2024 NBA Playoffs - East 1st Round: #4 Cleveland Cavaliers vs. #5 Orlando Magic (CLE WINS 4-3)

[JonFromVA]

I think Allen+Niang still works better than an Allen+TT lineup, so I wouldn't abandon Niang completely. (I would if Wade were back.)

Technically, the Cavs could start Niang and save their two big lineup for when Orlando goes to their bench; but they'd be inviting all sorts of problems on the defensive side. Of course they could try to put Niang on WCJ instead of Banchero. And if they really wanted to get Orlando thinking they could use JA on Franz and Strus on Paolo; but hardly matters unless they get their offense clicking or the Magic forget how to shoot again.

I do not believe this would be a good idea. Of our top 10 player combinations, Mobley + Allen is actually the highest at a net of... 0.0.

Alas, running up the white flag isn't an option, so they either need to get the units they've got playing better via corrections or try a curve ball and hope the Magic's lack of preparation for it throws them off.

What they likely will do is hope the Magic can't shoot straight again and the 91 pts they're averaging in the series will be enough to win the game.

[jbk1234]

Might be time for a lineup change and sadly Garland may have to come off the bench. What was our record again when he was out early this year?

Take a look at the play-by-play for the 3rd quarter when Mitchell was out there alone in Game 4. Fans need to stop with X worked in the dog days of January against bad teams so therefore it will work against a good defensive team.

[JonFromVA]

Might be time for a lineup change and sadly Garland may have to come off the bench. What was our record again when he was out early this year?

Take a look at the play-by-play for the 3rd quarter when Mitchell was out there alone in Game 4. Fans need to stop with X worked in the dog days of January against bad teams so therefore it will work against a good defensive team.

If I thought this was the best Donovan Mitchell could play when it's not the "dog days of January", I'd trade him for salary relief and a bag of chips.

[JujitsuFlip]

Thanks toooskies!

Yeah, it has been painful to watch those 5 in this series.

jbk actually made that same suggestion, especially since JI is back on that bench unit, it has been even worse.

They could try swapping TT for Niang in the 8 man rotation, at least in the non Allen minutes. If Okoro keeps being hesitant maybe try Morris.

I'm not sure but i am sure I would stop running that 5 man unit ever again in this series.

I think Allen+Niang still works better than an Allen+TT lineup, so I wouldn't abandon Niang completely. (I would if Wade were back.)

Technically, the Cavs could start Niang and save their two big lineup for when Orlando goes to their bench; but they'd be inviting all sorts of problems on the defensive side. Of course they could try to put Niang on WCJ instead of Banchero. And if they really wanted to get Orlando thinking they could use JA on Franz and Strus on Paolo; but hardly matters unless they get their offense clicking or the Magic forget how to shoot again.

The thing that blew my mind, albeit 12 minutes that Niang and Strus are apart of the Cavs second best 5 man unit in this seires. Could be very dependent upon who they were facing and obviously at what part of the game.

Allen/Niang/Strus/LeVert/Mitchell

Kind of hard to find + units in this seires because they're almost all negative lol

[JujitsuFlip]

While on the topic of lineup data, Mosely's adjustment from JI to WCJ has paid off huge.

The Magic's game 1 & 2 starting 5 are -19.6 in the series and their game 3
& 4 starting 5 are +20.6 a freaking near 40 point swing. Also, by extension, that bench unit JI is now apart of for game 3 & 4 is a +28.6

Wow, i wish the Cavs had a coach who could make minor adjustments.

[jbk1234]

Might be time for a lineup change and sadly Garland may have to come off the bench. What was our record again when he was out early this year?

Take a look at the play-by-play for the 3rd quarter when Mitchell was out there alone in Game 4. Fans need to stop with X worked in the dog days of January against bad teams so therefore it will work against a good defensive team.

If I thought this was the best Donovan Mitchell could play when it's not the "dog days of January", I'd trade him for salary relief and a bag of chips.

It has more to do with the best the competition can play. Pushing the pace against a really good defensive team that gets back on defense produces different results than pushing the pace against a mediocre or bad team that's on it's 3rd game in 4 nights.

The same lineup that's getting killed by Mo and Issac was good against other units in-season. A big part of success in the playoffs is identifying opponent-specific favorable, or unfavorable matchups.

[JujitsuFlip]

A big part of success in the playoffs is identifying opponent specific favorable or unfavorable matchups.

Not for jb man. He just prays his guys will out-talent the competition and when they can't he says they need to be tougher and work on their conditioning.

Same story, different year.

I look forward to the same 8 guys playing tomorrow in the same rotation pattern as the first 4 games.

[JonFromVA]

Take a look at the play-by-play for the 3rd quarter when Mitchell was out there alone in Game 4. Fans need to stop with X worked in the dog days of January against bad teams so therefore it will work against a good defensive team.

If I thought this was the best Donovan Mitchell could play when it's not the "dog days of January", I'd trade him for salary relief and a bag of chips.

It has more to do with the best the competition can play. Pushing the pace against a really good defensive team that gets back on defense produces different results than pushing the pace against a mediocre or bad team that's on it's 3rd game in 4 nights.

The same lineup that's getting killed by Mo and Issac was good against other units in-season. A big part of success in the playoffs is identifying opponent specific favorable or unfavorable matchups.

Not really, none of that changes the fact that if Donovan Mitchell was playing at near MVP level like he's shown at various times in his career (including pre-All Star break) and Darius Garland was playing at an All-Star level like he's shown at various times in his career; everything would be going a lot easier for the Cavs and for all the players that need to feed off them.

Working around that takes magic that JB Bickerstaff does not possess and perhaps no coach does in this era.

His career is resting on those two guys stringing together more than one good quarter here or there, unless the Magic just aren't ready to win outside of Florida and find a way to out brick us.

[jbk1234]

If I thought this was the best Donovan Mitchell could play when it's not the "dog days of January", I'd trade him for salary relief and a bag of chips.

It has more to do with the best the competition can play. Pushing the pace against a really good defensive team that gets back on defense produces different results than pushing the pace against a mediocre or bad team that's on it's 3rd game in 4 nights.

The same lineup that's getting killed by Mo and Issac was good against other units in-season. A big part of success in the playoffs is identifying opponent specific favorable or unfavorable matchups.

Not really, none of that changes the fact that if Donovan Mitchell was playing at near MVP level like he's shown at various times in his career (including pre-All Star break) and Darius Garland was playing at an All-Star level like he's shown at various times in his career; everything would be going a lot easier for the Cavs and for all the players that need to feed off them.

Working around that takes magic that JB Bickerstaff does not possess and perhaps no coach does in this era.

His career is resting on those two guys stringing together more than one good quarter here or there, unless the Magic just aren't ready to win outside of Florida and find a way to out brick us.

Mosley looked at what was happening with the two teams playing this series, said we're not getting it done starting Isaac against the Cavs starters, moved him to the bench, and it's paid dividends. He looked at how effective Suggs was against Garland, how effective Harris was against Mitchell, switched assignments, and it's paid dividends.

There's a big difference between college and the pros and it has to do with adjusting to matchup issues that are team-specific in a 7-game series.

[Residual-Heat]

While on the topic of lineup data, Mosely's adjustment from JI to WCJ has paid off huge.

The Magic's game 1 & 2 starting 5 are -19.6 in the series and their game 3
& 4 starting 5 are +20.6 a freaking near 40 point swing. Also, by extension, that bench unit JI is now apart of for game 3 & 4 is a +28.6

Wow, i wish the Cavs had a coach who could make minor adjustments.

Thats one way to look at it, but also keep in mind that WCJ had been the starter all year. So he is readjusting his adjustment.

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

[JujitsuFlip]

While on the topic of lineup data, Mosely's adjustment from JI to WCJ has paid off huge.

The Magic's game 1 & 2 starting 5 are -19.6 in the series and their game 3
& 4 starting 5 are +20.6 a freaking near 40 point swing. Also, by extension, that bench unit JI is now apart of for game 3 & 4 is a +28.6

Wow, i wish the Cavs had a coach who could make minor adjustments.

Thats one way to look at it, but also keep in mind that WCJ had been the starter all year. So he is readjusting his adjustment.

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

Yeah, very true. Either way Mosley has made 4 minor adjustments this seires that have led to major impacts.

I think some fans are forgetting the Magic had it down to a 9 point lead with a little over a mintue left in the 4th of game 2. Where on the flipside the Cavs have been down by 30+ the last 2 games.

Hearing jb's tone deaf presser today was very uninspiring and raised a lot of eyebrows. The guy is just wholly clueless.

[J the Drafter]

While on the topic of lineup data, Mosely's adjustment from JI to WCJ has paid off huge.

The Magic's game 1 & 2 starting 5 are -19.6 in the series and their game 3
& 4 starting 5 are +20.6 a freaking near 40 point swing. Also, by extension, that bench unit JI is now apart of for game 3 & 4 is a +28.6

Wow, i wish the Cavs had a coach who could make minor adjustments.

Thats one way to look at it, but also keep in mind that WCJ had been the starter all year. So he is readjusting his adjustment.

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

Yeah, very true. Either way Mosley has made 4 minor adjustments this seires that have led to major impacts.

I think some fans are forgetting the Magic had it down to a 9 point lead with a little over a mintue left in the 4th of game 2. Where on the flipside the Cavs have been down by 30+ the last 2 games.

Hearing jb's tone deaf presser today was very uninspiring and raised a lot of eyebrows. The guy is just wholly clueless.

I haven’t watched the playoffs, and I haven’t watched Magic games in a while, but is it safe to assume that Wendell is a better screener than Isaac? Wendell is bigger and he’s used to playing center. Isaac plays like a wing on offense—getting rebounds and hitting perimeter shots. He’s a great player, but I don’t think screening is part of his skillset. Having WCJ in the game gives the ballhandlers better screens to attack from.

On another note, how many adjustments are actually available for Bickerstaff? From the sounds of it the Cavs are very Donovan Mitchell-dependent, with an underperforming Darius as the only other ballhandler. And you Cavs fans hate your bench. It doesn’t sound like Bickerstaff has much to work with.

[JujitsuFlip]

Thats one way to look at it, but also keep in mind that WCJ had been the starter all year. So he is readjusting his adjustment.

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

Yeah, very true. Either way Mosley has made 4 minor adjustments this seires that have led to major impacts.

I think some fans are forgetting the Magic had it down to a 9 point lead with a little over a mintue left in the 4th of game 2. Where on the flipside the Cavs have been down by 30+ the last 2 games.

Hearing jb's tone deaf presser today was very uninspiring and raised a lot of eyebrows. The guy is just wholly clueless.

I haven’t watched the playoffs, and I haven’t watched Magic games in a while, but is it safe to assume that Wendell is a better screener than Isaac? Wendell is bigger and he’s used to playing center. Isaac plays like a wing on offense—getting rebounds and hitting perimeter shots. He’s a great player, but I don’t think screening is part of his skillset. Having WCJ in the game gives the ballhandlers better screens to attack from.

On another note, how many adjustments are actually available for Bickerstaff? From the sounds of it the Cavs are very Donovan Mitchell-dependent, with an underperforming Darius as the only other ballhandler. And you Cavs fans hate your bench. It doesn’t sound like Bickerstaff has much to work with.

I haven't paid all that much attention to who does or does not screen well on the Magic, tbh. I think the main difference is WCJ can keep Allen off the offensive boards better and that has paid dividends. I mean, those first 2 games, Allen made prime TT look like a horrible offensive rebounder.

Also, Cavs fans don't hate our bench, our head coach hates our bench. He has hated his bench the entire 5 seasons he's been the head coach. He has consistently played the shortest regular season rotation for years. We had a dude on our team forum do the math and it checked out.

As far as adjustments, there are a plenty and a lot of them are to counter Mosley, so then he has to come back with a counter of his own.

No one else agrees but Morris would be my starting SF for game 5, put him on Franz or Paolo and whichever one he doesn't take, Mobley takes.

Schematically I would run less high PnR (even though that is jb's entire offense). I would try to incorporate more floppy actions to get the ball and man movement jumpin'. That will help negate 2 things, one is how the Magic switched their PnR coverage and two it wouldn't matter who Suggs was guarding, go chase dudes off 2 or 3 off ball screens everytime down the floor.

jb is doing the same crap he did in the 2022 post season and the 2023 post season. He is just trying to out talent teams and it just doesn't work in the post season. The guy has had 3 good regular seasons and hard telling what woulda happened if they went to the bubble. Once the post season hits, teams lock in and game plan beyond the surface level. jb doesn't have that next gear or basketball iq, he absolutely sucks at x and o.

[SOUL]

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

WCJ was floundering as a starter for two weeks as we lost games we shouldn't have and got off to bad starts, being hurt, playing soft and not realizing he's 6'10? Also we looked really good with Isaac as a starter in the final game. You know damn well why he changed it lol. 90% of fans were asking for that change too.

They underestimated how the Cavs would be able to neutralize what makes Isaac great defensively if he started though. Part of that actually is on Paolo being a bad switch option on Allen, which they kept exploiting.

If we were against a lot of other teams with more mobile, perimeter-oriented centers, (Brook, Turner, etc), Isaac might still be starting.

[Residual-Heat]

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

WCJ was floundering as a starter for two weeks as we lost games we shouldn't have and got off to bad starts, being hurt, playing soft and not realizing he's 6'10? Also we looked really good with Isaac as a starter in the final game. You know damn well why he changed it lol. 90% of fans were asking for that change too.

They underestimated how the Cavs would be able to neutralize what makes Isaac great defensively if he started though. Part of that actually is on Paolo being a bad switch option on Allen, which they kept exploiting.

If we were against a lot of other teams with more mobile, perimeter-oriented centers, (Brook, Turner, etc), Isaac might still be starting.

Maybe I refuse to believe it

Its just too uncharacteristic of Mosley. Just based on what ive seen from him so far and how many chances he gives his players... I dont think he's the type to move his starter to the bench without giving him a chance.

I dont think he would change his line up based on one game after starting WCJ basically all season. Mosley had basically all season to test out the Paolo-Isaac at PF/C, but didnt like it enough to start them until he saw them play the last game of the season?

We know WCJ was dealing with a back issue...

Maybe Im wrong, and WCJ was fine when the play offs started. In which case, it was a mistake to start Isaac. I agree Isaac at center probably works against many other teams, but we know the Cavs are a big team. The play offs are no time to experiment, you make adjustments if you need to, but you have to initially stick to what you've done all season.

[SOUL]

Maybe Im wrong, and WCJ was fine when the play offs started. In which case, it was a mistake to start Isaac. I agree Isaac at center probably works against many other teams, but we know the Cavs are a big team. The play offs are no time to experiment, you make adjustments if you need to, but you have to initially stick to what you've done all season.

He did say he was ramping up minutes for Isaac before the playoffs started (or wanted to before his back spams), and they still all follow data. Fultz lost his starting spot, Ingles minutes have gone down, Cole has gotten less lately too. Basically just the anti-Thibs in terms of wanting to burn guys out with crazy minutes in the regular season, but it was VERY telling who he was willing to play in a do-or-die game against the Bucks. Fultz got like 5 minutes and Isaac was clearly his big man of choice.

Again though, I think you're operating from a default of WCJ clearly outplaying other big men and being a force inside. He clearly has regressed in that area. We were also 5-7 going into the playoffs with consistent terrible starts and a potential date with the play-in after flirting with the 2nd seed the prior week. All bets are off at that point, and WCJ's own play put him in that position.

Basically, there was nothing really pointing to WCJ as some move we shouldn't have tried to change other than we've played that lineup the most down the stretch, which is a decent argument, but you don't want to limp into the playoffs either. WCJ was 1-1 against the Cavs in the RS but in both games he was -11 and -22 having 2 rebs in one of the games.

But yeah, having multiple changes did end up helping, but I also think if we started WCJ, we'd still most likely be down 0-2, and we'd have different changes occurring lol.

edit: Basically, my overarching point was there was no concrete data you can point at saying how Isaac wouldn't work, considering he's been outplaying him all year, plays bigger, is a better defender, can switch better, starting lineup is floundering, both are up and down rebounders. Just turned out the extra 20 lbs and screening is important. It 100% was a bad move in retrospect, but also completely understandable considering the thought process.

[Roger Murdock]

This is the third post season in a row where every player on the roster is wildly under performing expectations. I wonder what the common trend is?

[Magicman125]

Thats one way to look at it, but also keep in mind that WCJ had been the starter all year. So he is readjusting his adjustment.

I still dont know why he decided to start Isaac at center (a position he doesnt normally play) in a play off series against a big front court. I assume it was because WCJ's back was not right, but who knows. Im not trying to blame Mosley for the losses though, swapping WCJ/Isaac was not the reason they shot the ball so poorly in the first two games. I also accept that Mosley is still growing as a coach.

Yeah, very true. Either way Mosley has made 4 minor adjustments this seires that have led to major impacts.

I think some fans are forgetting the Magic had it down to a 9 point lead with a little over a mintue left in the 4th of game 2. Where on the flipside the Cavs have been down by 30+ the last 2 games.

Hearing jb's tone deaf presser today was very uninspiring and raised a lot of eyebrows. The guy is just wholly clueless.

I haven’t watched the playoffs, and I haven’t watched Magic games in a while, but is it safe to assume that Wendell is a better screener than Isaac? Wendell is bigger and he’s used to playing center. Isaac plays like a wing on offense—getting rebounds and hitting perimeter shots. He’s a great player, but I don’t think screening is part of his skillset. Having WCJ in the game gives the ballhandlers better screens to attack from.

On another note, how many adjustments are actually available for Bickerstaff? From the sounds of it the Cavs are very Donovan Mitchell-dependent, with an underperforming Darius as the only other ballhandler. And you Cavs fans hate your bench. It doesn’t sound like Bickerstaff has much to work with.

Can confirm, screens are a weakness of Isaac's game and a strength of Wendell's.

[JonFromVA]

It has more to do with the best the competition can play. Pushing the pace against a really good defensive team that gets back on defense produces different results than pushing the pace against a mediocre or bad team that's on it's 3rd game in 4 nights.

The same lineup that's getting killed by Mo and Issac was good against other units in-season. A big part of success in the playoffs is identifying opponent specific favorable or unfavorable matchups.

Not really, none of that changes the fact that if Donovan Mitchell was playing at near MVP level like he's shown at various times in his career (including pre-All Star break) and Darius Garland was playing at an All-Star level like he's shown at various times in his career; everything would be going a lot easier for the Cavs and for all the players that need to feed off them.

Working around that takes magic that JB Bickerstaff does not possess and perhaps no coach does in this era.

His career is resting on those two guys stringing together more than one good quarter here or there, unless the Magic just aren't ready to win outside of Florida and find a way to out brick us.

Mosley looked at what was happening with the two teams playing this series, said we're not getting it done starting Isaac against the Cavs starters, moved him to the bench, and it's paid dividends. He looked at how effective Suggs was against Garland, how effective Harris was against Mitchell, switched assignments, and it's paid dividends.

There's a big difference between college and the pros and it has to do with adjusting to matchup issues that are team-specific in a 7-game series.

Funny that the two adjustments you mentioned, were just Mosley going back to what the Magic were doing in the regular season .vs. the Cavs. The Cavs should have been prepared and ready for those.

The Cavs still dropped 60pts in the first half of game 4 and then suddenly could barely score in the second half. There's a much simpler explanation for that I keep pointing out and I just wonder how many times you need to see it play out before you're going to be ready to ignore the typical athlete BS where they define being 100% healthy as being 100% on the floor.

[jbk1234]

This is the third post season in a row where every player on the roster is wildly under performing expectations. I wonder what the common trend is?

It's two years anyway. I have the play-in games going as expected without Rubio and Allen trying to play the second game one-handed. JBB did miss a counter to the Hawks picking on Lauri in 1-3 PNR in the second half.

The consistent theme is that the opposing team makes an in-series or in-game adjustment and we have no counter.