Best 5 players over the past 25 years

[One_and_Done]

I would go with Shaq, Kobe, Curry, Duncan, Jokic. The reason I do not have LBJ which is the best player among them is cause then I would not build around him but he would build around himself. Curry, Jokic and Tim have great mentality and style of play to build around, and Kobe and Shaq are just plug in and play guys.

If only Lebron had the famous humility and selflessness of Kobe.

[msmoore66]

Well the stats suggest KD is much better, and common sense does much the same. Kobe can't impact the game in the same way a near 7 foot KD can on both ends. Kobe was just more fortunare in his team mates and crappy era.

We're projecting we ger them for their whole career, so Luka is much the same as Jokic. We aren't limited to what they've already done.

Man i thought i was a kobe detractor, but there's more than box metrics. And for what it's worth their career VOPR and WS are nearly the same. I'm not going to spend the time to argue for something that doesn't matter, but this is just silly. THer stats aren't so apart we can't discuss. Kobe and KG..yeah that's beyond a discourse.

To summarise:

As for Durant vs Kobe I don’t understand the argument for Kobe. Durant was a better scorer, better defender, and a better complementary piece who fit in more easily with others. His longevity is enough that any minor advantage Kobe has is negated.

Let’s just look at a peak to peak comparison to start with. Because KD has the consistency of a metronome (when he’s on the court), a number of different years can be advanced as his “peak”. But 2014 seems to have the strongest case. So let’s look at 2014 KD v.s 2008 Kobe (which is often advanced as Kobe’s best year).

KD: 41.8 pp 100, 9.6 rp 100, 7.2 ap 100, 123 Ortg, 104 Drtg, on an insane 635. TS%

Kobe: 36.5 pp 100, 8.1 rp 100, 6.9 ap 100, 115 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 576. TS%


KD is better in literally every, single category, and not by a small margin. But let’s be fair to them and look at a bigger, more representative sample.

Here’s KD from 2010 to 2023, a 13 year stretch if we exclude 2020.

RS per 100: 38.2, 10, 6.3, 120 Ortg, 106 Drtg, on 631. TS%

PS per 100: 36.9, 9.8, 5.3, 115 Ortg, 108 Drtg 598. TS%

Kobe from 2000 to 2013:

RS per 100: 37.1, 7.6, 6.9, 112 Ortg, 105 Drtg, TS% 556.

PS per 100: 35.3, 6.9, 6.5, 110 Ortg, 106 Drtg, TS% 543.

So again, KD is basically beating him in every single category except for a trivial defensive rating difference, which could just be noise given how close it is and the sample size. He’s scoring more, and scoring more on insane efficiency. Even his assists are similar, despite Kobe’s supposed passing advantage (which FYI isn’t much of an advantage if you don’t like passing). The difference in Ortg is insane. KD is just cooking him.

On the defensive end KD is almost 7 feet tall with crazy long arms, so he can to a limited extent provide rim protection and switch on to bigger guys, all of which was key to his time on the Warriors. KD fits so much better than Kobe in so many situations, needing a lower usage and complementing other guys. KD was also misused to some degree in OKC, with it now being apparent in hindsight that Westbrook was not an optimal co-star for KD (to put it lightly). He often played with poor spacing in OKC, and thrived anyway.

But let’s turn to the one thing Kobe supporters can maybe argue, which is longevity. I don’t buy this, because KD has had enough longevity to score almost 27K points despite playing through several seasons cut short by COVID and lock outs, so at that point I’d say he has “enough” longevity that unless the person he’s being compared to is a comparably good player longevity isn’t enough to move the needle. But then I’m not even sure we can criticise KD’s longevity too much. Kobe has basically 12-13 healthy-ish, prime type seasons. His last few seasons were negative value add, and the early part of his career is mostly not adding too much. If we took out those years Kobe actually only has 28k+ points, so barely different to KD (who isn’t done yet either).

But what of KD? He was healthy from 2010 to 2014. That’s 5 prime seasons right there. 2016 healthy. That’s 6. 2017 and 2018 he was being rested and was out by design basically, I count those as healthy seasons. KD is up to 8 prime seasons. 2019? He was healthy all the way to the finals, then had an injury. I don’t dock him for that because it’s absurd. It would be rewarding guys like Kobe for getting bounced out in the first round, before they had a chance to injure themselves. That’s 9 prime seasons. In my mind that’s enough to overcome Kobe’s longevity easily. But I also feel KD added good value from 2021 to 2023. In those 3 seasons some of the games he missed were for rest, or due to reasons having nothing to do with injury; if he and the team were keen on him playing more, he could have. He was also healthy for the playoffs in 2021 and 2023 when it mattered (which is what he was being rested for).

I just don’t see what Kobe’s argument over KD would be. KD is just flat out better.

Succinct summary that.

[zimpy27]

Giannis has the least votes, the guy who won a DPOY and MVP in the one season. That seems to be an overrated accomplishment.

[One_and_Done]

Giannis has the least votes, the guy who won a DPOY and MVP in the one season. That seems to be an overrated accomplishment.

I think it's more that anyone sensible enough to vote for Giannis is also sensible enough to see the strength of the other candidates. If I had excluded say Lebron and Duncan from consideration, then Giannis would likely be a top 5 vote getter I suspect.

[3toheadmelo]

Essentially we’re talking about 2000 onward:

1. LeBron
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Curry
5. Shaq

best one i've seen so far

[aliasxn]

Shaq, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan and Joker.

I think Luka will get to this level at some point.

Special mention to D Wade. His peak was kinda short because of injuries but he was an absolute beast.

[Swish1906]

KG over someone like Dirk, who spanked his ass when KG had to „carry“ a franchise

Dirk was a tough omission. I ultimately rate KG higher, and that's not a controversial opinion. On the PC board top 100 vote KG was way above Dirk.

KG was probably one of the best Robins of the past 25 years but for sure no one as franchise center piece go to guy

[One_and_Done]

KG over someone like Dirk, who spanked his ass when KG had to „carry“ a franchise

Dirk was a tough omission. I ultimately rate KG higher, and that's not a controversial opinion. On the PC board top 100 vote KG was way above Dirk.

KG was probably one of the best Robins of the past 25 years but for sure no one as franchise center piece go to guy

This is a silly take. KG was the best player on the 08 Celtics, and indeed in the whole NBA at that point since Duncan had slipped out of his prime by then.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Lebron
Luka
Jokic
Shaq
Duncan

[KingFox]

Literally the first 5 players in this poll. Easily.

[Swish1906]

Dirk was a tough omission. I ultimately rate KG higher, and that's not a controversial opinion. On the PC board top 100 vote KG was way above Dirk.

KG was probably one of the best Robins of the past 25 years but for sure no one as franchise center piece go to guy

This is a silly take. KG was the best player on the 08 Celtics, and indeed in the whole NBA at that point since Duncan had slipped out of his prime by then.

No he was not

[FarBeyondDriven]

lol Luka? wtf? How are you including Luka with top 20 players all-time that all have rings and MVPs? And people actually voted for him over KD and Giannis? This board is just chef's kiss sometimes.

[schnakenpopanz]

luka has not achieved anything notable beside individual numbers.
let him get mvp, finals appearance or title first before mentioning him with the others on this list.

[One_and_Done]

KG was probably one of the best Robins of the past 25 years but for sure no one as franchise center piece go to guy

This is a silly take. KG was the best player on the 08 Celtics, and indeed in the whole NBA at that point since Duncan had slipped out of his prime by then.

No he was not

MVP vote in 08: KG was 3rd, despite playing only 71 games due to an injury, and Pierce was tied for 14th. Ray Allen got zero MVP votes. Seems clear who the best player on the team was considered to be. KG's top five MVP showings are 1, 2, 2, 3 and 5. Pierce never got higher than 7th, and that's his only ever top 10 vote showing. Clearly he was not regarded in the same light as KG. The Celtics were 57-14 in games KG played and by all the metrics were substantially better when he was in the line-up.

It's widely agreed KG should have won MVP this year, or at least CP3 or Lebron. It was comical Kobe won. Voters at the time chaffed at voting for Lebron because the Cavs won only 45 games; in reality though the Cavs were hot garbage without Lebron. They went 0-7 in games Lebron missed. If he'd played all 82 games they'd have won 50, then the media narrative would have been different.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Not having Kobe as an option is an oversight.

I think there's very little argument that Kobe is better than any of those 9 guys. The stats don't even think it's close. There are at least half a dozen guys who I'd have listed over Kobe that missed the cut.

Oh my goodness with the stats.

[CobraCommander]

The first 5

lol it’s too easy

It’s just rings upon rings upon rings - only new people picking anyone other than the first 5

Anyone not picking those guys are delusional- how can you pick anyone over any of them ???

[CobraCommander]

The best PF ever - two of the best centers ever - the best small forward ever and 1st or second best player all time - the other guys are not as good as those 5

[One_and_Done]

Not having Kobe as an option is an oversight.

I think there's very little argument that Kobe is better than any of those 9 guys. The stats don't even think it's close. There are at least half a dozen guys who I'd have listed over Kobe that missed the cut.

Oh my goodness with the stats.

Pretty much any objective argument suggests the same, whether it's driven by basic stats, advanced stats, individual high end accolades, the observable impact they had on their team, etc. Kobe's only argument is he's more famous, which isn't an argument.

[MavsDirk41]

So you didn't read my post basically. I didn't even cite any metrics, unless any stats whatever are "metrics".

Stats/metrics is basically all you ever post on here when trying to debate players on here. Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players career are factors as well even if you dont agree. Kevin Durant offensively is goat worthy. The dude has no weaknesses offensively, he can do it all. But i take Kobe over him defensively. And Durant won 2 championships playing with Curry, Thompson, and Green. Probably the most stacked team ever in those finals wins in 17 and 18. Even if Shaq was the best Laker during the 3 peat i respect Kobes championships over Durants. Regardless they are both top 15 players of all time.

If you ever bothered to read my posts you'd know I basically never cite all in one metrics, etc.

More comically, you then tell me I should pay more attention to "Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players". This is amusing as I often cite these things; not as a be all and end all, but as an initial indicator of how a player was rated during their career. Kobe's accolades are more in line with a top 20 player than a top 15 one. He has exactly 1 MVP, and was never particularly close to winning a 2nd... and that MVP was widely mocked at the time as a lifetime achievement award, because people felt bad Kobe didn't have one yet.

If you "watched the players" you'd know that "player accomplishments" tend to be affected somewhat by context. Kobe's ringz are a good example. He had better context than others, so he has more rings. That's a team accomplishment. In terms of individual achievements, his ability to carry a team would be an example of that, and Kobe was very mediocre in that regard. From 99-07 he led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games Shaq missed, and I know that because I watched the games, just like I watched Kobe choke in the playoffs many times (e.g. 04, 00, 08, 10, 11, game 7 of 06, etc).

Whats comical is your ranking of certain players you just dont like. Durant has had some playoff dissapointments like every other superstar player has. Kobe won two championships as the best player on his team. Durant won 2 championships on maybe the most stacked team of all time, or at least since the 80s probably. Durant teamed up with Curry and his squad to win 2 rings. Secondly, looking at their playoff matchups, they are very simliar. Neither one dominated the other. But lets look at the talent they played with shall we?

Durant:
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Irving
Thompson
Green


Kobe:
Shaq
Gasol
Artest
Howard
Nash (old)
Odom

And Durant is currently playing with Booker and Beal. Durant has played with far more talent but won less….and yes, the level of talent a player plays with throughout their career matters.

[One_and_Done]

Stats/metrics is basically all you ever post on here when trying to debate players on here. Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players career are factors as well even if you dont agree. Kevin Durant offensively is goat worthy. The dude has no weaknesses offensively, he can do it all. But i take Kobe over him defensively. And Durant won 2 championships playing with Curry, Thompson, and Green. Probably the most stacked team ever in those finals wins in 17 and 18. Even if Shaq was the best Laker during the 3 peat i respect Kobes championships over Durants. Regardless they are both top 15 players of all time.

If you ever bothered to read my posts you'd know I basically never cite all in one metrics, etc.

More comically, you then tell me I should pay more attention to "Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players". This is amusing as I often cite these things; not as a be all and end all, but as an initial indicator of how a player was rated during their career. Kobe's accolades are more in line with a top 20 player than a top 15 one. He has exactly 1 MVP, and was never particularly close to winning a 2nd... and that MVP was widely mocked at the time as a lifetime achievement award, because people felt bad Kobe didn't have one yet.

If you "watched the players" you'd know that "player accomplishments" tend to be affected somewhat by context. Kobe's ringz are a good example. He had better context than others, so he has more rings. That's a team accomplishment. In terms of individual achievements, his ability to carry a team would be an example of that, and Kobe was very mediocre in that regard. From 99-07 he led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games Shaq missed, and I know that because I watched the games, just like I watched Kobe choke in the playoffs many times (e.g. 04, 00, 08, 10, 11, game 7 of 06, etc).

Whats comical is your ranking of certain players you just dont like. Durant has had some playoff dissapointments like every other superstar player has. Kobe won two championships as the best player on his team. Durant won 2 championships on maybe the most stacked team of all time, or at least since the 80s probably. Durant teamed up with Curry and his squad to win 2 rings. Secondly, looking at their playoff matchups, they are very simliar. Neither one dominated the other. But lets look at the talent they played with shall we?

Durant:
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Irving
Thompson
Green


Kobe:
Shaq
Gasol
Artest
Howard
Nash (old)
Odom

And Durant is currently playing with Booker and Beal. Durant has played with far more talent but won less….and yes, the level of talent a player plays with throughout their career matters.

My ranking is based on objective judgment of their impact. I don’t much care for Karl Malone as a human being, but as a basketball player I think he had a good case to be around top 15 all-time, and not much lower than that at worst. The one thing has nothing to do with the other in his case (in other cases, some players bad attitudes actually spill over onto the court and affect the team performance).

The sort of analysis you are doing is lazy and contextless, because it doesn’t look at the circumstances in which guys had their team-mates.

In the case of KD, it’s definitely true he had a stacked deck for his 2 titles. That was the GOAT team. But I don’t judge guys on rings, so why should that bother me? The only real value is how well you played to get the ring, not the ring itself. A title is more useful as a proof of concept, showing that your play style could actually succeed at the highest levels.

A more sensible analysis would be: KD had a poor fitting team around him in OKC, but once he got the necessary talent to win a title he went back to back, and was only stopped from a threepeat by injuries to his team (including and especially his own). On OKC the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the starting line-up after KD himself was usually Serge Ibaka. That’s horrific. The team also had various injuries that sunk different seasons. In 2012 their coach stupidly plays Perkins in the finals, Harden then leaves, 2013 injures, 2014 lose to a legendary Spurs team (with Ibaka missing the first 2 games of the series), 2015 injuries, 2016 lose in an epic 7 game series v.s a team that outmatched them. I could go on with post 2019 injuries too. KD has certainly had a lot of extenuating circumstances. What I’d focus on more though is how he has shown he is able to lift a team even absent a lot of support. When Westbrook was out for instance in 2014, KD had them at 25-11. In 21 when he played they were 23-12. In 2022 they were 36-19 in games KD played. In 2023 his teams were 34-13 in games he played. Even in 2024, with KD clearly past his prime and the team constantly injured, they were 44-31 when he played, well above 500.

Then you have Kobe, whose record without Shaq from 99-07 is 135-137. Kobe was not a floor raiser. He showed that repeatedly. Nor was he that great as a ceiling lifter compared to the cream of the crop like KD, certainly he fits next to other players less well than KD who is one of the GOATs of portability.

Your contextless attempt to compare them also ignores completely the quality of the leagues they were playing in. KD generally played in stronger leagues than Kobe did, as the modern game is stronger than it was 20 years ago. I could care less about KD losing in 2016 for instance, because he was supposed to lose to the 73 win Warriors. It was impressive he pushed it to 7 and that the Warriors needed a miracle to make it as close as it was. On the other end of the coin Kobe was on the team favoured to win the title at least 10 times, and he only came through 5 of those times. That’s a horrific record.