Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[NyKnicks1714]

Hyperbole out of control. Jokic is a very skilled big with great court vision and excellent long range shooting. That said, I wouldn't say he's hands down the best player of the past 20 years. The numbers may deceive because of the way the game is played these days. Most of his rebounds are long. Steph Curry is a great rebounder at his position, just because of the way the game has changed. Plus the Joker's defensive chops are not the best. His greatness definitely deserves a bit of context.

I'm probably wrong about this and it's maybe always been the case, but it feels like this is happening more and more here. Tons of reactionary takes and short memories

[Tor_Raps]

He needs to tie LeBron in rings first for me to even entertain that conversation

Now you see why people say the same thing about Lebron when compared to Jordan lol.

[Tor_Raps]

Jokic is definitely putting himself in that conversation but like others have said, we just need to see more. I don't doubt it can happen, the man is a wizard on the basketball court.

[Capn'O]

I like that Jokic has figured out when it's his time to dominate. Yesterday, if he was in single coverage down the stretch he'd just back it in and get the bucket. When you're thinking of all time greats, that sort of unstoppable quality matters a lot.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

One more ring and he bumps Hakeem out of his spot, he's already beyond KD IMO, that 1 ring outweighs the 2 KD has.

[hardenASG13]

But that run by Denver last year beats any of Lebron’s playoff runs.
Name me a Lebron all time great playoff run. All his runs are weak. Are you gonna say 2016?

1st round Reggie Jackson lmao;
2nd round Millsap lol;
3rd round Derozan (kyrie better than derozan lol);
Finals slightly injured Curry, Draymond suspended one game

beating those 2016 Warriors is overrated, also the fact that later on Rockets would challenge them and that’s with adding KD. Cavs never challenged those KD warriors like rockets did, and Lebron supposed to be the GOAT?

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

[Ssj16]

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

[hardenASG13]

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

[NZB2323]

He needs to tie LeBron in rings first for me to even entertain that conversation

Cool, so who are the two HOF players to help Jokic win like Lebron had in Miami?

Murray was better in the playoffs last year than Wade was in any of the 4 Heat postseason runs.

2011 Wade: 25, 7, and 4, 57 TS%, 26.3 PER, 8.4 BPM, 2.2 VORP
2023 Murray: 26, 7, and 6, 58.6 TS%, 21.6 PER, 4.8 BPM, 1.4 VORP

[Cubbies2120]

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

Serious question: Rank these three players in terms of a) talent and b) accolades

Jokic, Embiid, Harden

For me, talent-wise it's: Jokic, Embiid, Harden
Accolades wise it's: Jokic, Harden, Embiid

What about you?

[Chanel Bomber]

In terms of peak yes. In fact this may be the greatest peak ever by a player with Jordan. He's that good right now.

But Jokic has to sustain it for a few more years to match the overall body of work of LeBron and Steph.

I generally value peak more than longevity in these "all-time" discussions, and we all place our cursor quite arbitrarily. But I think there should still be a minimum threshold to meet in longevity and consistency.

The two lost years from Murray are really unfortunate from this perspective. But with the foundation they have in Denver, they should still be able to contend in the near-future.

[ChumboChappati]

I can understand putting Lebron ahead of either guy in your host rankings. Longevity matters, so does actual hardware.

But peak prime? Jokic is best player in league since Jordan. They are a tier above the next best “guys at their peak prime” (Lebron Giannis Shaq) and levels above the tier below that (Durant KG Steph).

I don’t even think it’s close. He controls the game like no one else since Jordan, whereas to me the guys the tier below never controlled every game, they were more akin to unstoppable freight trains that could take over a game. It’s the difference between these guys for me.

That is going too far. Many great talents have come after Jordan who are currently ranked higher than Jokic.

[NZB2323]

Hold your horses, sure I think jokers peak is up there but no way is he levels above guys like Lebron curry and shaq. At best they are around the same.

Jokers been dominating the league but he hasn't been more dominant as shaq or curry during their peak.

Joker is back to back mvp, 1 chip so far. His teams haven't completely crushed the regular season or playoffs. He's had his failings before and don't mention what ifs or oh he could've had 3 mvps. We could do the what if's for shaq curry and Lebron easily.

But the facts are:

Shaq 3 peated 16-1 in the playoffs. West playoffs teams all had their 14/15th roster guys lumbering bigs to deal with shaq aka foul him.

Curry had his teams go 67 and 73 wins, back to back mvp one unanimous, changed the way the game is now played. Then kd came and they dominated the league two more years but that turned into a super team.

Lebrons peak is just as good with the mvps and 2 titles in Miami even if it's a super team.

Shaq went 15-1 in the playoffs with Kobe, had to go to a game 7 in 2000 and 2002, couldn't make free throws, and got swept in 1999 and 1998.

Curry might have a higher regular season peak, but Jokic is better in the playoffs.

2001 Shaq: 30, 15, and 3, 56.4 TS%, 28.7 PER, 6.5 BPM, 1.4 VORP
2017 Curry: 28, 7, and 6, 65.9 TS%, 27.1 PER, 9.7 BPM, 1.8 VORP
2023 Jokic: 30, 14, and 10, 63.1 TS%, 31.2 PER, 12.8 BPM, 3.0 VORP

And I'll take Kobe or Durant over Murray. You can say Curry won without Durant, but his playoff numbers weren't nearly as good those years.

[Ssj16]

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

Clippers with PG and Kawhi, Suns with Booker and KD, last year's Lakers are as good if not better than the OKC team with a young KD, Westbrook and Harden.

[TheFire]

His start to these playoffs has been absolutely insane. Both games have been a masterclass. In the first two games, his BPM is 18, WS/48 is .418, PER of 38.2 and TS% of 69%. Obviously not sustainable, but he somehow looks even better than last year. At worst, he's tied with Shaq and slightly behind Lebron for the best player since Jordan. He's clearly above Duncan, Kobe, Steph and KD.

[E-Balla]

This is a wild thread. The Nuggets figured out how to defend around Jokic and should get praise for it, but them covering his weakness enough for it not to matter doesn't make him the best. Jokic is barely in my top 5 since Jordan (Bron, Shaq, Duncan are top 3 easily - Giannis vs Jokic is a toss up after them).

The thread is hyperbole. But "covering for his weakness" with a group of role players (even though they are better defensively with him than without) being all it takes to be a champion and perennial contender says a lot about how good he is.

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

[NZB2323]

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Yet all of those teams were considerably better than any team Jokic has beat.....by alot. If you disagree, name the teams Denver beat who are better please.

The 07 pistons were still very good. As were the 2012 Thunder (as evidenced by them also being the best team in the league the following season). The Nuggets haven't gone to a game 7.....because they haven't played a team like 2013 San Antonio. The 2016 warriors were a historically good team, who beat the OKC Thunder (a team that beat a 60 win spurs team without homecourt). Jokic and Murray were young in 2021 I guess (Jokic 26, 24 Murray). Although LeBron was pretty accomplished by age 26 I'd say.

Of course Jokic has time to beat that resume. I'll need to see him beat some higher quality competition before I consider it though, and nothing hes done in that regard is remotely close to say that he's the best player since Michael Jordan....because he beat some bad teams out west and the 8 seed heat in the finals last year.

07 Pistons didn't have Ben Wallace anymore. You really think that Billups and Rasheed are beating Lebron and Anthony Davis in a playoff series? I know that Lebron is past his prime, but so was Rasheed. Rasheed didn't even make the all-star team that year. I know the Pistons had Rip but Reaves played just as well in the playoffs last year as Rip did in 2007.

Luol Deng and Ben Gordon took that Pistons team to 6 games, but you think that LeBron and Anthony Davis lose to them?

[One Last Shot]

But that run by Denver last year beats any of Lebron’s playoff runs.
Name me a Lebron all time great playoff run. All his runs are weak. Are you gonna say 2016?

1st round Reggie Jackson lmao;
2nd round Millsap lol;
3rd round Derozan (kyrie better than derozan lol);
Finals slightly injured Curry, Draymond suspended one game

beating those 2016 Warriors is overrated, also the fact that later on Rockets would challenge them and that’s with adding KD. Cavs never challenged those KD warriors like rockets did, and Lebron supposed to be the GOAT?

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Old? 2007 Pistons got their championship core of Hamilton(28), Billups(30), Prince(26), Sheed(32) and they replaced Ben with Webber(33) and McDyess(32) while LeBron is playing with Pavlovic, Bobbie Gibson and Drew Gooden. LeBron is 11 years older now than their leading scorer that time, Billups lead the Nuggets to WCF 3 years after.

Big 3 Celtics got 4 All-Stars in 2011. When Kobe beat them in 2010 Finals, they are in their prime and when LeBron did, they are washed?

2012 OKC went 12-3 against the Western Powerhouse of defending champs Mavericks, Kobe Lakers and Spurs dynasty. There's a reason they are favored to beat the Heat.

2013 Spurs dynasty got Duncan/Parker/Manu and one of the best perimeter defender in Kawhi plus Green who shot 55% 3PT in Finals while being coached by Pop.

2016 Warriors 73-win squad got 3 All-NBA/All-Star, b2b reigning MVP, 2nd in DPOY and reigning Finals MVP in their squad While Cleveland's 3rd best player Kevin Love got a concussion, missed a game during the Finals series and averaged 8.5 ppg in 46% TS and the Cavs still manage to beat the best team in regular season history coming back from 3-1 deficit, the only time its done in NBA Finals history.


Jokic is a great player, a GOAT candidate in my opinion but so far in his career, he won 1 NBA title by beating the 8th seed, 4th seed, 7th seed and another 8th seed in NBA Finals. He has a great opportunity to amplify his GOAT status by winning the Finals this playoffs against the powerhouse Celtics. Like you said, give it time and lets see if he can win multiple rings at the very least. LeBron carry a lottery team(2007 and 2018 Cavs) to NBA Finals while Jokic got swept by the Suns in 2021 semifinals and lost to 2022 Warriors in the 1st round of playoffs when Jamal was hurt. Let's see in the future if he's capable to carry a lottery squad in the postseason and win more than one playoffs series like LeBron did incase his best teammate got injured again.

[hardenASG13]

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

Clippers with PG and Kawhi, Suns with Booker and KD, last year's Lakers are as good if not better than the OKC team with a young KD, Westbrook and Harden.

Hard disagree. What have the clippers accomplished exactly?

Re the Suns.....tell me you didn't watch them play without telling me you didn't watch them play.

So you think last year's Lakers, the 7 seed, who beat Memphis and a warriors team who struggled with the kings in round 1, were better than the 2012 thunder, who had been to the conference finals the previous year and took out the 2012 Spurs in the WCF (a spurs team that was tied for best record in the league, was accomplished, had home court and made the next 2 finals)? I'm sorry I don't see that.

[hardenASG13]

Lol. Tell me your bias without telling me your bias.

Nah, same question to you. Name the team that's better than any I've listed who Jokic has beat in a playoff series. None of them come close.

I'm not biased, I've just seen the league. This thread is stating Jokic is better than prime LeBron. I'm asking, based on what? We're talking all time greats here, who became that by beating really good teams. I don't see any such wins on Jokics resume to justify even having the discussion to this point.

Serious question: Rank these three players in terms of a) talent and b) accolades

Jokic, Embiid, Harden

For me, talent-wise it's: Jokic, Embiid, Harden
Accolades wise it's: Jokic, Harden, Embiid

What about you?

Nah, that's got nothing to do with this topic, or what I'm discussing. It's just something you like to talk about.