Best 5 players over the past 25 years

[TheHartBreakKid]

Op is a terrible poster and this is a terrible thread. Sorry not sorry

[TheHartBreakKid]

If you ever bothered to read my posts you'd know I basically never cite all in one metrics, etc.

More comically, you then tell me I should pay more attention to "Player accolades. Player accomplishments. And watching a players". This is amusing as I often cite these things; not as a be all and end all, but as an initial indicator of how a player was rated during their career. Kobe's accolades are more in line with a top 20 player than a top 15 one. He has exactly 1 MVP, and was never particularly close to winning a 2nd... and that MVP was widely mocked at the time as a lifetime achievement award, because people felt bad Kobe didn't have one yet.

If you "watched the players" you'd know that "player accomplishments" tend to be affected somewhat by context. Kobe's ringz are a good example. He had better context than others, so he has more rings. That's a team accomplishment. In terms of individual achievements, his ability to carry a team would be an example of that, and Kobe was very mediocre in that regard. From 99-07 he led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games Shaq missed, and I know that because I watched the games, just like I watched Kobe choke in the playoffs many times (e.g. 04, 00, 08, 10, 11, game 7 of 06, etc).

Whats comical is your ranking of certain players you just dont like. Durant has had some playoff dissapointments like every other superstar player has. Kobe won two championships as the best player on his team. Durant won 2 championships on maybe the most stacked team of all time, or at least since the 80s probably. Durant teamed up with Curry and his squad to win 2 rings. Secondly, looking at their playoff matchups, they are very simliar. Neither one dominated the other. But lets look at the talent they played with shall we?

Durant:
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Irving
Thompson
Green


Kobe:
Shaq
Gasol
Artest
Howard
Nash (old)
Odom

And Durant is currently playing with Booker and Beal. Durant has played with far more talent but won less….and yes, the level of talent a player plays with throughout their career matters.

My ranking is based on objective judgment of their impact. I don’t much care for Karl Malone as a human being, but as a basketball player I think he had a good case to be around top 15 all-time, and not much lower than that at worst. The one thing has nothing to do with the other in his case (in other cases, some players bad attitudes actually spill over onto the court and affect the team performance).

The sort of analysis you are doing is lazy and contextless, because it doesn’t look at the circumstances in which guys had their team-mates.

In the case of KD, it’s definitely true he had a stacked deck for his 2 titles. That was the GOAT team. But I don’t judge guys on rings, so why should that bother me? The only real value is how well you played to get the ring, not the ring itself. A title is more useful as a proof of concept, showing that your play style could actually succeed at the highest levels.

A more sensible analysis would be: KD had a poor fitting team around him in OKC, but once he got the necessary talent to win a title he went back to back, and was only stopped from a threepeat by injuries to his team (including and especially his own). On OKC the 2nd best 3pt shooter in the starting line-up after KD himself was usually Serge Ibaka. That’s horrific. The team also had various injuries that sunk different seasons. In 2012 their coach stupidly plays Perkins in the finals, Harden then leaves, 2013 injures, 2014 lose to a legendary Spurs team (with Ibaka missing the first 2 games of the series), 2015 injuries, 2016 lose in an epic 7 game series v.s a team that outmatched them. I could go on with post 2019 injuries too. KD has certainly had a lot of extenuating circumstances. What I’d focus on more though is how he has shown he is able to lift a team even absent a lot of support. When Westbrook was out for instance in 2014, KD had them at 25-11. In 21 when he played they were 23-12. In 2022 they were 36-19 in games KD played. In 2023 his teams were 34-13 in games he played. Even in 2024, with KD clearly past his prime and the team constantly injured, they were 44-31 when he played, well above 500.

Then you have Kobe, whose record without Shaq from 99-07 is 135-137. Kobe was not a floor raiser. He showed that repeatedly. Nor was he that great as a ceiling lifter compared to the cream of the crop like KD, certainly he fits next to other players less well than KD who is one of the GOATs of portability.

Your contextless attempt to compare them also ignores completely the quality of the leagues they were playing in. KD generally played in stronger leagues than Kobe did, as the modern game is stronger than it was 20 years ago. I could care less about KD losing in 2016 for instance, because he was supposed to lose to the 73 win Warriors. It was impressive he pushed it to 7 and that the Warriors needed a miracle to make it as close as it was. On the other end of the coin Kobe was on the team favoured to win the title at least 10 times, and he only came through 5 of those times. That’s a horrific record.

Do you think anyone actually read that?

[Stribor]

I would go with Shaq, Kobe, Curry, Duncan, Jokic. The reason I do not have LBJ which is the best player among them is cause then I would not build around him but he would build around himself. Curry, Jokic and Tim have great mentality and style of play to build around, and Kobe and Shaq are just plug in and play guys.

If only Lebron had the famous humility and selflessness of Kobe.

Well I sad Kobe is plug and play, not humbleness and selflessness. LBJ is the best player, but he commands what he wants too much and is not a plug-and-play guy also.

[Stribor]

Lebron
Luka
Jokic
Shaq
Duncan

I love Luka, but be realistic, He is a great player but it is not easy to build around him. If it were easy, Dallas would already have a ring, He was that good for the last 3-4 years, but he demands a lot of quality specialized players that are hard to find. The question is building around the player, and Luka is not easy to build around purely cause you have fewer options for team construction.

[One_and_Done]

I would go with Shaq, Kobe, Curry, Duncan, Jokic. The reason I do not have LBJ which is the best player among them is cause then I would not build around him but he would build around himself. Curry, Jokic and Tim have great mentality and style of play to build around, and Kobe and Shaq are just plug in and play guys.

If only Lebron had the famous humility and selflessness of Kobe.

Well I sad Kobe is plug and play, not humbleness and selflessness. LBJ is the best player, but he commands what he wants too much and is not a plug-and-play guy also.

Kobe is pretty much the opposite of a "fits anywhere" sort of guy.

[Stribor]

If only Lebron had the famous humility and selflessness of Kobe.

Well I sad Kobe is plug and play, not humbleness and selflessness. LBJ is the best player, but he commands what he wants too much and is not a plug-and-play guy also.

Kobe is pretty much the opposite of a "fits anywhere" sort of guy.

I do agree that his "mamba" mentality could be a problem. I can see easily KD in front of him, conceptually, but KD's record does not show that it is as easy to build around him as I would expect just by watching his game. Kobe does not have this history since he spent all his life in one club, so I can "conceptualize" him more freely.

[One_and_Done]

Well I sad Kobe is plug and play, not humbleness and selflessness. LBJ is the best player, but he commands what he wants too much and is not a plug-and-play guy also.

Kobe is pretty much the opposite of a "fits anywhere" sort of guy.

I do agree that his "mamba" mentality could be a problem. I can see easily KD in front of him, conceptually, but KD's record does not show that it is as easy to build around him as I would expect just by watching his game. Kobe does not have this history since he spent all his life in one club, so I can "conceptualize" him more freely.

Kobe forced his way to LA in the draft with threats of playing overseas, threatened to leave if they didn't trade Shaq, and then when trading Shaq backfired he demanded a trade (which only didn't happen because Kobe vetoed it, because he thought the team trading for him was giving up too much). So far, not great for "being able to fit anywhere". Kobe then refused to adjust his game to play the way Mike D wanted, and drove Dwight out of town, before turning the Lakers into a circus for his final years. If Kobe had been drafted by Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins.

KD for example "conceptually" fits anywhere because his game is the most portable ever maybe. Kobe's play style does not, and we saw that unfold during his career. Today it would be worse, as his 3 ball is mediocre.

[xinxin]

Do you think anyone actually read that?

must be exhausting to hate a player that much.. a dead one at that...

[TheHartBreakKid]

The things people do for attention

[Gusto1903]

I'm missing kobe and Nowitzki in the options.

[iggymcfrack]

Wemby hasn't shown it yet though, and Kawhi lacks longevity to some degree despite peaking higher.

Luka hasn’t shown it either. He hasn’t completed a single season as a top 5 player in the league. Any list with him as a potential top 5 player over a 25 year period would be about what you expect him to potentially do in the future. In that way he’s just like Wemby, only way with a WAY lower ceiling.

How in the world is Luka not a top 5 player in the league? Its Joker, Embiid, Giannis, Luka, and SGA or Tatum so there are your top 6 players

This season, he's been top 5 so far. I'm saying that for a completed season that has finished a regular season and postseason, Luka was never top 5. The highest he's ever ranked in the POY project is 7th.

[Triple M]

If we are building around the best players, then shouldn't we look at the players that proven they can win multiple ways, e.g LeBron won in 3 different location.

Duncan won 5 with 3 iterations of the Spurs
99 to 03 felt distinct from 05 to 07 and their 13 and 14 teams

Shaq won 4 in 2 locations

Kobe won 5 on two distinct Laker teams

Curry won 4

Why wouldn't i take the guys that actually proved it time and again. I dont see any reasonable argument against those 5 players

[One_and_Done]

If we are building around the best players, then shouldn't we look at the players that proven they can win multiple ways, e.g LeBron won in 3 different location.

Duncan won 5 with 3 iterations of the Spurs
99 to 03 felt distinct from 05 to 07 and their 13 and 14 teams

Shaq won 4 in 2 locations

Kobe won 5 on two distinct Laker teams

Curry won 4

Why wouldn't i take the guys that actually proved it time and again. I dont see any reasonable argument against those 5 players

How about the fact that rings are a team achievement. The context is what matters. Kobe has no business being mentioned with those other 4.

[Stribor]

Kobe is pretty much the opposite of a "fits anywhere" sort of guy.

I do agree that his "mamba" mentality could be a problem. I can see easily KD in front of him, conceptually, but KD's record does not show that it is as easy to build around him as I would expect just by watching his game. Kobe does not have this history since he spent all his life in one club, so I can "conceptualize" him more freely.

Kobe forced his way to LA in the draft with threats of playing overseas, threatened to leave if they didn't trade Shaq, and then when trading Shaq backfired he demanded a trade (which only didn't happen because Kobe vetoed it, because he thought the team trading for him was giving up too much). So far, not great for "being able to fit anywhere". Kobe then refused to adjust his game to play the way Mike D wanted, and drove Dwight out of town, before turning the Lakers into a circus for his final years. If Kobe had been drafted by Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins.

KD for example "conceptually" fits anywhere because his game is the most portable ever maybe. Kobe's play style does not, and we saw that unfold during his career. Today it would be worse, as his 3 ball is mediocre.

I do not really understand why you think his style is not portable. Nor how we could see it during his career, since he spent all his career in the same place. He liked solo, he played good enough defense. These are basically plug-and-play characteristics.

[One_and_Done]

I do agree that his "mamba" mentality could be a problem. I can see easily KD in front of him, conceptually, but KD's record does not show that it is as easy to build around him as I would expect just by watching his game. Kobe does not have this history since he spent all his life in one club, so I can "conceptualize" him more freely.

Kobe forced his way to LA in the draft with threats of playing overseas, threatened to leave if they didn't trade Shaq, and then when trading Shaq backfired he demanded a trade (which only didn't happen because Kobe vetoed it, because he thought the team trading for him was giving up too much). So far, not great for "being able to fit anywhere". Kobe then refused to adjust his game to play the way Mike D wanted, and drove Dwight out of town, before turning the Lakers into a circus for his final years. If Kobe had been drafted by Charlotte we'd think of him more like Dominique Wilkins.

KD for example "conceptually" fits anywhere because his game is the most portable ever maybe. Kobe's play style does not, and we saw that unfold during his career. Today it would be worse, as his 3 ball is mediocre.

I do not really understand why you think his style is not portable. Nor how we could see it during his career, since he spent all his career in the same place. He liked solo, he played good enough defense. These are basically plug-and-play characteristics.

He spent all his career on the same team, but with different coaches. He resented Phil telling him to share the ball more, and that was with the triangle which still gives a tonne of scope to iso alot. You can imagine it would be worse with a modern coach, except we don't need to imagine because he refused to be less ball dominant under Mike D. He shot his team out of multiple series with his poor team play.

Kobe was a ball dominant guard who liked to iso alot, and who had a mediocre 3pt shot which he rarely took off ball/off the catch. In the era he played it was less of an issue than it would be today.

His D was also notoriously overrated.

[Hatrick Ewing]

Jordan
Bryant
Pierce
Garnett
Duncan

[One_and_Done]

Jordan
Bryant
Pierce
Garnett
Duncan

I assume you're joking with Pierce. Did you forget how to type Lebron and Shaq?

[Hatrick Ewing]

Jordan
Bryant
Pierce
Garnett
Duncan

I assume you're joking with Pierce. Did you forget how to type Lebron and Shaq?

Shaq had a way shorter prime than Pierce and that's a fact.

[MarcusBrody]

Jordan
Bryant
Pierce
Garnett
Duncan

I assume you're joking with Pierce. Did you forget how to type Lebron and Shaq?

Shaq had a way shorter prime than Pierce and that's a fact.

Paul Pierce's career WS/48 was .158. Shaq first surpassed that mark in 1993, his rookie year. He last surpassed it in 2011, his final season. That's 16 seasons including 14 straight at the beginning of Shaq's career where he was higher than Pierce's career average. Plus almost 20 years between the first and last time he had a season toping Pierce's average.

Shaq's career average WS/48 was .208. Pierce didn't have one season that hit that mark in his entire career.

So while I'm not sure I disagree that Pierce didn't have a longer prime, that's strictly because Shaq peaked much higher. Shaq had a substantially longer period of being a better player than Paul Pierce.

[One_and_Done]

Jordan
Bryant
Pierce
Garnett
Duncan

I assume you're joking with Pierce. Did you forget how to type Lebron and Shaq?

Shaq had a way shorter prime than Pierce and that's a fact.

Pierce was voteď in the top 10 for MVP once in his whole career, when he was 7th. Shaq was a perennial MVP candidate. They were not the same.