2024 NBA Playoffs - West 1st Round: #3 Minnesota Timberwolves vs. #6 Phoenix Suns (MIN SWEEPS 4-0)

[tamaraw08]

Exactly, so in summary

The suns:
- have their own pick in 2024
- might have a lower first-round pick in 26, 28, 30
- don't have a pick three years (25, 27,29)

If they wanted to they could trade two first rounders this off-season.

I'm not arguing their in a good situation, but they have 4 first round picks over the next 7 drafts, not zero.

it's annoying how rampant the false narrative of them having no first rounders is on here and elsewhere. The 2024 draft doesn't have the typical high-end talents you usually find at the top of most draft classes. But, it is extremely deep. If the Suns want they can stay at 22 and add a ready to contribute 3 and D wing like; da Silva, Watkins, McCullars. Or a point guard like; Kolek, Mitchell. Or a big like; Ware or Bona. Or, they can remedy their "no 2nd round picks" issue over the next several years by trading out of the first for a boatload of 2nd rounders and STILL get a contributing role player in the 2nd because it's such a deep class.

The hard part about building a team is finding stars. The Suns have two. The easiest part is finding role players and luckily for the Suns, late firsts and second round picks are loaded with them.

Does anyone really think that the Suns won't make the playoffs next year after adding talent, getting a new coach and improving chemistry? The picks they'll be sending out in 2025 is likely going to be in the 20s. Oh no!! The future picks might be an issue but the Suns were happy to mortgage a little of their far future for the chance to make the playoffs every year for a few seasons.

That said, the Beal move is mind-bogglingly stupid. The best they can hope for is he's motivated and can provide some positives on the court while they're stuck with him. Maybe sending him to the bench might get him the touches and provide the most impact? They have to salvage something out of this.

I don’t think the Suns are making the playoffs next year. They got incredibly lucky this year on health and still just snuck into the playoffs. Durant played 75 games after averaging 49 the last 9 seasons. What are the chances he repeats that at age 36? Almost zero. Nurkic played 76, the second highest of his career off of 4 seasons where he’d averaged 38.

And now if they just re-sign everyone from last year, they’re going to be $100MM over the cap. So what, they’re going to pay the biggest tax bill of all-time and hamstring their team to the point they start losing draft picks for being over the second apron just to keep Royce O’Neal at $18MM/year and get a better seed in the play-in tournament? No way.

Next year’s team is likely to have worse health, worse talent, age-related decline, and if they fire Vogel, probably a worse coach too. If I’m one of the tippy top coaching candidates in the off-season, I’m staying miles away from this dumpster fire. For 2024, I’m taking all the teams that finished ahead of them over them, plus the Lakers, Kings, Warriors, Rockets, and Grizzlies. They might need multiple teams to suffer injuries just to make the play-in tournament.

Plus don’t kid yourself, if the season starts bad, KD’s going to be looking for a way out. Why push yourself to play 65 games and fight for the last play-in spot when you can just milk your injuries instead, put in a little less effort on D, and convince the front office that it’s just not working. He can just hand pick some contenders that he wants to be moved to and take the easy way out again. Honestly, I don’t see the Suns making the playoffs again until Beal is off the books.

You made valid points but you can pretty much say the same things about the Lakers, Warriors and even the Clippers with Kawhi’s chronic injuries though.
Memphis and the Spurs will not be easy games too next year

[Michael Jackson]

Leaders in +/- for each first-round series: Rudy Gobert (+62), Jalen Williams (+60), Franz Wagner (+52), Myles Turner (+48), Jrue Holiday (+46), Joel Embiid (+34), Luka Doncic (+32), D'Angelo Russell (+15)

S/O Rudy

That stat is wrong. I was told Rudy is a liability in the playoffs and is a negative.

[WentzerWuver]

So many people here picked the Suns to win. Why?

pLaYoFf ExPeRiEnCe I guess.

If Beal had even a below averaged game yesterday, they would have won game 4 and you know it but he had a no show. He also owned the Wolves by going Bonkers on them during his career. Even Antman wouldn't trash talk on him cause he had owned them just like they had owned the Wolves all season based off advanced metrics in accordance to match-up game theories.

https://youtu.be/GNDbQjaBjbo?si=4iHd6oC4vbL8AdsU

But that's what happens with all streaky shooters, either you feel it on game day or you don't, so get over it. Suns are still more feared than most teams in this league and will go with the same lineup next season if I was in charge while you guys overreact like noobs.

[Klomp]

Has Vogel always been such a big "midrange" coach? Just thinking about the teams he's had success with, AD and LeBron live there a lot, and those Pacers teams had guys like David West and Paul George.

I think that's one of the big things that did them in. In part without Grayson Allen for the series, Minnesota attempted 20 more 3-pointers in the series. For decades, Minnesota was way behind in the 3-point math, but Chris Finch turned that around. Phoenix has good (even great) three-point shooters in Durant, Booker and Beal but they just didn't take enough of them.

[Michael Jackson]

Even if the swaps convert (they may or may not) that doesn't mean that the Suns don't have a first round pick.

There's kind of a big difference between "you don't have a first round pick for the next 6 years" and "you've got 3 first round picks in the next 6 years, including one in two months - and the other first picks could potentially be lower".

I was curious so I looked it up:

Here is where all those picks will be going, and if it’s a swap, what picks the Suns could have
2024-Least favorable of Suns, Grizzlies, or Wizards
2025-Nets (Unprotected)
2026-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Magic
2027-Nets (Unprotected)
2028-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Nets
2029-Nets (Unprotected)
2030-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Grizzlies

Exactly, so in summary

The suns:
- have their own pick in 2024
- might have a lower first-round pick in 26, 28, 30
- don't have a pick three years (25, 27,29)

If they wanted to they could trade two first rounders this off-season.

I'm not arguing they're in a good situation, but they have 4 first round picks over the next 7 drafts, not zero.

What 2 first rounders? 31 and 33?

[Mr Puddles]

I was curious so I looked it up:

Here is where all those picks will be going, and if it’s a swap, what picks the Suns could have
2024-Least favorable of Suns, Grizzlies, or Wizards
2025-Nets (Unprotected)
2026-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Magic
2027-Nets (Unprotected)
2028-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Nets
2029-Nets (Unprotected)
2030-Least favorable of Suns, Wizards, or Grizzlies

Exactly, so in summary

The suns:
- have their own pick in 2024
- might have a lower first-round pick in 26, 28, 30
- don't have a pick three years (25, 27,29)

If they wanted to they could trade two first rounders this off-season.

I'm not arguing they're in a good situation, but they have 4 first round picks over the next 7 drafts, not zero.

What 2 first rounders? 31 and 33?

On draft night, the Suns can trade '24 and '31 if they wish to do so.

[BloodNinja]

Has Vogel always been such a big "midrange" coach? Just thinking about the teams he's had success with, AD and LeBron live there a lot, and those Pacers teams had guys like David West and Paul George.

I think that's one of the big things that did them in. In part without Grayson Allen for the series, Minnesota attempted 20 more 3-pointers in the series. For decades, Minnesota was way behind in the 3-point math, but Chris Finch turned that around. Phoenix has good (even great) three-point shooters in Durant, Booker and Beal but they just didn't take enough of them.

Vogel told his team he wanted 40 3 pointers in Game 3, would settle for 35. They had 15 midway through the 3rd. It's on the players.

[Klomp]

Has Vogel always been such a big "midrange" coach? Just thinking about the teams he's had success with, AD and LeBron live there a lot, and those Pacers teams had guys like David West and Paul George.

I think that's one of the big things that did them in. In part without Grayson Allen for the series, Minnesota attempted 20 more 3-pointers in the series. For decades, Minnesota was way behind in the 3-point math, but Chris Finch turned that around. Phoenix has good (even great) three-point shooters in Durant, Booker and Beal but they just didn't take enough of them.

Vogel told his team he wanted 40 3 pointers in Game 3, would settle for 35. They had 15 midway through the 3rd. It's on the players.

Brutal.

It probably speaks to the larger issue of not having a point guard. I don't remember the timeline of when things occurred, but I can't help but think Ishbia wanted to create his own version of the Mavs. But I wonder if the key difference between a team like Dallas from the likes of the Suns and the Clippers is that Dallas' two go-to options are point guards, so when they want to facilitate they can have more success running an offense and getting efficient shots.

[WentzerWuver]

Leaders in +/- for each first-round series: Rudy Gobert (+62), Jalen Williams (+60), Franz Wagner (+52), Myles Turner (+48), Jrue Holiday (+46), Joel Embiid (+34), Luka Doncic (+32), D'Angelo Russell (+15)

S/O Rudy

That stat is wrong. I was told Rudy is a liability in the playoffs and is a negative.

Only homers would fudge their own players stats in their favor. Didn't you get the memo?

[slick_watts]

bradley beal isn't the worst defensive player in the world but having him defend anthony edwards for most of the fourth quarter was asking too much. isn't that what josh okogie is for? why even have EG + beal in the game if they are giving you nothing on offense.

[WentzerWuver]

bradley beal isn't the worst defensive player in the world but having him defend anthony edwards for most of the fourth quarter was asking too much. isn't that what josh okogie is for? why even have EG + beal in the game if they are giving you nothing on offense.

Cause Vogel is overrated. Why you think the Lakers fired him when he had Melo first game back from injury trying to guard Steph Lol

I would have kept Monty but this owner overreacts like these noob posters on here.

[Chuck Everett]

Playoff Nurkic went just as bad as one might have expected.

[Klomp]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[shrink]

Has Vogel always been such a big "midrange" coach? Just thinking about the teams he's had success with, AD and LeBron live there a lot, and those Pacers teams had guys like David West and Paul George.

I think that's one of the big things that did them in. In part without Grayson Allen for the series, Minnesota attempted 20 more 3-pointers in the series. For decades, Minnesota was way behind in the 3-point math, but Chris Finch turned that around. Phoenix has good (even great) three-point shooters in Durant, Booker and Beal but they just didn't take enough of them.

Vogel told his team he wanted 40 3 pointers in Game 3, would settle for 35. They had 15 midway through the 3rd. It's on the players.

But the Wolves defense is built to prevent three pointers. They were third in the NBA this season in 3 point defense, and they do that by sacrificing mid-rangers. And both KD and Booker excel at midrangers.

It’s hard to argue whether it’s the PHX coaches fault or the players, if they aren’t shooting three’s that are defended.

[Klomp]

Has Vogel always been such a big "midrange" coach? Just thinking about the teams he's had success with, AD and LeBron live there a lot, and those Pacers teams had guys like David West and Paul George.

I think that's one of the big things that did them in. In part without Grayson Allen for the series, Minnesota attempted 20 more 3-pointers in the series. For decades, Minnesota was way behind in the 3-point math, but Chris Finch turned that around. Phoenix has good (even great) three-point shooters in Durant, Booker and Beal but they just didn't take enough of them.

Vogel told his team he wanted 40 3 pointers in Game 3, would settle for 35. They had 15 midway through the 3rd. It's on the players.

But the Wolves defense is built to prevent three pointers. They were third in the NBA this season in 3 point defense, and they do that by sacrificing mid-rangers. And both KD and Booker excel at midrangers.

It’s hard to argue whether it’s the coaches fault or the players, if they aren’t shooting three’s that are defended.

This is true, but it still is telling that Vogel couldn't come up with any sort of adjustment. The only real adjustment Phoenix seemed to make in the series was putting Okogie in the rotation for Drew Eubanks.

Which is funny, because Eubanks was actually their one consistent contributor off the bench for the bulk of the series.

[shrink]

Vogel told his team he wanted 40 3 pointers in Game 3, would settle for 35. They had 15 midway through the 3rd. It's on the players.

But the Wolves defense is built to prevent three pointers. They were third in the NBA this season in 3 point defense, and they do that by sacrificing mid-rangers. And both KD and Booker excel at midrangers.

It’s hard to argue whether it’s the coaches fault or the players, if they aren’t shooting three’s that are defended.

This is true, but it still is telling that Vogel couldn't come up with any sort of adjustment. The only real adjustment Phoenix seemed to make in the series was putting Okogie in the rotation for Drew Eubanks.

Which is funny, because Eubanks was actually their one consistent contributor off the bench for the bulk of the series.

It seems that everybody is choosing their favorite scapegoat, and my choice would be the owner, for removing all the important role players pushing a “Big Splash” Bradley Beal trade. I understand that it takes stars to win at the highest level, and the Suns were considered legitimate contenders at the start of the season, but as we saw with the Lakers and the Westbrook trade, you need depth too. And that depth gives a coach more options when a team desperately needs to make changes.

Personally, I’m probably higher on Vogel than most, and I think Ischbia tied his hands. However, I still think he has to go. The one unforgivable sin a coach can make is to lose the locker room, and if the Suns players aren’t listening to him, it’s time to make a change. (We saw this with Flip Saunders). Removing a coach is usually easier than removing star players, and it shows the fans “hey, we know things aren’t right and look, we’re doing something.” But to me, Vogel isn’t the main problem - Ischbia’s roster construction is.

[Klomp]

It seems that everybody is choosing their favorite scapegoat, and my choice would be the owner, for removing all the important role players pushing a “Big Splash” Bradley Beal trade. I understand that it takes stars to win at the highest level, and the Suns were considered legitimate contenders at the start of the season, but as we saw with the Lakers and the Westbrook trade, you need depth too. And that depth gives a coach more options when a team desperately needs to make changes.

Personally, I’m probably higher on Vogel than most, and I think Ischbia tied his hands. However, I still think he has to go. The one unforgivable sin a coach can make is to lose the locker room, and if the Suns players aren’t listening to him, it’s time to make a change. (We saw this with Flip Saunders). Removing a coach is usually easier than removing star players, and it shows the fans “hey, we know things aren’t right and look, we’re doing something.” But to me, Vogel isn’t the main problem - Ischbia’s roster construction is.

The owner's impact is absolutely a big part of it, but I think those three guys could have better results under a different coach and with a few minor tweaks. However, Ishbia will likely be desperate and will go big splash-hunting again this offseason. I'm currently expecting a trade of Durant, since Booker is the home-grown guy and Beal can't be traded.

[spanishninja]

Suns mite win tonite, but the series is pretty much over.

May end up being 4-1 TWolves.

Narrator: "they didn't"

[dolphinatik]

Hats off to every Minnesota player for not taking any games off. Ant gets all the love but again Jaden McDaniels doing everything asked of him.

[shrink]

Two weeks ago, was there still the “We Suck! Blow it all up!” narrative?