Jokic is the best player since Jordan

[ChipotleWest]

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I agree with the last part that Denver has been overhyped because they haven't beaten a great team except they own 38-39 year old Lebron and AD, but I do not agree that the 2014 Spurs were better than Denver. Based off what? The player with the highest ppg that season was Tony Parker at 16.7 ppg. Denver's 3rd best Scorer MPJ scored 16 ppg. Yes the Spurs had a good defense but I'll take prime Jokic Murray MPJ and Gordon over 38 year old Duncan 23 year old Kawhi and Parker and Ginobili.

[lessthanjake]

More to my point, the off court sample is trash in Denver.

And RAPM can't adjust for your skills only how impactful you are in your role. Jokic is asked to be in position, use his quick hands to disrupt plays, and rebound. The team covers for the rest.

The bolded seems like a generally accurate breakdown to me. But I think Jokic being in position, using his quick hands to disrupt plays, and being a dominant rebounder is very impactful defensively! As is the fact that he’s very good about getting back in transition—particularly compared to other big men. If you put weak defensive players around him, that’s not going to be enough to make the defense good. He’s not some elite defensive center that makes a defense great on his own. But he has qualities that make it quite possible (and indeed, not all that difficult) to have a good defense with him. The Nuggets have a good defense (not elite, but good), and they don’t actually even have a defensively-slanted roster (Gordon and KCP are defensive-focused, but Murray and Porter Jr. definitely are not, and they don’t have some notable defensive stopper on the bench).

Agree with everything but this. Peyton Watson is amazing. Probably the best defensive wing in the league at the rim and one of the best I've ever seen easily.

Yeah, that’s a fair point, and I did think about Peyton Watson and almost erased that line. He doesn’t get a lot of minutes though (which is why I didn’t quite think he qualified as “notable”), so it’s not like the 1980s Lakers having Michael Cooper coming off the bench with almost 30 mins a game or something. He’s definitely a very defense-slanted player though (and quite good at that aspect of the game). I think the general point remains about Denver though. They’ve managed to have a good defense without having a roster that’s actually slanted towards defense-focused players. It’s more like a balanced roster in terms of offense and defense. Which suggests to me that it’s not all that difficult to build a good defense around Jokic.

[Exp0sed]

I just want to touch on Murray and the supporting cast. It's a very good squad. Murray, MPJ, Gordon, KCP etc. are no joke. I'd definitely take the Nuggets minus their big 2 over the Lakers minus their big 2.

Gordon in particular is what puts the roster over the top for me by adding really good athleticism. Any team without an athletic big is going to get roasted by Gordon. Him no longer having to try to be a finisher made him into an incredible role player.

Murray not being an all star doesn't matter. He's an elite guard when it matters, as we saw last night.

I will concede that it's not an all world cast like the peak Warriors or whatever. But VERY solid supporting players for Jokic.

dude, Murray had an abysmal game. it wasn't just the missed shots, he was taking bad shots and making bad decision after bad decision and his defense was weak as well (it's good sometimes, but yesterday it wasn't). it's cool that the Nuggets insisted they believe in him and he'll keep shooting and he def made the two that counted but "as we saw last night" is kind of the proof to the opposite of what ur arguing

[bledredwine]

For years I never bought into the Jokic hype. I could never put a finger on what kind of player he is. I finally get it now. I realized who he is.

Imagine the year is 2003. You're playing NBA Live. You go into edit Player mode and you select Vlade Divac. You edit his stats to make him 97 overall.

That's Jokic.

Vlade was an elite rim protector and Jokic's a 120 passer on that 100 point scale...but umm...ok. I get just saying he's a 97 level player at everything in the game, other than shot blocking and 3 point shooting (90ish?) and obviously as maxed out as a passer as you can be.

I had a similar reaction, but then thought about it- You're right about Vlade defensively. That said, he was a very versatile offensive player- one of the best all-around centers we've seen, racking up points, assists, blocks, etc. Keep in mind that he functioned in a system and they never really ran point through the center.

I could see the comparison of Jokic being an overpowered Vlade. Obviously, Jokic is better, but the skillset is apt.

[Letsgokings]

No he's a big dumb oaf with soft hands

[dhsilv2]

For years I never bought into the Jokic hype. I could never put a finger on what kind of player he is. I finally get it now. I realized who he is.

Imagine the year is 2003. You're playing NBA Live. You go into edit Player mode and you select Vlade Divac. You edit his stats to make him 97 overall.

That's Jokic.

Vlade was an elite rim protector and Jokic's a 120 passer on that 100 point scale...but umm...ok. I get just saying he's a 97 level player at everything in the game, other than shot blocking and 3 point shooting (90ish?) and obviously as maxed out as a passer as you can be.

I had a similar reaction, but then thought about it- You're right about Vlade defensively. That said, he was a very versatile offensive player- one of the best all-around centers we've seen, racking up points, assists, blocks, etc. Keep in mind that he functioned in a system and they never really ran point through the center.

I could see the comparison of Jokic being an overpowered Vlade. Obviously, Jokic is better, but the skillset is apt.

Vlade was like an 80-85 other than 3 point shooting and shot blocking, but yeah...he was super all around. Add in Jokic's endurance is night and day, he's quicker. But Vlade was I believe bigger (unless I'm using 90's/00's glasses on size).

[bledredwine]

Vlade was an elite rim protector and Jokic's a 120 passer on that 100 point scale...but umm...ok. I get just saying he's a 97 level player at everything in the game, other than shot blocking and 3 point shooting (90ish?) and obviously as maxed out as a passer as you can be.

I had a similar reaction, but then thought about it- You're right about Vlade defensively. That said, he was a very versatile offensive player- one of the best all-around centers we've seen, racking up points, assists, blocks, etc. Keep in mind that he functioned in a system and they never really ran point through the center.

I could see the comparison of Jokic being an overpowered Vlade. Obviously, Jokic is better, but the skillset is apt.

Vlade was like an 80-85 other than 3 point shooting and shot blocking, but yeah...he was super all around. Add in Jokic's endurance is night and day, he's quicker. But Vlade was I believe bigger (unless I'm using 90's/00's glasses on size).

For sure.. I remember Vlade being someone of an enforcer at times. That said, Jokic has underrated strength.

Of course Vlade's not as good- totally agree.

[hardenASG13]

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I agree with the last part that Denver has been overhyped because they haven't beaten a great team except they own 38-39 year old Lebron and AD, but I do not agree that the 2014 Spurs were better than Denver. Based off what? The player with the highest ppg that season was Tony Parker at 16.7 ppg. Denver's 3rd best Scorer MPJ scored 16 ppg. Yes the Spurs had a good defense but I'll take prime Jokic Murray MPJ and Gordon over 38 year old Duncan 23 year old Kawhi and Parker and Ginobili.

Just based on watching the 2 teams play. The 2014 spurs played beautiful basketball and were incredibly balanced. I dont view the Nuggets as one of the best teams ive seen this century. I think we happen to be in a weird era where there arent many established teams. Those spurs took down prime Russ/MVP KD and the heatles. It didnt matter if parker was their highest scorer. Thats how good they were. I just don't see any reasoning that would suggest Denver has shown anything as impressive, and I don't think they are playing better basketball.

[ChipotleWest]

Believe it or not, the 2014 spurs were better than current Denver. Jokic and Denver have never played a team as close to as good as them, or the 2011 mavericks for that matter, in a playoff series.

I agree with the last part that Denver has been overhyped because they haven't beaten a great team except they own 38-39 year old Lebron and AD, but I do not agree that the 2014 Spurs were better than Denver. Based off what? The player with the highest ppg that season was Tony Parker at 16.7 ppg. Denver's 3rd best Scorer MPJ scored 16 ppg. Yes the Spurs had a good defense but I'll take prime Jokic Murray MPJ and Gordon over 38 year old Duncan 23 year old Kawhi and Parker and Ginobili.

Just based on watching the 2 teams play. The 2014 spurs played beautiful basketball and were incredibly balanced. I dont view the Nuggets as one of the best teams ive seen this century. I think we happen to be in a weird era where there arent many established teams. Those spurs took down prime Russ/MVP KD and the heatles. It didnt matter if parker was their highest scorer. Thats how good they were. I just don't see any reasoning that would suggest Denver has shown anything as impressive, and I don't think they are playing better basketball.

Nobody calls the 2014 Spurs one of the best teams this century but you. The 2011 Mavs took down the same teams you mentioned and swept 2x defending champ Lakers, but nobody calls them one of the best teams this century either. Maybe Lebron and KD are just overhyped and often came up small in the playoffs when faced with good defenses.

I also do not view Nuggets as one of the best teams this century either. They didn't beat anyone above a 4 seed last year. To me the best teams were 2017-2019 Warriors it was just unfair they added KD to a championship team. But KD outside of the Warriors has won nothing. Credit where credit is due to 2000-2002 Lakers the only team to threepeat this century. These are the best teams not Nuggets or Spurs.

[Eagle4]

5 years peak LA Shaq from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.764

Last 5 season Jokic from 0-3 had a FG% of 0.757

I consider 1 singular year to be one's peak and multiple years to be one's prime. So do '00 Shaq specifically and then do Jokic's best year and THEN report back.

Shaq 2000: 57.8 TS%, 3.8 assists per game.

Jokic 2023: 70.1 TS%, 9.8 assists per game.

Also if Shaq played today teams could play zone defense, try hack-a-Shaq, flop, ect. Shaq wouldn’t dunk on every play and have a FG% of 100%.

Not what I asked. Also once again era, pace, etc. You guys like answering questions with things that have little relation. I didn't say he'd have a fg of 99.99%, use your brain. I implied that not many players today would be able to guard Shaq and dunks are 99.99% rate (a dunk can be missed). Back then teams literally stocked up and bigs to guard Shaq. Teams tried all they could back then, implementing various defenses, were overall tougher and couldn't stop him. You think smaller less stout defenders have a chance over someone 150 pounds heavier? Get real.

Zion is proof enough that Shaq would wreck this league. Stop overthinking things.

[Godymas]

ridiculous thing to say

LeBron 2011-2013 was the best player in the league on both sides of the ball and won back to back MVPs (which made him a 4x MVP) and had 2 rings

Jokic is NOT anything noteable on defense other than rebounding

[ChipotleWest]

ridiculous thing to say

LeBron 2011-2013 was the best player in the league on both sides of the ball and won back to back MVPs (which made him a 4x MVP) and had 2 rings

Jokic is NOT anything noteable on defense other than rebounding

And Lebron stopped playing defense not long after that.

[Ambrose]

I agree with the last part that Denver has been overhyped because they haven't beaten a great team except they own 38-39 year old Lebron and AD, but I do not agree that the 2014 Spurs were better than Denver. Based off what? The player with the highest ppg that season was Tony Parker at 16.7 ppg. Denver's 3rd best Scorer MPJ scored 16 ppg. Yes the Spurs had a good defense but I'll take prime Jokic Murray MPJ and Gordon over 38 year old Duncan 23 year old Kawhi and Parker and Ginobili.

Just based on watching the 2 teams play. The 2014 spurs played beautiful basketball and were incredibly balanced. I dont view the Nuggets as one of the best teams ive seen this century. I think we happen to be in a weird era where there arent many established teams. Those spurs took down prime Russ/MVP KD and the heatles. It didnt matter if parker was their highest scorer. Thats how good they were. I just don't see any reasoning that would suggest Denver has shown anything as impressive, and I don't think they are playing better basketball.

Nobody calls the 2014 Spurs one of the best teams this century but you. The 2011 Mavs took down the same teams you mentioned and swept 2x defending champ Lakers, but nobody calls them one of the best teams this century either. Maybe Lebron and KD are just overhyped and often came up small in the playoffs when faced with good defenses.

I also do not view Nuggets as one of the best teams this century either. They didn't beat anyone above a 4 seed last year. To me the best teams were 2017-2019 Warriors it was just unfair they added KD to a championship team. But KD outside of the Warriors has won nothing. Credit where credit is due to 2000-2002 Lakers the only team to threepeat this century. These are the best teams not Nuggets or Spurs.

They absolutely are one of the best teams of the century. There is no doubt about it.

[ChipotleWest]

Just based on watching the 2 teams play. The 2014 spurs played beautiful basketball and were incredibly balanced. I dont view the Nuggets as one of the best teams ive seen this century. I think we happen to be in a weird era where there arent many established teams. Those spurs took down prime Russ/MVP KD and the heatles. It didnt matter if parker was their highest scorer. Thats how good they were. I just don't see any reasoning that would suggest Denver has shown anything as impressive, and I don't think they are playing better basketball.

Nobody calls the 2014 Spurs one of the best teams this century but you. The 2011 Mavs took down the same teams you mentioned and swept 2x defending champ Lakers, but nobody calls them one of the best teams this century either. Maybe Lebron and KD are just overhyped and often came up small in the playoffs when faced with good defenses.

I also do not view Nuggets as one of the best teams this century either. They didn't beat anyone above a 4 seed last year. To me the best teams were 2017-2019 Warriors it was just unfair they added KD to a championship team. But KD outside of the Warriors has won nothing. Credit where credit is due to 2000-2002 Lakers the only team to threepeat this century. These are the best teams not Nuggets or Spurs.

They absolutely are one of the best teams of the century. There is no doubt about it.

You got them beating KD and Steph's Warriors? They literally had the same team with a prime Duncan instead of old Duncan and minus a 23 year old Kawhi and couldn't beat the 2000-2002 Lakers. So no they're not. They also lost to the Heat the year before. They're probably borderline top 10 of the 23 championship teams this century.

[Ambrose]

Nobody calls the 2014 Spurs one of the best teams this century but you. The 2011 Mavs took down the same teams you mentioned and swept 2x defending champ Lakers, but nobody calls them one of the best teams this century either. Maybe Lebron and KD are just overhyped and often came up small in the playoffs when faced with good defenses.

I also do not view Nuggets as one of the best teams this century either. They didn't beat anyone above a 4 seed last year. To me the best teams were 2017-2019 Warriors it was just unfair they added KD to a championship team. But KD outside of the Warriors has won nothing. Credit where credit is due to 2000-2002 Lakers the only team to threepeat this century. These are the best teams not Nuggets or Spurs.

They absolutely are one of the best teams of the century. There is no doubt about it.

You got them beating KD and Steph's Warriors? They literally had the same team with a prime Duncan instead of old Duncan and minus a 23 year old Kawhi and couldn't beat the 2000-2002 Lakers. So no they're not.

Do you know what "one of the best" means?

[ChipotleWest]

They absolutely are one of the best teams of the century. There is no doubt about it.

You got them beating KD and Steph's Warriors? They literally had the same team with a prime Duncan instead of old Duncan and minus a 23 year old Kawhi and couldn't beat the 2000-2002 Lakers. So no they're not.

Do you know what "one of the best" means?

There's been 23 championship teams this decade, some repeats including other Spurs teams. They're probably in the middle in the 10-12 range. That's not really one of the best. The third best team would be one of the best. They're not the third best team this century.

[Ambrose]

You got them beating KD and Steph's Warriors? They literally had the same team with a prime Duncan instead of old Duncan and minus a 23 year old Kawhi and couldn't beat the 2000-2002 Lakers. So no they're not.

Do you know what "one of the best" means?

There's been 23 championship teams this decade, they're probably in the middle in the 10-12 range. That's not really one of the best. The third best team would be one of the best. They're not the third best team this century.

Weird. Because someone who has put a lot more effort into analyzing the game than you have said they are exactly the 3rd best team of the century, and 7th best EVER.

10-12 of the last 23 years

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

[dhsilv2]

I had a similar reaction, but then thought about it- You're right about Vlade defensively. That said, he was a very versatile offensive player- one of the best all-around centers we've seen, racking up points, assists, blocks, etc. Keep in mind that he functioned in a system and they never really ran point through the center.

I could see the comparison of Jokic being an overpowered Vlade. Obviously, Jokic is better, but the skillset is apt.

Vlade was like an 80-85 other than 3 point shooting and shot blocking, but yeah...he was super all around. Add in Jokic's endurance is night and day, he's quicker. But Vlade was I believe bigger (unless I'm using 90's/00's glasses on size).

For sure.. I remember Vlade being someone of an enforcer at times. That said, Jokic has underrated strength.

Of course Vlade's not as good- totally agree.

I know most people will remember him on the kings, but I'll never forget this pass Magic threw him. I think it was the finals vs the bulls. It to me looked like magic was trying to be an NFL QB just throwing a bullet to Vlade and it was low, like below his waist maybe lower. No center in NBA history was gonna have the hands for that! Vlade just one hands it and goes up for an easy bucket! I'll never forget his hands!

[ChipotleWest]

Do you know what "one of the best" means?

There's been 23 championship teams this decade, they're probably in the middle in the 10-12 range. That's not really one of the best. The third best team would be one of the best. They're not the third best team this century.

Weird. Because someone who has put a lot more effort into analyzing the game than you have said they are exactly the 3rd best team of the century, and 7th best EVER.

10-12 of the last 23 years

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2012241

I don't really care about whatever weird nerd advanced stats they used to justify it, you probably wouldn't either if they had in fact argued against them being one of the best teams this century. They had literally no one scoring 17 ppg, that's unheard of and you can't say that about any other championship team this century so they may be one of the worst champions this century not best. Bottom line they aren't beating the best teams this century. Lebron is just usually a playoff choker so everyone wants to overhype the teams that beat him. If I remember correctly you're a Lebron homer and that's exactly what you're doing right now. I'm not going to engage with you anymore.

[Fencer reregistered]

Shaq was so dominant. Peak Shaq is probably the best player in the NBA.

Under current rules? I disagree.

Under the rules then? He was unstoppable.