Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[RSP83]

prime lebron could beat anyone on any given night with a bad supporting cast. jokic could never make the 2nd round without murray hitting big shots. prime lebron wasn't that reliant on the players around him.

Whatever happened to the, "Great players make other player's better" arguments? Is that no longer true?

When MJ was putting up crazy stats earlier in his career, tried to beat teams on his own. The critics was saying, "Magic and Bird makes other players better, MJ doesn't". MJ changed his approach, win championships, and the critics quiet down. For some time the "Great player make other players better" argument remains the standard when talking about the greatest players. I think that is still true to this day. And both Lebron and Jokic makes other player better.

You have to give credit to Jokic for raising the play of Gordon, Murray, MPJ. Murray isn't an All-Star, Gordon was mid in Orlando, MPJ was a struggling talented rookie with multiple injuries.

[Cubbies2120]

prime lebron could beat anyone on any given night with a bad supporting cast. jokic could never make the 2nd round without murray hitting big shots. prime lebron wasn't that reliant on the players around him.

Jokic did make the 2nd round without Murray. Clueless comment.

Jokic is the closest to being a 1-man title contender in league history.

[picko]

prime lebron could beat anyone on any given night with a bad supporting cast. jokic could never make the 2nd round without murray hitting big shots. prime lebron wasn't that reliant on the players around him.

Jokic did make the 2nd round without Murray. Clueless comment.

Jokic is the closest to being a 1-man title contender in league history.

Can we stop pretending that Jokic was a one-man show last year? Murray has consistently been outstanding in the playoffs and is the difference between winning a title and losing in the first or second round. His contribution is significant and it shouldn't be diminished purely to elevate the status of another player to win internet points in a stupid pissing contest.

They didn't achieve much of anything without Murray when he was injured. They don't win a championship last season without his immense contributions. And they'd be in all sorts of trouble this season without him also.

[ScrantonBulls]

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

You’re just taking hypotheticals and passing them as facts

I think LeBron and Shaq win 7 straight. Kobe on the heat might win a couple, maybe

I think Kobe in LeBrons body right now would be worse than current LeBron

Anyone who understands anything would say this

Cut, print, perfect!

The arguments I was presented with was hypothetical. So I responded hypothetically. Same as you too.

You claim Kobe would win more than 2 championships if he took LeBron's place in Miami. So you have him beating the Mavs, despite having a stacked team that year and getting swept by them? Or do you have him beating the all time great 2013-14 Spurs despite Wade being washed? C'mon man, there's no way you believe that. Neither of those scenarios make sense.

[CodeBreaker]

Jokic has KD-lite (MPJ) and Curry-lite (Murray)

[LaLover11]

Jokic has KD-lite (MPJ) and Curry-lite (Murray)

LeBron just needs old Durant next season and they would beat Denver

[DonaldSanders]

If Jokic continues on this trajectory, his prime will pass LeBron. 25-20-9 in a close out game, nuts stuff. All on ZERO freethrows (and he deserved more than none, c'mon).

[RSP83]

You’re just taking hypotheticals and passing them as facts

I think LeBron and Shaq win 7 straight. Kobe on the heat might win a couple, maybe

I think Kobe in LeBrons body right now would be worse than current LeBron

Anyone who understands anything would say this

Cut, print, perfect!

The arguments I was presented with was hypothetical. So I responded hypothetically. Same as you too.

You claim Kobe would win more than 2 championships if he took LeBron's place in Miami. So you have him beating the Mavs, despite having a stacked team that year and getting swept by them? Or do you have him beating the all time great 2013-14 Spurs despite Wade being washed? C'mon man, there's no way you believe that. Neither of those scenarios make sense.

You claimed Lebron would won more than 3 championships with Shaq. How are we different?

Lakers had same record as that Mavs team. So I wouldn't call them more stacked than the Mavs. That Heat team was more stacked than both. Lebron and Wade was top 3-5 players in the league, Bosh was top 10.

Ok, Kobe may not win more championship than Lebron for that Heat team. But to me that's more because Lebron is a better fit with Wade, more than Kobe. I'd still bet on Kobe over Lebron to win a 7 game series.

About pairing with Shaq, I still like Kobe better. Lebron would've looked for Shaq more. But Kobe was the better shot getter and closer to complement Shaq on the perimeter.

[LaLover11]

The arguments I was presented with was hypothetical. So I responded hypothetically. Same as you too.

You claim Kobe would win more than 2 championships if he took LeBron's place in Miami. So you have him beating the Mavs, despite having a stacked team that year and getting swept by them? Or do you have him beating the all time great 2013-14 Spurs despite Wade being washed? C'mon man, there's no way you believe that. Neither of those scenarios make sense.

You claimed Lebron would won more than 3 championships with Shaq. How are we different?

Lakers had same record as that Mavs team. So I wouldn't call them more stacked than the Mavs. That Heat team was more stacked than both. Lebron and Wade was top 3-5 players in the league, Bosh was top 10.

Ok, Kobe may not win more championship than Lebron for that Heat team. But to me that's more because Lebron is a better fit with Wade, more than Kobe. I'd still bet on Kobe over Lebron to win a 7 game series.

About pairing with Shaq, I still like Kobe better. Lebron would've looked for Shaq more. But Kobe was the better shot getter and closer to complement Shaq on the perimeter.

There's so much to say about this but I'll just say the only reason Shaq left was because KB24 didn't pass it enough to his team and Especially to Shaq which pisses him off.

LeBron is the exact player Shaq would've love to have to stay the #1 option and dominate in the paint with the Lakers!!! They literally broke up a Dynasty because of KB24 and wanting to be the #1 option.

Young LeBron and Lakers Shaq would've been the two most physically dominate players the NBA has ever seen playing together. Shaq would've been happy and motivated being the #1 go to guy and LeBron would've been happy to have help compared to playing with Big Z, Delonte West, Bobbie Gibson, Anderson lol

Give LeBron Lakers Shaq with the Cavs in his first stint and he would've won at least 4 rings in 7 years minimum.
He was making the finals by himself in 2007 and going 40ppg with 8ast/8reb with terrible teammates.

They would've been the most physically dominate Duo the NBA has ever seen

[RSP83]

So if LeBron dictated where he wouldn't play from BEFORE he was drafted (Kobe saying he wouldn't play for the Nets) and got traded to Lakers, played with prime Shaq, then played with Lau, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, etc., all while being coached by Phil Jackson, the results would be the same? LeBron with prime Shaq easily wins more than 3 championships, on account of him being clearly better than Kobe at every stage of his career... He probably doesn't drive Shaq out either.

You're conveniently ignoring literally ALL context. Literally anybody with rudimentary basketball knowledge would take LeBron over Kobe if they could choose.

I take it you would choose Robert Horry over Kobe though. He just got better results.

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

Lol yeah.. no. A leader don't treat other people under his wing like thrash because he doesn't have enough "accolades" under his belt. A leader is someone you can seek for guidance and if you can't even have a little conversation with him and don't respect minimum contract players like a normal human being because he think highly of himself, that's a horrible person regardless how much he achieve in his career and certainly not a leader.

Read on Twitter

I didn't say Kobe was a nice guy, he's infamous for not being liked by many of his teammates, especially younger Kobe. There's Kobe the person, and he ran Shaq out of town. There's a lot of commentary as well on how he continue to grew as a leader. And not all leaders are nice guys. You ignore the other teammates that respect and credit Kobe. He sets the bar.

Read on Twitter

Kobe's leadership: https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-he-embraced-the-team-and-his-teammates-kobe-bryants-attempts-to-grow-close-to-his-teammates-in-2009-significantly-improved-his-leadership-skills/

[Black Jack]

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

Lol yeah.. no. A leader don't treat other people under his wing like thrash because he doesn't have enough "accolades" under his belt. A leader is someone you can seek for guidance and if you can't even have a little conversation with him and don't respect minimum contract players like a normal human being because he think highly of himself, that's a horrible person regardless how much he achieve in his career and certainly not a leader.

Read on Twitter

I didn't say Kobe was a nice guy, he's infamous for not being liked by many of his teammates, especially younger Kobe. There's Kobe the person, and he ran Shaq out of town. There's a lot of commentary as well on how he continue to grew as a leader. And not all leaders are nice guys. You ignore the other teammates that respect and credit Kobe. He sets the bar.

Read on Twitter

Kobe's leadership: https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-he-embraced-the-team-and-his-teammates-kobe-bryants-attempts-to-grow-close-to-his-teammates-in-2009-significantly-improved-his-leadership-skills/

So why was Kobe so nasty to Smush and nice to Adam?

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic is better, IMO.

Did it without superstar help and special treatment.

Heck...did it without a single all star.

Jokic is the better player and teammate.

U should look up Jamal Murray’s playoff stats. This narrative serves folks by name only

[DimesandKnicks]

Guess what, Murray and MPJ were injured a lot. But Jokic stayed.
LeBron chose his teammates, colluded with the 2nd and 4th players ranked by efficiency rating the previous season, played for maybe the best coach (Spo) for an amazing organization (Heat). But then chose to leave. So everything is on him. No excuses.

Oh so now we're moving the goalposts, good one casual. Btw genius, if LeBron stayed the heat would've lost both Bosh and Wade with no avenue to retool due to cap space constraints. Jokic is lucky he got drafted to a class organization that developed players properly. Also Spo was a bum coach his first year and needed to go learn how to coach an offense from a goddamn college football coach in the 2011 off-season LMFAO. Y'all really don't Know ball if these are the takes you're falling for when Jokic has the best roster and arguable best coaching staff in the league.

Same casuals who fell for the propaganda that Jordan was the best player who will ever live when he dominated in a trash era and similarly had the best roster and coaching staff in the league. Call me when Jokic beats comp and had to do it without all these crutches the way LeBron took flawed 2012, 2013, and 2016 casts to the chip and then won one with average Vogel coaching in 2020

I doubt that you can count but anyway I make a list

Those players was all in theirs prime

At cavs first stint
He played prime Iglauskas an all-star
Then prime larry hughes all-star an all-defence
Carlos Boozer was run and saved himself
Mo williams all-star
Antawan Jamisson all-star

At miami

Dwayne Wade all-nba, fmvp, all-star
Chris bosh all-naba etc etc
Ray Allen (actually not in his prime but won a ring )

at cavs second stint

Kyrie Irving all-nba
Kevin Love all-nba
Isaiah thomas all-nba 5th in mvp

At lakers

Brondon İngram
Julius Randle
Davis
Westbrook

Could you count it this ? They are all in their primes or near theirs prime.

Maybe you cant, this need to has some proficency. 15 player all of them in their prime or one or two year away in their prime.

All of them except Ray allen was all-star nearby.

Could you say that for Jokic?

And Mike Malone not a good coach, Jokic make seems him as a good coach, like every player plays with him.

Personal attacks are not allowed, everyone. Debate the post as strongly as you'd like but don't insults the poster. I believe Heej was the fist one to call someone a moron in this thread but that doesn't make it a moron free for all where we all just call each other a moron now lol. -b

Bringing up post prime Larry Hughes and Jamison as “all-stars” is nasty work

[Zadeh]

Oh so now we're moving the goalposts, good one casual. Btw genius, if LeBron stayed the heat would've lost both Bosh and Wade with no avenue to retool due to cap space constraints. Jokic is lucky he got drafted to a class organization that developed players properly. Also Spo was a bum coach his first year and needed to go learn how to coach an offense from a goddamn college football coach in the 2011 off-season LMFAO. Y'all really don't Know ball if these are the takes you're falling for when Jokic has the best roster and arguable best coaching staff in the league.

Same casuals who fell for the propaganda that Jordan was the best player who will ever live when he dominated in a trash era and similarly had the best roster and coaching staff in the league. Call me when Jokic beats comp and had to do it without all these crutches the way LeBron took flawed 2012, 2013, and 2016 casts to the chip and then won one with average Vogel coaching in 2020

I doubt that you can count but anyway I make a list

Those players was all in theirs prime

At cavs first stint
He played prime Iglauskas an all-star
Then prime larry hughes all-star an all-defence
Carlos Boozer was run and saved himself
Mo williams all-star
Antawan Jamisson all-star

At miami

Dwayne Wade all-nba, fmvp, all-star
Chris bosh all-naba etc etc
Ray Allen (actually not in his prime but won a ring )

at cavs second stint

Kyrie Irving all-nba
Kevin Love all-nba
Isaiah thomas all-nba 5th in mvp

At lakers

Brondon İngram
Julius Randle
Davis
Westbrook

Could you count it this ? They are all in their primes or near theirs prime.

Maybe you cant, this need to has some proficency. 15 player all of them in their prime or one or two year away in their prime.

All of them except Ray allen was all-star nearby.

Could you say that for Jokic?

And Mike Malone not a good coach, Jokic make seems him as a good coach, like every player plays with him.

Personal attacks are not allowed, everyone. Debate the post as strongly as you'd like but don't insults the poster. I believe Heej was the fist one to call someone a moron in this thread but that doesn't make it a moron free for all where we all just call each other a moron now lol. -b

Bringing up post prime Larry Hughes and Jamison as “all-stars” is nasty work

Larry Hughes all star is my mistake but he is all defensive, led the league in steals, also 22 ppg player before Lebron.
Antawan is all star in 2008 played with lebron in 2010

[DimesandKnicks]

I doubt that you can count but anyway I make a list

Those players was all in theirs prime

At cavs first stint
He played prime Iglauskas an all-star
Then prime larry hughes all-star an all-defence
Carlos Boozer was run and saved himself
Mo williams all-star
Antawan Jamisson all-star

At miami

Dwayne Wade all-nba, fmvp, all-star
Chris bosh all-naba etc etc
Ray Allen (actually not in his prime but won a ring )

at cavs second stint

Kyrie Irving all-nba
Kevin Love all-nba
Isaiah thomas all-nba 5th in mvp

At lakers

Brondon İngram
Julius Randle
Davis
Westbrook

Could you count it this ? They are all in their primes or near theirs prime.

Maybe you cant, this need to has some proficency. 15 player all of them in their prime or one or two year away in their prime.

All of them except Ray allen was all-star nearby.

Could you say that for Jokic?

And Mike Malone not a good coach, Jokic make seems him as a good coach, like every player plays with him.

Personal attacks are not allowed, everyone. Debate the post as strongly as you'd like but don't insults the poster. I believe Heej was the fist one to call someone a moron in this thread but that doesn't make it a moron free for all where we all just call each other a moron now lol. -b

Bringing up post prime Larry Hughes and Jamison as “all-stars” is nasty work

Larry Hughes all star is my mistake but he is all defensive, led the league in steals, also 22 ppg player before Lebron.
Antawan is all star in 2008 played with lebron in 2010

Yes, Hughes was all of those things…then he broke his foot (I believe).

Jamison joined Cleveland at 33 after playing 41 games the year before so I can only assume he was coming off injury too.

I’m all for bb reference but you also need to know what was going on and what stage those players were in in their career. Guys like Randle and Ingrid were babies, hardly close to all nba level players.

[Gregoire]

8-1 in playoffs... Man, Bron need to rebuild himself after it...

[TravisScott55]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

[imDatknicksTape]

The weekly post about the yt man going to be the GOAT. sigh...

[Infinite Llamas]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

[Jaqua92]

People were tough on Jokic last night for playing passively, and not having a good game in a closeout.

Yet, he was aggressive when he needed to, and finished his bad game with 25/20/9 on 57% shooting. This would be a good offensive game for peak LeBron. Not great. But a good game.

LeBron's defense swings it here in terms of peak, and his ability to relentlessly attack the hoop adds to it.

But offensively? You can make the case that Jokic is peaking as high as LeBron has.

Overall? I'd still take Miami LeBron, and maybe 2018 playoff LeBron over Jokic.

Offensively, Jokic is as good as anyone ever.

Jokic also does have it in him to play good defense in the paint. There were two possessions where he put in more effort and was quicker.

But he doesn't always put that much effort in unless he needs to