No free pass for Lebron

[KyRo23]

Funny thing is I don’t even really disagree with LeBron stans on a lot of things. I’ve said he’s the best basketball player ever (although Jokic might actually be better now). I don’t think MJ has some flawless career record. I do think the Wizards era is a stain on his career. I do think 2016 may be the best individual championship

All that stuff is fine. But at the end of the day, I can’t stand the anticompetitive path his career took, half of his titles being a mercenary on another guys team, coach killing, always hunting for MVP caliber prime teammates at every stop and abandoning them the second they decline.

His personal narrative is great with crazy longevity but his career narrative, to me, is pretty mediocre.

I’ll take a ring like Giannis or Jokic or even Curry where you built a team over a handful of mercenary rings. If Jokic wins one this year I’ll put his ring collection above LeBrons all day. And MJ has 6 of those rings

Player vote this year has 45% Jordan and 42% have LeBron as the GOAT. Y’all love when players call Jordan the GOAT… give it another few years and you’ll be clutching your pearls

[picko]

Given what 39 year olds have traditionally done in the NBA - typically **** all - there isn't a great deal that LeBron can do in his remaining years to hurt his legacy. The only things that I think could hurt his legacy would be something absurd like going Ron Artest on a fan, a huge PED controversy or finding himself in an OJ style situation.

But getting swept isn't going to make a lick of different to an incredible career. Nobody cares that Jordan was terrible on the Wizards. Nobody cares that Kareem was terrible at the end. And nobody cares that Shaq and Kobe were beyond useless in their final couple of seasons. Nor should they. Everybody gets old.

[AlexanderRight]

Funny thing is I don’t even really disagree with LeBron stans on a lot of things. I’ve said he’s the best basketball player ever (although Jokic might actually be better now). I don’t think MJ has some flawless career record. I do think the Wizards era is a stain on his career. I do think 2016 may be the best individual championship

All that stuff is fine. But at the end of the day, I can’t stand the anticompetitive path his career took, half of his titles being a mercenary on another guys team, coach killing, always hunting for MVP caliber prime teammates at every stop and abandoning them the second they decline.

His personal narrative is great with crazy longevity but his career narrative, to me, is pretty mediocre.

I’ll take a ring like Giannis or Jokic or even Curry where you built a team over a handful of mercenary rings. If Jokic wins one this year I’ll put his ring collection above LeBrons all day. And MJ has 6 of those rings

Player vote this year has 45% Jordan and 42% have LeBron as the GOAT. Y’all love when players call Jordan the GOAT… give it another few years and you’ll be clutching your pearls

You mean the same poll with "anonymous votes" where Kobe is #3, Paul Pierce got a vote as GOAT and Kareem didn't get a single one... Yeah, real riveting stuff.

[KyRo23]

Player vote this year has 45% Jordan and 42% have LeBron as the GOAT. Y’all love when players call Jordan the GOAT… give it another few years and you’ll be clutching your pearls

You mean the same poll with "anonymous votes" that has Paul Pierce ahead of Kareem? Yeah, real riveting stuff...

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

[RHODEY]

Player vote this year has 45% Jordan and 42% have LeBron as the GOAT. Y’all love when players call Jordan the GOAT… give it another few years and you’ll be clutching your pearls

You mean the same poll with "anonymous votes" where Kobe is #3, Paul Pierce got a vote as GOAT and Kareem didn't get a single one... Yeah, real riveting stuff.

[AlexanderRight]

Player vote this year has 45% Jordan and 42% have LeBron as the GOAT. Y’all love when players call Jordan the GOAT… give it another few years and you’ll be clutching your pearls

You mean the same poll with "anonymous votes" that has Paul Pierce ahead of Kareem? Yeah, real riveting stuff...

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

[KyRo23]

You mean the same poll with "anonymous votes" that has Paul Pierce ahead of Kareem? Yeah, real riveting stuff...

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

[ShannonWright]

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

When it was 58 to 33 the survey was legit. Now that it's 45 to 42 then all of a sudden it's questionable. Jordan fans/Lebron haters SMH.

[MavsDirk41]

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

You saying that nobody thinks Kareem is the goat or implying that he shouldn’t be in the conversation shows your age kiddo

[AlexanderRight]

You do realize that was probably a singular vote right? Yeah lets throw the whole thing because one dude did something

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

If you wanna go by players opinions, don't go by just active players and go by those who publicly stand by their pick. An anonymous poll of players only playing now? Like really...

[KyRo23]

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

You saying that nobody thinks Kareem is the goat or implying that he shouldn’t be in the conversation shows your age kiddo

I obviously don't think not one person has Kareem as the GOAT, old head

In player polls like this, that everyone LOVES to bring up which players call MJ the GOAT, you're not going to get Kareem votes, I'm sorry.

I'm also not saying Kareem shouldn't be in the convo. He's top 3... but again when you have ONE choice of who is the GOAT, the results will probably not show it. Kiddo find your glasses, sir

[KyRo23]

The fact that Kareem didn't get a single vote out of "133 anonymous players" but Steph, Kobe, and Paul Pierce got votes completely invalidates that poll and you know it.

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

If you wanna go by players opinions, don't go by just active players and go by those who have who publicly stand by their pick. An anonymous poll of players only playing now? Like really...

Only 3 Kareem votes? Wow, find a new source kiddo.

Kidding obviously. I'd love to see the dates for all of these votes. As of now, just looking at that you have no context at all. Who even knows if it is accurate. I have seen multiple people on that list say their GOAT was different people at different times

[MavsDirk41]

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

You saying that nobody thinks Kareem is the goat or implying that he shouldn’t be in the conversation shows your age kiddo

I obviously don't think not one person has Kareem as the GOAT, old head

In player polls like this, that everyone LOVES to bring up which players call MJ the GOAT, you're not going to get Kareem votes, I'm sorry.

I'm also not saying Kareem shouldn't be in the convo. He's top 3... but again when you have ONE choice of who is the GOAT, the results will probably not show it. Kiddo find your glasses, sir

Guys like Kareem, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt are forgotten today but its ok, 30 years or so from now so will your guy because other players will be the new topic. I have no clue how old you are but Kareem has 6 rings, 6 mvps, won a league mvp when he was older than both Jordan and James, was the most acclaimed college player with his accomplishments, and has probably the most iconic shot in nba history. Yea the dude should be mentioned.

[AlexanderRight]

It's no secret that Kobe is a lot of players favorite player, it really isn't that odd to me that he got a few votes. No one is going to waste their vote on Kareem in a poll like this, because no one thinks he's the GOAT...

People always argue LeBron and MJ as the GOAT for a reason, so you got all of those votes... then the other few picked their favorite player. Seems to make perfect sense

If you wanna go by players opinions, don't go by just active players and go by those who have who publicly stand by their pick. An anonymous poll of players only playing now? Like really...

Only 3 Kareem votes? Wow, find a new source kiddo.

Kidding obviously. I'd love to see the dates for all of these votes. As of now, just looking at that you have no context at all. Who even knows if it is accurate. I have seen multiple people on that list say their GOAT was different people at different times

Watch on YouTube

[KyRo23]

You saying that nobody thinks Kareem is the goat or implying that he shouldn’t be in the conversation shows your age kiddo

I obviously don't think not one person has Kareem as the GOAT, old head

In player polls like this, that everyone LOVES to bring up which players call MJ the GOAT, you're not going to get Kareem votes, I'm sorry.

I'm also not saying Kareem shouldn't be in the convo. He's top 3... but again when you have ONE choice of who is the GOAT, the results will probably not show it. Kiddo find your glasses, sir

Guys like Kareem, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt are forgotten today but its ok, 30 years or so from now so will your guy because other players will be the new topic. I have no clue how old you are but Kareem has 6 rings, 6 mvps, won a league mvp when he was older than both Jordan and James, was the most acclaimed college player with his accomplishments, and has probably the most iconic shot in nba history. Yea the dude should be mentioned.

They won't be forgotten. I feel Kareem still gets his due and is widely considered top 3 all time. I've actually noticed the last 2 years especially he has been getting his flowers. This may just not be the poll for him. I'm not even standing by that poll as gospel. The only reason I posted it was to make a point of the player polls that happen every year. If I remember correctly, last year a lot of people made a big deal of the MJ/LeBron difference

[MavsDirk41]

I obviously don't think not one person has Kareem as the GOAT, old head

In player polls like this, that everyone LOVES to bring up which players call MJ the GOAT, you're not going to get Kareem votes, I'm sorry.

I'm also not saying Kareem shouldn't be in the convo. He's top 3... but again when you have ONE choice of who is the GOAT, the results will probably not show it. Kiddo find your glasses, sir

Guys like Kareem, Russell, Oscar, and Wilt are forgotten today but its ok, 30 years or so from now so will your guy because other players will be the new topic. I have no clue how old you are but Kareem has 6 rings, 6 mvps, won a league mvp when he was older than both Jordan and James, was the most acclaimed college player with his accomplishments, and has probably the most iconic shot in nba history. Yea the dude should be mentioned.

They won't be forgotten. I feel Kareem still gets his due and is widely considered top 3 all time. I've actually noticed the last 2 years especially he has been getting his flowers. This may just not be the poll for him. I'm not even standing by that poll as gospel. The only reason I posted it was to make a point of the player polls that happen every year. If I remember correctly, last year a lot of people made a big deal of the MJ/LeBron difference

The media has been pushing this Jordan/James goat narrative cause James broke Kareems scoring record and he is old and just about done. If they talk about it 24/7 it will increase their ratings and bring interest to the sport. They werent talking about Kareem before James broke the scoring record. I just find it hilarious that people disagree on here and nobody is changing anybody’s mind on the matter.

Player polls always have Kobe in the goat conversation and you get on here and the guy barely makes the top 15. He is by far the most loved or most disrespected player on here depending on whos post you read or what poll you see.

[prophet_of_rage]

Exactly. Jordan’s last title was in 1998 and Lebron’s first season was in 2003, only five years later. That’s like saying it was a wholly different league in 2019 than it is today.

Did max contracts exist in Jordan's time?
Zone defences?
International players
Analytics?
Freedom of movement?
The outside/in game?
The 3 point barrage?
Was there no expansion in Jordan's time?
Massive salary caps?
Social media?

I know you have to pretend the leagues are the same to discount why Jordan trumps Lebron but you can't use the same criteria to say Russell trumps Jordan.

I'm just saying it's a false narrative.

You can just say Jordan is the GOAT because NBC labeled him the GOAT. I would agree with you on that.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

The push back against Russell's rings isn't the playstyle of that era. It's the extremely low number of teams which increased his chances of winning and the 12 HOFers he played with.

Your arguments against the 90s are about that era's playstyle which is fine when comparing eras but inefficient when comparing individual players. MJ excelled in the era he came up up in better than LBJ did in his era. If you wanna tell yourself that MJ wouldn't have adapted to today's game had he played now, sure keep knocking yourself out, but if your GOAT argument is just another hypothetical that you can't prove, then you've already lost.

MJ and Lebron would be mega stars in any era. Compare what they actually did. Not "what woulda happened if this, this n that, and this was different."

It isn't just playstyle. You conveniently ignore the max contracts and influx of European players as well as the expansion in the 90s. That isn't playstyle. That is league quality. Jordan played in a bigger better league than Russell. James played in a bigger better league than Jordan.

I'm not applying hypothetically. I'm applying context. See the 6/6 Jordan argument has to discount everything that came before it and assume that the league isbexactlynthe same after to work.

Jordan himself said you can't compare eras and yet here his fans go using criteria tailored to Jordan. The argument is silly and stupid to protect a fictitious title.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[Heej]

Given what 39 year olds have traditionally done in the NBA - typically **** all - there isn't a great deal that LeBron can do in his remaining years to hurt his legacy. The only things that I think could hurt his legacy would be something absurd like going Ron Artest on a fan, a huge PED controversy or finding himself in an OJ style situation.

But getting swept isn't going to make a lick of different to an incredible career. Nobody cares that Jordan was terrible on the Wizards. Nobody cares that Kareem was terrible at the end. And nobody cares that Shaq and Kobe were beyond useless in their final couple of seasons. Nor should they. Everybody gets old.

The fact that LeBron is held to a higher standard than their supposed GOATs is telling of what they really think deep down inside.

[prophet_of_rage]

Do you know why? GOAT isn't a real thing. It's an opinion and opinions can change.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[AlexanderRight]

Did max contracts exist in Jordan's time?
Zone defences?
International players
Analytics?
Freedom of movement?
The outside/in game?
The 3 point barrage?
Was there no expansion in Jordan's time?
Massive salary caps?
Social media?

I know you have to pretend the leagues are the same to discount why Jordan trumps Lebron but you can't use the same criteria to say Russell trumps Jordan.

I'm just saying it's a false narrative.

You can just say Jordan is the GOAT because NBC labeled him the GOAT. I would agree with you on that.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

The push back against Russell's rings isn't the playstyle of that era. It's the extremely low number of teams which increased his chances of winning and the 12 HOFers he played with.

Your arguments against the 90s are about that era's playstyle which is fine when comparing eras but inefficient when comparing individual players. MJ excelled in the era he came up up in better than LBJ did in his era. If you wanna tell yourself that MJ wouldn't have adapted to today's game had he played now, sure keep knocking yourself out, but if your GOAT argument is just another hypothetical that you can't prove, then you've already lost.

MJ and Lebron would be mega stars in any era. Compare what they actually did. Not "what woulda happened if this, this n that, and this was different."

It isn't just playstyle. You conveniently ignore the max contracts and influx of European players as well as the expansion in the 90s. That isn't playstyle. That is league quality. Jordan played in a bigger better league than Russell. James played in a bigger better league than Jordan.

I'm not applying hypothetically. I'm applying context. See the 6/6 Jordan argument has to discount everything that came before it and assume that the league isbexactlynthe same after to work.

Jordan himself said you can't compare eras and yet here his fans go using criteria tailored to Jordan. The argument is silly and stupid to protect a fictitious title.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

That's the thing though. It's not just 6/6.

MJ still has 2 more rings, 2 more Finals MVPs, 1 more MVP, 4 more All D 1st Teams, 1 more DPOY, 3 more Steals Titles, and 9 more Scoring Titles. That's a HOF career worth of accolades on it's own.

Better PPG, BPG, SPG, TOPG, and FT%. That's 5/8 major traditional basketball stats. Not to mention better career PER, Win Shares Per 48, Box Plus Minus, and VORP for all the new age analytics geeks.

Not to mention that 17 times a teammate made the All Star team with Lebron. MJ only got that 6 times.

These are all facts. Even if one conceded that Lebron "played in a bigger better league" which is a whole other debate in itself, you're gonna need more than that to counter these facts. More than just Lebron playing a long time.