Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[Ambrose]

There's been 23 championship teams this decade, they're probably in the middle in the 10-12 range. That's not really one of the best. The third best team would be one of the best. They're not the third best team this century.

Weird. Because someone who has put a lot more effort into analyzing the game than you have said they are exactly the 3rd best team of the century, and 7th best EVER.

10-12 of the last 23 years

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

I don't really care about whatever weird nerd advanced stats they used to justify it, you probably wouldn't either if they had in fact argued against them being one of the best teams this century. They had literally no one scoring 17 ppg, that's unheard of. They aren't beating the best teams this century.

I watched the 2014 Spurs play. They were **** amazing. Probably the best pure team I've ever watched in my life. They weren't the most talented, but no one I've seen played better team basketball. I didn't need advanced stats to know that. But fortunately for me, they agree with my observation.

Not understanding how good they were doesn't make you right, it makes you uneducated. If you want anyone to take you seriously, try to use an argument that isn't "they didn't have anyone with high ppg".

[Duke4life831]

love Jokic and everything about his game (and MJ is my undisputed GOAT) but people need to calm down man.. acting like Nuggets won 4 straight titles or something. there have been SO MANY amazing players since MJ retired to this day, this eagerness to crown someone the best constantly is tiresome personally. and yeah peak Lebron as a player is levels ahead too.

I get this. But let’s also put into perspective what Jokic is currently doing. He’s going to win his 3rd MVP (in 4 years). LeBron is the only other guy since MJ to do that. The last 4 years he’s put up some of the best individual regular seasons we’ve ever seen statistically. And his stats in the playoffs make him look even better and more dominant.

Individually speaking, this 4 year run is as good if not better than any 4 year run by LeBron.

And the fact that you can even debate that, makes this thread a pretty legit discussion.

[Doctor MJ]

I agree with the last part that Denver has been overhyped because they haven't beaten a great team except they own 38-39 year old Lebron and AD, but I do not agree that the 2014 Spurs were better than Denver. Based off what? The player with the highest ppg that season was Tony Parker at 16.7 ppg. Denver's 3rd best Scorer MPJ scored 16 ppg. Yes the Spurs had a good defense but I'll take prime Jokic Murray MPJ and Gordon over 38 year old Duncan 23 year old Kawhi and Parker and Ginobili.

Just based on watching the 2 teams play. The 2014 spurs played beautiful basketball and were incredibly balanced. I dont view the Nuggets as one of the best teams ive seen this century. I think we happen to be in a weird era where there arent many established teams. Those spurs took down prime Russ/MVP KD and the heatles. It didnt matter if parker was their highest scorer. Thats how good they were. I just don't see any reasoning that would suggest Denver has shown anything as impressive, and I don't think they are playing better basketball.

Nobody calls the 2014 Spurs one of the best teams this century but you. The 2011 Mavs took down the same teams you mentioned and swept 2x defending champ Lakers, but nobody calls them one of the best teams this century either. Maybe Lebron and KD are just overhyped and often came up small in the playoffs when faced with good defenses.

I also do not view Nuggets as one of the best teams this century either. They didn't beat anyone above a 4 seed last year. To me the best teams were 2017-2019 Warriors it was just unfair they added KD to a championship team. But KD outside of the Warriors has won nothing. Credit where credit is due to 2000-2002 Lakers the only team to threepeat this century. These are the best teams not Nuggets or Spurs.

So I'll just take the opportunity to say:

The 2014 Spurs were absolutely incredible, and the only reason I'd tend to be skeptical about their ability to be dominant against more recent teams is the further strategic evolution of the league. Concerns pertaining to lack of top tier star power though, I don't think are well-founded. That Spurs team was a major step up over any of the other Spur champions despite the fact their top players were out of prime.

Just a combination of really smart players who know how to play with each other after years and years together, along with strategy that was cutting edge at the time.

Much respect to the 2011 Mavs as well, but I would consider the 2014 Spurs to be the strongest champ the league had seen in a good while. Definitely ahead of any Heatle team, for example.

Now all of that is just my opinion, but to be clear, if you weren't aware of the veneration of the 2014 Spurs as one of the truly special champions in recent history, well, be aware of it. It's not just one or two crazy posters. It's a phenomenon.

[ChipotleWest]

If the 2014 Spurs faced the early 2000 Spurs teams that won championships would they win? Old Duncan vs Prime Duncan? Kawhi was 23 and was not the Kawhi who lead the Raptors to a championship. It just goes to show those Spurs weren't really that great that they gave him the Finals MVP. 28 year old Duncan or 38 year old Duncan?

It's sort of a weird debate but I'm being told Spurs are one of the best teams this century, I'm not even sure they were the best Spurs team this century.

[One_and_Done]

Not even close. Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, and Curry for starters are all better.

[PierceFan4ever]

His current stretch right now is better than Lebron ever was. Only Lakers shaq was imo better than this version of peak Jokic the last 25 years.

[dolphinatik]

Jokic is playing amazing right now. He wouldnt be what he is in yesterdays league. Every big man would be in foul trouble by 1/2 because you would go at them every play until they get benched. Every team had a few they coudl throw at you and it would be battles to see which big would get in foul trouble first. Jokic doesnt have those worries, someone is not posting him up every time down the floor. This era teams got rid of all their bigs and Joker is flourishing. Sure he is skilled but he doesnt have Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, Yao, Duncan wearing him down during the game either. He is pretty amazing, Im not putting him as the best.

[Ssj16]

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

Clippers with PG and Kawhi, Suns with Booker and KD, last year's Lakers are as good if not better than the OKC team with a young KD, Westbrook and Harden.

Hard disagree. What have the clippers accomplished exactly?

Re the Suns.....tell me you didn't watch them play without telling me you didn't watch them play.

So you think last year's Lakers, the 7 seed, who beat Memphis and a warriors team who struggled with the kings in round 1, were better than the 2012 thunder, who had been to the conference finals the previous year and took out the 2012 Spurs in the WCF (a spurs team that was tied for best record in the league, was accomplished, had home court and made the next 2 finals)? I'm sorry I don't see that.

And what did OKC do when they made the finals that year?

Your comparing a young pup team to a LA Clipper team that has Kawhi who came off a championship run, a more mature KD who would has much more experience in bigger moments and you're also stating that the Laker who have the arguable GOAT who won a championship a couple years prior with AD (top 15 playoff player) are all worst than the OKC or Detroit team?

I can't prove you wrong but you still haven't made a compelling argument to state that Denver hasn't faced stiff competition.

The facts are Jokic has some of the great metrics ever in the post season. He's taken down so many champions on his way to a ring. He's playing with players who don't make the all star team.

You can keep moving the goal post and come up with hypotheticals but all of those points are facts. And as great as Lebron is, he has always had 1-2 all stars for each of his championship runs.

[mcmurphy]

I'm a huge Jokic fan, but LeBron is the best player I've seen since MJ. A prime LeBron could probably get this season's Pistons to the playoffs.

Yes, in the Est...

Jokic the Nuggets without Murray and Mpj with Austin Rivers to the playoffs in the West

[Ssj16]

Not even close. Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, and Curry for starters are all better.

Hahahahaha. Please look at who's leading the all time playoff PER list: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

[Ssj16]

If Nuggets win this year, I can't wait for the excuse merchants to come out of the wood work.

[ChipotleWest]

Hard disagree. What have the clippers accomplished exactly?

It'd be nice if one time outside the bubble they could see how far they can get with Kawhi, he's gotten injured every single season but the bubble. In 2021 they probably beat the Suns in the WCF and I could see them beating the Bucks in the Finals. But it's all hypothetical because Kawhi cannot stay healthy. It's not that they're just choking in the playoffs though.

[Doctor MJ]

If the 2014 Spurs faced the early 2000 Spurs teams that won championships would they win? Old Duncan vs Prime Duncan? Kawhi was 23 and was not the Kawhi who lead the Raptors to a championship. It just goes to show those Spurs weren't really that great that they gave him the Finals MVP. 28 year old Duncan or 38 year old Duncan?

It's sort of a weird debate but I'm being told Spurs are one of the best teams this century, I'm not even sure they were the best Spurs team this century.

Yes they would, but I understand why this seems impossible to you.

The short answer is that the '90s & '00s Spurs won titles despite not choosing a great offensive strategy. They got away with it because their defense was great, but their offense actually improved as their top players aged because they focused on a perimeter-oriented scheme rather than continuing to assume that Duncan was their proper offensive foundation.

[dhsilv2]

If the 2014 Spurs faced the early 2000 Spurs teams that won championships would they win? Old Duncan vs Prime Duncan? Kawhi was 23 and was not the Kawhi who lead the Raptors to a championship. It just goes to show those Spurs weren't really that great that they gave him the Finals MVP. 28 year old Duncan or 38 year old Duncan?

It's sort of a weird debate but I'm being told Spurs are one of the best teams this century, I'm not even sure they were the best Spurs team this century.

Danny Green was awesome on that 2014 spurs. Parker and Manu...maybe not better. But Diaw was better than say Horry. That 2014 team was DEEP and talented everywhere. THat's far more important than top end talent more often than not. People really underrate that.

[ChipotleWest]

If the 2014 Spurs faced the early 2000 Spurs teams that won championships would they win? Old Duncan vs Prime Duncan? Kawhi was 23 and was not the Kawhi who lead the Raptors to a championship. It just goes to show those Spurs weren't really that great that they gave him the Finals MVP. 28 year old Duncan or 38 year old Duncan?

It's sort of a weird debate but I'm being told Spurs are one of the best teams this century, I'm not even sure they were the best Spurs team this century.

Danny Green was awesome on that 2014 spurs. Parker and Manu...maybe not better. But Diaw was better than say Horry. That 2014 team was DEEP and talented everywhere. THat's far more important than top end talent more often than not. People really underrate that.

Are they beating Kobe and Shaq in 2003? The 2003 Spurs did. Prime Duncan was on God tier he really doesn't get enough credit as one of the GOATs.

[dhsilv2]

If the 2014 Spurs faced the early 2000 Spurs teams that won championships would they win? Old Duncan vs Prime Duncan? Kawhi was 23 and was not the Kawhi who lead the Raptors to a championship. It just goes to show those Spurs weren't really that great that they gave him the Finals MVP. 28 year old Duncan or 38 year old Duncan?

It's sort of a weird debate but I'm being told Spurs are one of the best teams this century, I'm not even sure they were the best Spurs team this century.

Yes they would, but I understand why this seems impossible to you.

The short answer is that the '90s & '00s Spurs won titles despite not choosing a great offensive strategy. They got away with it because their defense was great, but their offense actually improved as their top players aged because they focused on a perimeter-oriented scheme rather than continuing to assume that Duncan was their proper offensive foundation.

The 2007 spurs had gotten the offense going but just didn't have the depth or skill. Bowen was just a liability vs having Green and Leonard for example. Now the 99 or 03...those teams didn't grasp offense in way that wins.

[Upperclass]

Multiple star players have 4+ rings since Jordan.. this isnt true at all.. but he is the best right now until Luka improves slightly

[One_and_Done]

Not even close. Lebron, Duncan, Shaq, and Curry for starters are all better.

Hahahahaha. Please look at who's leading the all time playoff PER list: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career_p.html

PER is a garbage stat.

[ChipotleWest]

Multiple star players have 4+ rings since Jordan.. this isnt true at all.. but he is the best right now until Luka improves slightly

Duncan and Kobe only ones with 5, I'm going with Duncan over Kobe though. I really do think he should be talked about amongst Jordan and Lebron. If Ray Allen doesn't hit that 3 he's the leader of 6 championships 6-0 just like Jordan.

[Duke4life831]

Jokic is playing amazing right now. He wouldnt be what he is in yesterdays league. Every big man would be in foul trouble by 1/2 because you would go at them every play until they get benched. Every team had a few they coudl throw at you and it would be battles to see which big would get in foul trouble first. Jokic doesnt have those worries, someone is not posting him up every time down the floor. This era teams got rid of all their bigs and Joker is flourishing. Sure he is skilled but he doesnt have Shaq, Mourning, Ewing, Yao, Duncan wearing him down during the game either. He is pretty amazing, Im not putting him as the best.

I mean its not like we're in the late 00's though when it comes to the depth of talent at the 5 spot. He's in his prime at the same time Joel Embiid is in his prime. He's also doing this while elite defensive bigs are also in their prime with guys like Gobert and AD. And even a guy like Giannis who is 6'11 with a long wingspan and is a great athlete. The depth of big man talent is pretty damn good right now.