releases from the time, the guy is barely mentioned. He's a literal footnote at the bottom of a press release that talks about Crittenon and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.
2) They wouldn't have messed around with his buyout so they could bring over some other trivial player who was so inconsequential I don't even remember his name.
3) They would have just said 'we'll take Marc, you can keep this worthless Chinese prospect'. Instead they risked getting neither. It's also clear the Grizzlies didn't say Marc has to be in, with Yue as the sticking point. Kupchak literally tells us they were treated equally by both teams in negotiations, with them going back and forth on which one it could be, or whether it had to be both.

Because he was a second round pick with zero NBA experience to that point. Same as Jokic. Crittenton was seen as the better player given his draft status and had semi local ties with Georgia and playing at GT. But that doesn't mean Memphis didn't feel good about getting Marc. Promoting him after his brother was a wash probably would not have gone over well with fans either.

Please find where the Grizzlies made mention of Marc being a "throw-in" and you've got something.

For all we know they were playing Kupchak. Everything you've shared is from his vantage point and as a Laker fan since 96 he's an idiot. Those teams ended up winning in spite of him more often that not. One good move surrounded by a handful of terrible ones.

[art_tatum]

It is absolutely crazy that somehow Jokic is still so underrated on this sub.
No one from the past 40 years other than Prime LeBron, Shaq(2000-02) or MJ were better than current version of Jokic.

Duncan wouldn't be down 0-2 to the wolves with jokers cast.

Sure joker fills up the stats sheet which makes a lot of fake advanced stats like PER look good ( similar to lebron) but he lacks asymmetric offense. Ofc his D is bad which is more important for centers. He is still an all time peak though.

Imo I have prime curry and Duncan slightly ahead as well as
Lebron shaq and mj. Maybeeeeeee Hakeem too.

That's no slight to joker, these players are in the top 10 all time.

[One_and_Done]

With all due respect, more often than not, Mitch Kupchak had no idea what he was doing. Just look at his history of misusing or misallocating assets. He would have been long gone if not for Jerry West setting him up with Shaq and Kobe before leaving the franchise.

Clearly Memphis knew more than nothing, otherwise just take Sun Yue.

If Memphis had any concept of how good Marc was then:
1) They would have emphasised him in the PR campaign they had to launch, following the fall out in the trade. I can show you press releases from the time, the guy is barely mentioned. He's a literal footnote at the bottom of a press release that talks about Crittenon and Kwame Brown's expiring contract.
2) They wouldn't have messed around with his buyout so they could bring over some other trivial player who was so inconsequential I don't even remember his name.
3) They would have just said 'we'll take Marc, you can keep this worthless Chinese prospect'. Instead they risked getting neither. It's also clear the Grizzlies didn't say Marc has to be in, with Yue as the sticking point. Kupchak literally tells us they were treated equally by both teams in negotiations, with them going back and forth on which one it could be, or whether it had to be both.

Because he was a second round pick with zero NBA experience to that point. Same as Jokic. Crittenton was seen as the better player given his draft status but that doesn't mean Memphis didn't feel good about getting Marc.

Please find where the Grizzlies made mention of Marc being a "throw-in" and you've got something.

For all we know they were playing Kupchak. Everything you've shared is from his vantage point and as a Laker fan since 96 he's an idiot. Those teams ended up winning in spite of him more often that not. One good move surrounded by a handful of terrible ones.

Memphis might 'feel good' about getting a soda machine thrown into the deal, but it's not why you do the deal. That's why it's called a throw-in.

Chris Wallace has an interview in 2008 here, and this is the most enthusiastic comment I can find about Marc in which he says he'd have been a 1st round pick this year. He still gets minimal billing, mentioned last after Crittenon, Kwame, and the two 1sts.
https://www.espn.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&id=3226776

If the Grizzlies knew how good Marc was they'd have kept Pau and gotten Marc for peanuts. Apparently the Lakers valued him as equivalent to Sun Yue, so it should have been simple to have both.

[tsherkin]

Number 1

If 2003 TD play in today’s game. He is still the best player in the league.

Correct answer.

Definitely not #1. Just couldn't be good enough as a two-way guy to secure that title.

Would certainly still be great on the boards and on D, though, and good enough on O that he'd be among the best in the league.

[LakerLegend]

Number 1

If 2003 TD play in today’s game. He is still the best player in the league.

Correct answer.

Definitely not #1. Just couldn't be good enough as a two-way guy to secure that title.

Would certainly still be great on the boards and on D, though, and good enough on O that he'd be among the best in the league.

That's like saying because Jokic isn't good on D he isn't good enough as a two way guy to be #1.

There's no one else in today's game who's in his stratosphere.

[tsherkin]

There's no one else in today's game who's in his stratosphere.

No, that's definitely inaccurate. There are a bunch of guys who are in his stratosphere. And Duncan's offensive impact would be clearly lessened in this era, even accounting for this being his peak season, so that really undercuts that comparison's utility...

[LakerLegend]

There's no one else in today's game who's in his stratosphere.

No, that's definitely inaccurate. There are a bunch of guys who are in his stratosphere. And Duncan's offensive impact would be clearly lessened in this era, even accounting for this being his peak season, so that really undercuts that comparison's utility...

Who's in 03 Duncan's stratosphere? 03 Duncan is considered one of the greatest peaks in NBA history. Only Jokic is currently in that discussion.

If anything Duncan's offensive impact would be better. He was a great team offensive player (setting screens, smart passer, moving without the ball, getting teammates open etc.)

Look at an old Duncan on the 14 Spurs who were very much a "modern" offense.

He wasn't just a post-up guy which BTW, Jokic makes a lot of his living off of.

[One_and_Done]

There's no one else in today's game who's in his stratosphere.

No, that's definitely inaccurate. There are a bunch of guys who are in his stratosphere. And Duncan's offensive impact would be clearly lessened in this era, even accounting for this being his peak season, so that really undercuts that comparison's utility...

Duncan would get some benefits offensively today too though, and adjust accordingly. His D is GOAT tier, so pretty sure he'd be the best player.

[tsherkin]

Who's in 03 Duncan's stratosphere? 03 Duncan is considered one of the greatest peaks in NBA history. Only Jokic is currently in that discussion.

No, that's also wrong.

Luka, Jokic, SGA right now, Giannis when he's healthy... there are a bunch of guys on a similar plane. Don't confuse accomplishment with player value; they aren't the same thing.

If anything Duncan's offensive impact would be better.

Gods, no. That's DEFINITEY wrong. He wasn't good enough on offense in a primary scoring role for that to be true. Yes, if you played him like his 2014 self, that would be valuable. Duncan was always unselfish, and didn't care about stats. He did what Pops said was necessary to win, and then stepped it up as necessary. But he wasn't a good enough shooter from basically anywhere to be a high-volume scorer of value in this environment. He had structural limitations on his utility. So a sensible strategy wouldn't have him scoring a ton, he'd be more like his later self, where he was more of a decoy. And that limits his upper bound relative to others.

Look at an old Duncan on the 14 Spurs who were very much a "modern" offense.

Right. And he was a 29 mpg player who took 12 FGA/g that year. Not really sure you're grokking my point if you're raising that season as being of relevance to this discussion.

He wasn't just a post-up guy which BTW, Jokic makes a lot of his living off of.

Sure, but he wasn't as good a finisher, wasn't as good a passer, had nothing like Jokic's range and struggled at the line enough to separate himself there as well. Not really sure where that was going. Jokic is an ATG offensive player. Duncan was not; his bread and butter were defense, rebounding and team-centric attitude on O. He would scale poorly on O in this era due to skill limitations.