Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[Roger Murdock]

You can’t compare teams in a vacuum today vs 20 years ago.

Cavs went to the finals starting Sasha Pavlich and Drew Gooden. Those guys wouldn’t play in todays nba.

The 2007 pistons wouldnt be good in todays nba but they were clearly better vs their contemporaries than these Lakers are. Those pistons were the 1 seed and won 2 playoff series and were heavy favorites to make the finals. The lakers are a playin team. It’s no discussion.

[bledredwine]

Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

Peak Shaq is arguably the most dominant force in NBA history but as far as overall game is concerned and making others better, I think I'd take Jokic over him. I certainly wouldn't argue with somebody taking late 90s, early 00s Shaq though, he was unstoppable for a good 5 year period.

I disagree here. You literally had to double team Shaq (one exception; Rodman) or he'd dominate the game.

It was similar to Jordan in that regard.
He made others better because of the attention he garnered defensively. It was an easy job for everyone else,
especially if you can set him up with a great perimeter player.

It goes Peak Jordan/Wilt > Peak Shaq > Bird/Jokic > everyone else, strictly from an offensive standpoint.
I consider Bird heavily underrated, when it comes to peak. I put Jokic up there in that same tier.

Either way, these players are potentially the easiest to build around in NBA history to win a title, and that's impressive in its own right. Jokic is right there.

[NZB2323]

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Old? 2007 Pistons got their championship core of Hamilton(28), Billups(30), Prince(26), Sheed(32) and they replaced Ben with Webber(33) and McDyess(32) while LeBron is playing with Pavlovic, Bobbie Gibson and Drew Gooden. LeBron is 11 years older now than their leading scorer that time, Billups lead the Nuggets to WCF 3 years after.

Big 3 Celtics got 4 All-Stars in 2011. When Kobe beat them in 2010 Finals, they are in their prime and when LeBron did, they are washed?

2012 OKC went 12-3 against the Western Powerhouse of defending champs Mavericks, Kobe Lakers and Spurs dynasty. There's a reason they are favored to beat the Heat.

2013 Spurs dynasty got Duncan/Parker/Manu and one of the best perimeter defender in Kawhi plus Green who shot 55% 3PT in Finals while being coached by Pop.

2016 Warriors 73-win squad got 3 All-NBA/All-Star, b2b reigning MVP, 2nd in DPOY and reigning Finals MVP in their squad While Cleveland's 3rd best player Kevin Love got a concussion, missed a game during the Finals series and averaged 8.5 ppg in 46% TS and the Cavs still manage to beat the best team in regular season history coming back from 3-1 deficit, the only time its done in NBA Finals history.


Jokic is a great player, a GOAT candidate in my opinion but so far in his career, he won 1 NBA title by beating the 8th seed, 4th seed, 7th seed and another 8th seed in NBA Finals. He has a great opportunity to amplify his GOAT status by winning the Finals this playoffs against the powerhouse Celtics. Like you said, give it time and lets see if he can win multiple rings at the very least. LeBron carry a lottery team(2007 and 2018 Cavs) to NBA Finals while Jokic got swept by the Suns in 2021 semifinals and lost to 2022 Warriors in the 1st round of playoffs when Jamal was hurt. Let's see in the future if he's capable to carry a lottery squad in the postseason and win more than one playoffs series like LeBron did incase his best teammate got injured again.

2007 was Chris Webber’s last year in the league, and Rasheed was 4 years away from retirement. Ben Wallace was arguably the best player on the 2004 Pistons and they lost him. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng took the 07 Pistons to 6 games; I think Lebron and AD beat them.

2023 Lakers > 2007 Pistons

[Liam_Gallagher]

For years I never bought into the Jokic hype. I could never put a finger on what kind of player he is. I finally get it now. I realized who he is.

Imagine the year is 2003. You're playing NBA Live. You go into edit Player mode and you select Vlade Divac. You edit his stats to make him 97 overall.

That's Jokic.

[NZB2323]

You can’t compare teams in a vacuum today vs 20 years ago.

Cavs went to the finals starting Sasha Pavlich and Drew Gooden. Those guys wouldn’t play in todays nba.

The 2007 pistons wouldnt be good in todays nba but they were clearly better vs their contemporaries than these Lakers are. Those pistons were the 1 seed and won 2 playoff series and were heavy favorites to make the finals. The lakers are a playin team. It’s no discussion.

The Lakers had the best record in the league after the Westbrook trade.

The 1995 Rockets were a 6th seed. Were they a bad team?

[KrAzY3]

I do think there's an interesting comparison to make between the impact Shaq, Lebron, and Jokic have had in their prime.

The curious thing is that Jokic is kind of a hybrid between the two. All three are huge strong human beings, but Jokic can mix dominant inside play with elite passing. I honestly think who would be better in their prime is relative to the teammates.

For instance, as dominant as Shaq was, he wasn't going to get a ton of assists (career high was 3.8). So if you need someone distribute the ball, Shaq is just not going to be your man. Furthermore he was dominant inside but a fairly poor shooter (.045 from three for his career, .527 from the free throw line).

Jokic is on the other end of that, he's a 35% three point shooter, his assists have been going up (6.9 for his career but 9+ the past two seasons) and he's a .827 free throw shooter. So, you have absolutely no misgivings at all about Jokic having the ball.

LeBron is smaller, but more athletic than either, so he can do things the other two can't. He's not quite the shooter Jokic is, and their passing is very similar, however Jokic turns the ball over less.

So what do I want. If I just want sheer domination, it's Shaq. If I want someone who is just does an amazing job of making the right choice with the basketball, it's Jokic (he shoots well, doesn't turn it over much, and passes well). If I want someone who can kind of do it all, it's LeBron.

[bledredwine]

Here is what this entire generation of fans, American players (and the general board) need to take from Jokic, Luka, Wembanyama and this new group of elite players;

It is paramount to have a midrange shot and an elite post up game, if you want to dominate not only throughout the game, but in the clutch. Don't buy into this bullcrap shooting 3's, face-up and passing is what you need play style.

Work on the post game. Learn to play with your back towards the basket. That's how you can at least have
the right path to becoming a Luka/Jokic/Wembanyama, otherwise you have no shot (not that you would anyway).

The midrange shot will never be extinct, despite what some crazy fans like to pretend. Jokic is proof of that. You need it
to be a consistent ceiling raiser. Learn it all and especially focus on any weakness, like chess, like boxing, like anything.

[NyKnicks1714]

This is a wild thread. The Nuggets figured out how to defend around Jokic and should get praise for it, but them covering his weakness enough for it not to matter doesn't make him the best. Jokic is barely in my top 5 since Jordan (Bron, Shaq, Duncan are top 3 easily - Giannis vs Jokic is a toss up after them).

Partially true. He's a solid defensive player. He doesn't do anything overly impressive and he's not a rim protector, but he's far from bad and he's not a weakness. He's never going to impact a game defensively though, and definitely not in the way some other elite players can.

[lessthanjake]

This is a wild thread. The Nuggets figured out how to defend around Jokic and should get praise for it, but them covering his weakness enough for it not to matter doesn't make him the best. Jokic is barely in my top 5 since Jordan (Bron, Shaq, Duncan are top 3 easily - Giannis vs Jokic is a toss up after them).

The thread is hyperbole. But "covering for his weakness" with a group of role players (even though they are better defensively with him than without) being all it takes to be a champion and perennial contender says a lot about how good he is.

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

Those numbers regarding Gordon and KCP on the court without Jokic are based on a grand total of 134 minutes. It’s a meaninglessly small sample size.

More generally, Jokic pretty consistently has positive defensive impact when controlling for lineups. The Engelmann 1997-2024 RAPM (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/edit#gid=0) has Jokic as a strong defender. It doesn’t have him at the level of elite big men defenders like Gobert, Garnett, Draymond, etc. But it has him up there in defensive impact with very good big men defenders and elite wing/guard defenders.

[Ambrose]

This is a wild thread. The Nuggets figured out how to defend around Jokic and should get praise for it, but them covering his weakness enough for it not to matter doesn't make him the best. Jokic is barely in my top 5 since Jordan (Bron, Shaq, Duncan are top 3 easily - Giannis vs Jokic is a toss up after them).

The thread is hyperbole. But "covering for his weakness" with a group of role players (even though they are better defensively with him than without) being all it takes to be a champion and perennial contender says a lot about how good he is.

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

What a scheme that must be that only somehow works in Denver despite him allegedly being terrible on that end. Crazy how that only works with him.

[Jta444]

You cant be serious. How about beating the 07 Pistons. Beating the big 3 Celtics, the 2012 OKC Thunder, the 2013 Spurs.....and yes beating the 73 win, 2016 warriors was extremely impressive. Plus beating the 2021 Jokic/Murray Nuggets at the tail end of his prime. Nobody Denver beat last year, including their finals opponent, was a contending caliber team.

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Old? 2007 Pistons got their championship core of Hamilton(28), Billups(30), Prince(26), Sheed(32) and they replaced Ben with Webber(33) and McDyess(32) while LeBron is playing with Pavlovic, Bobbie Gibson and Drew Gooden. LeBron is 11 years older now than their leading scorer that time, Billups lead the Nuggets to WCF 3 years after.

Big 3 Celtics got 4 All-Stars in 2011. When Kobe beat them in 2010 Finals, they are in their prime and when LeBron did, they are washed?

2012 OKC went 12-3 against the Western Powerhouse of defending champs Mavericks, Kobe Lakers and Spurs dynasty. There's a reason they are favored to beat the Heat.

2013 Spurs dynasty got Duncan/Parker/Manu and one of the best perimeter defender in Kawhi plus Green who shot 55% 3PT in Finals while being coached by Pop.

2016 Warriors 73-win squad got 3 All-NBA/All-Star, b2b reigning MVP, 2nd in DPOY and reigning Finals MVP in their squad While Cleveland's 3rd best player Kevin Love got a concussion, missed a game during the Finals series and averaged 8.5 ppg in 46% TS and the Cavs still manage to beat the best team in regular season history coming back from 3-1 deficit, the only time its done in NBA Finals history.


Jokic is a great player, a GOAT candidate in my opinion but so far in his career, he won 1 NBA title by beating the 8th seed, 4th seed, 7th seed and another 8th seed in NBA Finals. He has a great opportunity to amplify his GOAT status by winning the Finals this playoffs against the powerhouse Celtics. Like you said, give it time and lets see if he can win multiple rings at the very least. LeBron carry a lottery team(2007 and 2018 Cavs) to NBA Finals while Jokic got swept by the Suns in 2021 semifinals and lost to 2022 Warriors in the 1st round of playoffs when Jamal was hurt. Let's see in the future if he's capable to carry a lottery squad in the postseason and win more than one playoffs series like LeBron did incase his best teammate got injured again.

Lol typical Lebron fan just like Lebron you think you did it all on your team. You forgot to add the quality players he had on those teams. Wade, Bosh, Allen, Battier, Miller, Kyrie, Love, Thompson, RJ, JR, Shumpert etc.

Also biggest factor is East is so weak meanwhile the one going out West is tired from having so many battles with each other YOU yourself pointed out Thunder 2012 had to battle Spurs, Lakers, Mavs who did Heat battle lol. Lebron always fresh coming out East that should be taken into context theres an image out there saying how many 50 win teams Lebron beat lol Kobe and Jordan beat more. Lebron is smart he teams up with East’s best players recruits them (Wade, Bosh, Allen, Kyrie) so it weakens the already weak conference further. Automatic trip to Finals fresh legs ready to face the tired Western team. Fckin smart i must say but a cowardly move by the so called The King lol

[Duke4life831]

I think it’s pretty hard to compare all of this stuff. Because we are talking different eras (we’re even in a drastically different era today compared to LeBron’s Miami run). Then with that, it’s hard to compare team success. Because it’s not like all of these guys got dealt with the same cards and it’s easy just to compare overall success.

But with that said, I will just put it this way. I think Jokic has at least put himself on the MJ/Shaq/LeBron (if we were to go further back the Bird/Magic/Kareem) tier of players who’s prime will be talked about for as long as there’s an NBA.

I think it’s safe to say he’s in the very special tier. Just watch the dude, he’s unlike anything we’ve ever seen and opposing teams and players just have no clue whatsoever on not how to stop him, but to even hinder his play at all. Its the playoffs and Anthony Davis is arguably a top 3 defensive big man in the last 15-20 years and he’s in his prime. He’s not even slowing down Jokic at all. Jokic just toys with him and does whatever he wants whenever he wants. We’re watching something special right now.

[dhsilv2]

For years I never bought into the Jokic hype. I could never put a finger on what kind of player he is. I finally get it now. I realized who he is.

Imagine the year is 2003. You're playing NBA Live. You go into edit Player mode and you select Vlade Divac. You edit his stats to make him 97 overall.

That's Jokic.

Vlade was an elite rim protector and Jokic's a 120 passer on that 100 point scale...but umm...ok. I get just saying he's a 97 level player at everything in the game, other than shot blocking and 3 point shooting (90ish?) and obviously as maxed out as a passer as you can be.

[E-Balla]

The thread is hyperbole. But "covering for his weakness" with a group of role players (even though they are better defensively with him than without) being all it takes to be a champion and perennial contender says a lot about how good he is.

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

Those numbers regarding Gordon and KCP on the court without Jokic are based on a grand total of 134 minutes. It’s a meaninglessly small sample size.

More generally, Jokic pretty consistently has positive defensive impact when controlling for lineups. The Engelmann 1997-2024 RAPM (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8/edit#gid=0) has Jokic as a strong defender. It doesn’t have him at the level of elite big men defenders like Gobert, Garnett, Draymond, etc. But it has him up there in defensive impact with very good big men defenders and elite wing/guard defenders.

More to my point, the off court sample is trash in Denver.

And RAPM can't adjust for your skills only how impactful you are in your role. Jokic is asked to be in position, use his quick hands to disrupt plays, and rebound. The team covers for the rest.

[Peregrine01]

The thread is hyperbole. But "covering for his weakness" with a group of role players (even though they are better defensively with him than without) being all it takes to be a champion and perennial contender says a lot about how good he is.

Yeah the bold is hilarious. The Nuggets have the 5th best defense in the paint this year only under the Wolves (Gobert), Nets (Claxton), Grizzlies (JJJ), and Cavs (Allen/Mobley). Notice all of their Cs and how they're all elite rim defenders, while Jokic is one of the worst in the league? It's because of their defensive scheme which not only covers for his weakness but allows them to be elite inside. The Nuggets had a mediocre at best defense as recently as halfway through last season, it's not even like they've been good for long.

Also they're worse on defense without him on the floor because Aaron Gordon and KCP don't play together without Jokic. They have a 109 DRTG on the court together without Jokic and a 113 with Jokic. They never play Jokic without AG, KCP, or Watson on the court with him to cover for his weaknesses on that end.

What a scheme that must be that only somehow works in Denver despite him allegedly being terrible on that end. Crazy how that only works with him.

People constantly underrate defensive rebounding, positioning and anticipation.

Not to mention that he’s so good on offense that opposing teams are frequently taking the ball out of the basket so they don’t get any easy transition points.

[One Last Shot]

What??
07 Pistons were old with no Ben Wallace anymore
Big 3 Celtics was old and not the prime one Kobe beat
2012 OKC Durant and Westbrook were young and Harden came off the bench lol
2013 Spurs ill give you that but Lebron needed Ray allen and game 7 for that Nuggets never went to a game 7 yet
2016 warriors were fatigued from the West while Cavs beat garbage team in East + Draymond suspension
2021 Jokic Murray lol they were young and he had prime AD who averaged more points than Lebron

And that’s more than a decade of series can you wait for Jokic he is just starting. Youre skewing narratives like Lebron likes to do lol

Old? 2007 Pistons got their championship core of Hamilton(28), Billups(30), Prince(26), Sheed(32) and they replaced Ben with Webber(33) and McDyess(32) while LeBron is playing with Pavlovic, Bobbie Gibson and Drew Gooden. LeBron is 11 years older now than their leading scorer that time, Billups lead the Nuggets to WCF 3 years after.

Big 3 Celtics got 4 All-Stars in 2011. When Kobe beat them in 2010 Finals, they are in their prime and when LeBron did, they are washed?

2012 OKC went 12-3 against the Western Powerhouse of defending champs Mavericks, Kobe Lakers and Spurs dynasty. There's a reason they are favored to beat the Heat.

2013 Spurs dynasty got Duncan/Parker/Manu and one of the best perimeter defender in Kawhi plus Green who shot 55% 3PT in Finals while being coached by Pop.

2016 Warriors 73-win squad got 3 All-NBA/All-Star, b2b reigning MVP, 2nd in DPOY and reigning Finals MVP in their squad While Cleveland's 3rd best player Kevin Love got a concussion, missed a game during the Finals series and averaged 8.5 ppg in 46% TS and the Cavs still manage to beat the best team in regular season history coming back from 3-1 deficit, the only time its done in NBA Finals history.


Jokic is a great player, a GOAT candidate in my opinion but so far in his career, he won 1 NBA title by beating the 8th seed, 4th seed, 7th seed and another 8th seed in NBA Finals. He has a great opportunity to amplify his GOAT status by winning the Finals this playoffs against the powerhouse Celtics. Like you said, give it time and lets see if he can win multiple rings at the very least. LeBron carry a lottery team(2007 and 2018 Cavs) to NBA Finals while Jokic got swept by the Suns in 2021 semifinals and lost to 2022 Warriors in the 1st round of playoffs when Jamal was hurt. Let's see in the future if he's capable to carry a lottery squad in the postseason and win more than one playoffs series like LeBron did incase his best teammate got injured again.

2007 was Chris Webber’s last year in the league, and Rasheed was 4 years away from retirement. Ben Wallace was arguably the best player on the 2004 Pistons and they lost him. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng took the 07 Pistons to 6 games; I think Lebron and AD beat them.

2023 Lakers > 2007 Pistons

Why does it matter if LeBron/AD beat the 2007 Pistons? He's not playing with Davis that time, he played with Big Z, Gooden, Gibson and Pavlovic. Their main championship core Sheed/Billups/Hamilton/Prince averaged 29 years old in 2007, even without Ben they keep winning until Cavs beat them. LeBron also doesn't have a teammate who averaged 32.5 ppg like Jokic have in 2023 against the Lakers. 2007 Cavs should be one of the worst team that season without LeBron. They have no business to beat that Pistons squad unless LeBron go supernova which he did scoring Cleveland's last 25 points in Game 5.

[Roger Murdock]

You can’t compare teams in a vacuum today vs 20 years ago.

Cavs went to the finals starting Sasha Pavlich and Drew Gooden. Those guys wouldn’t play in todays nba.

The 2007 pistons wouldnt be good in todays nba but they were clearly better vs their contemporaries than these Lakers are. Those pistons were the 1 seed and won 2 playoff series and were heavy favorites to make the finals. The lakers are a playin team. It’s no discussion.

The Lakers had the best record in the league after the Westbrook trade.

The 1995 Rockets were a 6th seed. Were they a bad team?

The current lakers are going to get swept in the first round. I thought last years lakers were a top 4 team at start of playoffs. This year I think they are a bottom 4 playoff team. I don’t see your point - I’m aware they were in form for a few months late last season.

What do the 1994 rockets have to do with anything? That team won the title. What are you expecting from these Lakers? They are flat lining

[dhsilv2]

Here is what this entire generation of fans, American players (and the general board) need to take from Jokic, Luka, Wembanyama and this new group of elite players;

It is paramount to have a midrange shot and an elite post up game, if you want to dominate not only throughout the game, but in the clutch. Don't buy into this bullcrap shooting 3's, face-up and passing is what you need play style.

Work on the post game. Learn to play with your back towards the basket. That's how you can at least have
the right path to becoming a Luka/Jokic/Wembanyama, otherwise you have no shot (not that you would anyway).

The midrange shot will never be extinct, despite what some crazy fans like to pretend. Jokic is proof of that. You need it
to be a consistent ceiling raiser. Learn it all and especially focus on any weakness, like chess, like boxing, like anything.

Nobody thinks the midrange shot has gone away from elite players other than you and a a few people who seem obsessed with trying to mis represent the modern game. EVERYONE keeps saying this. The mid range shot has been taken away from "role" players. Stars still shoot in the mid range. Be it KD, Booker, CP3, Leonard...or any of the others. Curry and Harden are really the only two major stars who didn't use the mid range.

[E-Balla]

What a scheme that must be that only somehow works in Denver despite him allegedly being terrible on that end. Crazy how that only works with him.

Who exactly alleged that he was terrible on that end? Please let me know when you find them so we can shame them.

[Ambrose]

What a scheme that must be that only somehow works in Denver despite him allegedly being terrible on that end. Crazy how that only works with him.

Who exactly alleged that he was terrible on that end? Please let me know when you find them so we can shame them.

You called him one of the worst in the league. But looking back you said rim protectors, not overall, so that's on me.