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One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Masigond wrote:While getting easily annoyed by Kobe stans myself, I think the bigger nuisance right now are One_and_Done's blatant baiting attempts to get into a discussion about Kobe to make the same arguments about him again and again. Been there, done that. Too many times already.

Agree, I'd not consider Kobe for this list. But just leave him there and let the Kobe fans make the bad vote.

There's an other option for off the wall picks, and currently relatively few people have taken that option. I'm trying to list the best 9 options next to other. It's impossible to pretend Kobe is one of them. Honestly, he's not even close to the toughest cut.

dhsilv2 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Agree, I'd not consider Kobe for this list. But just leave him there and let the Kobe fans make the bad vote.

There's an other option for off the wall picks, and currently relatively few people have taken that option. I'm trying to list the best 9 options next to other. It's impossible to pretend Kobe is one of them. Honestly, he's not even close to the toughest cut.

I'd be happy to take Kobe over KD myself. And luka doesn't have the longevity.

iggymcfrack wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:Your Luka fetish is getting a little annoying. If it's about what they've already shown at peak, Kawhi is clearly better. If it's about what they're likely to do going forward, Wemby is clearly a stronger candidate to build around. In no way is Luka a serious candidate for anything here.

Wemby hasn't shown it yet though, and Kawhi lacks longevity to some degree despite peaking higher.

Luka hasn’t shown it either. He hasn’t completed a single season as a top 5 player in the league. Any list with him as a potential top 5 player over a 25 year period would be about what you expect him to potentially do in the future. In that way he’s just like Wemby, only way with a WAY lower ceiling.

dygaction wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Wemby hasn't shown it yet though, and Kawhi lacks longevity to some degree despite peaking higher.

Luka hasn’t shown it either. He hasn’t completed a single season as a top 5 player in the league. Any list with him as a potential top 5 player over a 25 year period would be about what you expect him to potentially do in the future. In that way he’s just like Wemby, only way with a WAY lower ceiling.

You cannot be hating Luka just because he is a Mavs. How on earth a 25 yr old player with 5x consecutive 1st team all-nba and 3times top 5 MVP voting (yes, I am counting this year) not having a single season as top 5 yet???

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:There's an other option for off the wall picks, and currently relatively few people have taken that option. I'm trying to list the best 9 options next to other. It's impossible to pretend Kobe is one of them. Honestly, he's not even close to the toughest cut.

I'd be happy to take Kobe over KD myself. And luka doesn't have the longevity.

Well the stats suggest KD is much better, and common sense does much the same. Kobe can't impact the game in the same way a near 7 foot KD can on both ends. Kobe was just more fortunare in his team mates and crappy era.

We're projecting we ger them for their whole career, so Luka is much the same as Jokic. We aren't limited to what they've already done.

dygaction wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Wemby hasn't shown it yet though, and Kawhi lacks longevity to some degree despite peaking higher.

Luka hasn’t shown it either. He hasn’t completed a single season as a top 5 player in the league. Any list with him as a potential top 5 player over a 25 year period would be about what you expect him to potentially do in the future. In that way he’s just like Wemby, only way with a WAY lower ceiling.

You cannot be hating Luka just because he is a Mavs. How on earth a 25 yr old player with 5x consecutive 1st team all-nba and 3times top 5 MVP voting (yes, I am counting this year) not having a single season as top 5 yet???

dhsilv2 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
I'd be happy to take Kobe over KD myself. And luka doesn't have the longevity.

Well the stats suggest KD is much better, and common sense does much the same. Kobe can't impact the game in the same way a near 7 foot KD can on both ends. Kobe was just more fortunare in his team mates and crappy era.

We're projecting we ger them for their whole career, so Luka is much the same as Jokic. We aren't limited to what they've already done.

Man i thought i was a kobe detractor, but there's more than box metrics. And for what it's worth their career VOPR and WS are nearly the same. I'm not going to spend the time to argue for something that doesn't matter, but this is just silly. THer stats aren't so apart we can't discuss. Kobe and KG..yeah that's beyond a discourse.

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%


KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Well the stats suggest KD is much better, and common sense does much the same. Kobe can't impact the game in the same way a near 7 foot KD can on both ends. Kobe was just more fortunare in his team mates and crappy era.

We're projecting we ger them for their whole career, so Luka is much the same as Jokic. We aren't limited to what they've already done.

Man i thought i was a kobe detractor, but there's more than box metrics. And for what it's worth their career VOPR and WS are nearly the same. I'm not going to spend the time to argue for something that doesn't matter, but this is just silly. THer stats aren't so apart we can't discuss. Kobe and KG..yeah that's beyond a discourse.

To summarise:

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%


KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Well the stats suggest KD is much better, and common sense does much the same. Kobe can't impact the game in the same way a near 7 foot KD can on both ends. Kobe was just more fortunare in his team mates and crappy era.

We're projecting we ger them for their whole career, so Luka is much the same as Jokic. We aren't limited to what they've already done.

Man i thought i was a kobe detractor, but there's more than box metrics. And for what it's worth their career VOPR and WS are nearly the same. I'm not going to spend the time to argue for something that doesn't matter, but this is just silly. THer stats aren't so apart we can't discuss. Kobe and KG..yeah that's beyond a discourse.

To summarise:

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%


KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

MavsDirk41 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:
Man i thought i was a kobe detractor, but there's more than box metrics. And for what it's worth their career VOPR and WS are nearly the same. I'm not going to spend the time to argue for something that doesn't matter, but this is just silly. THer stats aren't so apart we can't discuss. Kobe and KG..yeah that's beyond a discourse.

To summarise:

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%


KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

To summarize…..watch basketball and quit using metrics to rank players…. For example Stockton and Malone are both top 5 players all time in career VORP rankings. Even if somebody ranks Durant over Kobe they are both top 15 players of all time regardless of what you think.

One_and_Done wrote:

MavsDirk41 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:
To summarise:

To summarize…..watch basketball and quit using metrics to rank players…. For example Stockton and Malone are both top 5 players all time in career VORP rankings. Even if somebody ranks Durant over Kobe they are both top 15 players of all time regardless of what you think.

So you didn't read my post basically. I didn't even cite any metrics, unless any stats whatever are "metrics".

MavsDirk41 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

MavsDirk41 wrote:

To summarize…..watch basketball and quit using metrics to rank players…. For example Stockton and Malone are both top 5 players all time in career VORP rankings. Even if somebody ranks Durant over Kobe they are both top 15 players of all time regardless of what you think.

So you didn't read my post basically. I didn't even cite any metrics, unless any stats whatever are "metrics".

Stats/metrics is basically all you ever post on here when trying to debate players on here. Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players career are factors as well even if you dont agree. Kevin Durant offensively is goat worthy. The dude has no weaknesses offensively, he can do it all. But i take Kobe over him defensively. And Durant won 2 championships playing with Curry, Thompson, and Green. Probably the most stacked team ever in those finals wins in 17 and 18. Even if Shaq was the best Laker during the 3 peat i respect Kobes championships over Durants. Regardless they are both top 15 players of all time.

Swish1906 wrote:KG over someone like Dirk, who spanked his ass when KG had to „carry“ a franchise