Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[NoStatsGuy]

people forget lebron went vs 2 of the best dynasties we ever had 7 out of 10 times in the finals. Im not taking anything away from jokic titels.

but beating the spurs and warrios means something if you ask me. Jokic played the warriors in 22 and lost in 5 and he beat the LMA/Derozan/Murray spurs 2019. . The nuggest have been an amazing team and jokic has been out of this world. but i dont exactly love the type of competition compared to lebrons.

I'm sure you agree that level of competition shouldn't just mean finals, but conference strength as well. If anything, it should mean that first.

oh yea for sure. but the finals are what validates players with a ring, thats the thing. therefore the competition in the finals matters a bit more imo.

Besides, overall the west has been stronger on average, theres no doubt about that. But its not as crazy as people make it out to be, Lebron also had his east battles with the celtics, pistons, Orlando had a good couple years, etc. its not like these were trash teams. the 1st round on average might have been a bit easier because you potentially play a sub 40 win team at that time but thats really it.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01.html#all_playoffs-series

check these playoffs runs from jokic. Again, im not taking anything away from his success and him as a player, i think he will go down as the GOAT big man and possibly very high on alltime lists. But i dont see how these teams he played were so much better than what lebron went through. And in 2020 he lost to lebron in the playoffs aswell.

[Felixians4]

Hell. Why so many topics every day here?? People bored

[SeattleJazzFan]

Jokic is better, IMO.

Did it without superstar help and special treatment.

Heck...did it without a single all star.

Jokic is the better player and teammate.

if we're going to have this conversation about lebron, we need to have it about MJ. everything you just said (and most of the arguments in this thread, tbh) could be said about MJ as well.

[tsherkin]

Hell. Why so many topics every day here?? People bored

You're complaining that the forum is active?

[No-more-rings]

I still don’t see it as a given that Jokic is even better offensively, let alone overall given Lebron holds a clear defensive advantage. With that said, I find it pretty unlikely that Jokic winds up with a better career than Lebron. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re talking about him as an arguable top 5 goat here in about 5-6 years though. He has the talent, and he’s very likely to end up with more rings.

3 more rings is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ask. It's nearly impossible to expect any player to ever do that again. It'll happen, but it'll take a combination of luck, talent, and help.

I didn’t mean more rings than Lebron, I meant more rings than he currently has which is only 1.

[Felixians4]

Hell. Why so many topics every day here?? People bored

You're complaining that the forum is active?

Complaining on many same topics all the time, sometimes pretty much identical name od topic too. Jokić would never be LeBron level, on topic.

[tsherkin]

Hell. Why so many topics every day here?? People bored

You're complaining that the forum is active?

Complaining on many same topics all the time, sometimes pretty much identical name od topic too. Jokić would never be LeBron level, on topic.

Yeah, it happens. It's keeping folk busy. Some will get merged, some won't. Nothing worth complaining about, though.

[Froob]

Cmon man

[Froob]

Hell. Why so many topics every day here?? People bored

Unemployment, time theft, trying to escape a harsh reality. These are many reasons I suspect

[dhsilv2]

I still don’t see it as a given that Jokic is even better offensively, let alone overall given Lebron holds a clear defensive advantage. With that said, I find it pretty unlikely that Jokic winds up with a better career than Lebron. I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re talking about him as an arguable top 5 goat here in about 5-6 years though. He has the talent, and he’s very likely to end up with more rings.

3 more rings is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ask. It's nearly impossible to expect any player to ever do that again. It'll happen, but it'll take a combination of luck, talent, and help.

I didn’t mean more rings than Lebron, I meant more rings than he currently has which is only 1.

Oh ok, then that's somewhat reasonable given I'd say they're a strong contender this year. Though even then...Boston has to be the favorite right? And nothing is promised going forward. Denver has just 1 title in their nba history.

outside of the lakers and celtics how many guys in NBA history have 3 titles? MJ, Duncan, Curry and their teammates? James Jones with Lebron (who had 3 non lakers but he played for the lakers). OH Wade.

But yeah if you didn't play with Boston, lakers (both cities have to be counted), Jordan, Duncan, Curry, or Lebron...nobody in nba history as 3 rings.

[Airmiess]

LeBron is putting up all nba numbers at 40, people need to start using context clues. If he was in his prime in this era he would be game breaking.

[No-more-rings]

3 more rings is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ask. It's nearly impossible to expect any player to ever do that again. It'll happen, but it'll take a combination of luck, talent, and help.

I didn’t mean more rings than Lebron, I meant more rings than he currently has which is only 1.

Oh ok, then that's somewhat reasonable given I'd say they're a strong contender this year. Though even then...Boston has to be the favorite right? And nothing is promised going forward. Denver has just 1 title in their nba history.

Well of course nothing is promised, that goes without saying. And no I don’t see Boston as the favorite actually. They’ll fold like they always do.

[RSP83]

If you can't see why LeBron is easily better than Kobe, I'm afraid you just aren't very knowledgeable about basketball. It isn't particularly close and it doesn't take intense analysis to see why LeBron is clearly better than Kobe.

You miss my point. What is 'Better' really mean? Yes, Lebron is more talented than Kobe, but for the talent that he has, Kobe produce better result. I go back to what I said, other than longevity I don't think Lebron create too much separation with guys who's regarded below him, such as Kobe and Duncan. If there's an NBA draft pick of HoF caliber NBA player, why do you have to pick Lebron over Kobe or Duncan? I can understand people picking Lebron, but Kobe over Lebron would've been fine too.

So if LeBron dictated where he wouldn't play from BEFORE he was drafted (Kobe saying he wouldn't play for the Nets) and got traded to Lakers, played with prime Shaq, then played with Lau, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, etc., all while being coached by Phil Jackson, the results would be the same? LeBron with prime Shaq easily wins more than 3 championships, on account of him being clearly better than Kobe at every stage of his career... He probably doesn't drive Shaq out either.

You're conveniently ignoring literally ALL context. Literally anybody with rudimentary basketball knowledge would take LeBron over Kobe if they could choose.

I take it you would choose Robert Horry over Kobe though. He just got better results.

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

[tsherkin]

But yeah if you didn't play with Boston, lakers (both cities have to be counted), Jordan, Duncan, Curry, or Lebron...nobody in nba history as 3 rings.

60s Dynasty. 80s dynasties. 90s dynasty. 00s dynasties. 2010s dynasties.

"If you haven't played for one of the dynasties we've seen in basically every decade, then you don't have dynasty-level ring count."

Sure, but there's only so much weight to that observation, because it connects decade to decade from the beginning of a sport which is largely defined BY dynasties (outside of the 70s).

[PedroFlu]

Yes, I do think peak Jokic is better than Peak LeBron, peak Kobe, peak Kawhi, peak Curry, peak Giannis, even peak Shaq. I'll never know how peak Jordan actually felt/played at the time (90-93), but I think it's absolutely possible Jokic is flat out better. Same for Magic, Bird, Kareem, Robinson.

If Jokic wins it again this year, doing what he's been doing so far, yes, I think it would be a reasonable take. Best peak ever.

[One Last Shot]

You miss my point. What is 'Better' really mean? Yes, Lebron is more talented than Kobe, but for the talent that he has, Kobe produce better result. I go back to what I said, other than longevity I don't think Lebron create too much separation with guys who's regarded below him, such as Kobe and Duncan. If there's an NBA draft pick of HoF caliber NBA player, why do you have to pick Lebron over Kobe or Duncan? I can understand people picking Lebron, but Kobe over Lebron would've been fine too.

So if LeBron dictated where he wouldn't play from BEFORE he was drafted (Kobe saying he wouldn't play for the Nets) and got traded to Lakers, played with prime Shaq, then played with Lau, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, etc., all while being coached by Phil Jackson, the results would be the same? LeBron with prime Shaq easily wins more than 3 championships, on account of him being clearly better than Kobe at every stage of his career... He probably doesn't drive Shaq out either.

You're conveniently ignoring literally ALL context. Literally anybody with rudimentary basketball knowledge would take LeBron over Kobe if they could choose.

I take it you would choose Robert Horry over Kobe though. He just got better results.

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

Lol yeah.. no. A leader don't treat other people under his wing like thrash because he doesn't have enough "accolades" under his belt. A leader is someone you can seek for guidance and if you can't even have a little conversation with him and don't respect minimum contract players like a normal human being because he think highly of himself, that's a horrible person regardless how much he achieve in his career and certainly not a leader.

Read on Twitter

[KyRo23]

You miss my point. What is 'Better' really mean? Yes, Lebron is more talented than Kobe, but for the talent that he has, Kobe produce better result. I go back to what I said, other than longevity I don't think Lebron create too much separation with guys who's regarded below him, such as Kobe and Duncan. If there's an NBA draft pick of HoF caliber NBA player, why do you have to pick Lebron over Kobe or Duncan? I can understand people picking Lebron, but Kobe over Lebron would've been fine too.

So if LeBron dictated where he wouldn't play from BEFORE he was drafted (Kobe saying he wouldn't play for the Nets) and got traded to Lakers, played with prime Shaq, then played with Lau, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, etc., all while being coached by Phil Jackson, the results would be the same? LeBron with prime Shaq easily wins more than 3 championships, on account of him being clearly better than Kobe at every stage of his career... He probably doesn't drive Shaq out either.

You're conveniently ignoring literally ALL context. Literally anybody with rudimentary basketball knowledge would take LeBron over Kobe if they could choose.

I take it you would choose Robert Horry over Kobe though. He just got better results.

Lol. Who's in their right mind would choose Robert Horry over Kobe?

LeBron with prime Shaq could win 3. But Kobe with Wade and Bosh easily win more than 2 championships.

No... YOU would take LeBron over Kobe. I wouldn't. Just because LeBron is a better basketball player than Kobe doesn't mean I would trust him more to lead my team over Kobe. And you're talking as if Kobe was some unskilled basketball player.

LeBron is still healthy and not far from his prime, he can still jump out of the gym, he's skill is as good as ever. His basketball IQ is the highest it's ever been with experience. If he's currently on the decline, well even in his decline he's still as good as top 5 players in the league. Despite that he's struggling to lead his Lakers team, with Anthony Davis another Top 75 player on his team. I hate that fans of LeBron praises his longevity being this productive at 39. But then say, "he's already 39", when people ask, "why Isn't the Lakers better with LeBron putting up such production?". Put Kobe in LeBron's freakishly fit 39 year old body, the Lakers would be much better.

You're conveniently ignoring the mental side of the game. Literally anybody who understands importance of leadership and mental aspect of the game, would take Kobe over LeBron if they could choose.

You’re just taking hypotheticals and passing them as facts

I think LeBron and Shaq win 7 straight. Kobe on the heat might win a couple, maybe

I think Kobe in LeBrons body right now would be worse than current LeBron

Anyone who understands anything would say this

Cut, print, perfect!

[dhsilv2]

But yeah if you didn't play with Boston, lakers (both cities have to be counted), Jordan, Duncan, Curry, or Lebron...nobody in nba history as 3 rings.

60s Dynasty. 80s dynasties. 90s dynasty. 00s dynasties. 2010s dynasties.

"If you haven't played for one of the dynasties we've seen in basically every decade, then you don't have dynasty-level ring count."

Sure, but there's only so much weight to that observation, because it connects decade to decade from the beginning of a sport which is largely defined BY dynasties (outside of the 70s).

Kinda just points out that you have to be on a dynasty to get multiple rings which is kinda the point. To get multiple titles is just freaking hard and lets not act like it generally requires those dynasties to be in right locations. I'd assume over time we might see Miami for example become a destination while Boston won't be. But we're going to see certain teams with more success that has nothing to do with the player or I guess less to do.

[Hans1984]

No.No.Never.

[tsherkin]

Kinda just points out that you have to be on a dynasty to get multiple rings which is kinda the point. To get multiple titles is just freaking hard and lets not act like it generally requires those dynasties to be in right locations.

Right, what I'm saying is that it isn't really an informative thing. Yes, you need to be on a dynasty to get lots of rings. Or you need to fashion that dynasty wherever you go, which basically only Lebron has done. You know what I mean?