Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[dennythedino]

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

[Bash1676]

I think it deserves his own thread

Jokic is more efficient, more clutch, better teammate, doesn't get refs' calls ( he could have won in 2020 ), and he is better with his attitude.

I don't see where Lebron is better , except for media hype...

Quite obvious I am not a fan of the new generation crowing lebro as the goat when there are better players before him. Yet,Lebron is in my MT Rushmore behind Jordan,Kareem,kobe. After that,it is lebron for me. We all have our preferences. I will pick the players I chose because they played both end of the court. Magic and Bird were not good on defense but they seem to get a pass. We criticize the new players for being one dimensional but give other greats a pass.

Lebron is way over Jokic. It's an insult to even compare Jokic to lebron. You should even ponder the fact that we are having this conversation about a 39 year old player against a player in his twenties I believe. Jokic is great and I believe he has been the best player in the leaque for the past 2 years at the very least. He needs to be given his flowers. He is not in the top 12 yet but will Crack it very soon. Lebron is top 5 at worst

[xchange55]

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

My post was to mainly point out the CLE rosters were not that bad. It's not like they had a bunch of rookie contracts that of guys who didn't pan out. Plenty of establshed players.

Murry is borderline all star at best. Nobody talked about this guy before last year. I'm not saying he isn't a very good player, but after several years in the league he didn't reach upper echelon.

[Roy T]

Jokic has a better 2-way supporting cast plus coaching staff than LeBron has ever had outside of 2013 pre-Wade injury

I‘d take prime Irving and Love over Murray and Porter Jr. all day every day. The cavs had a pretty decent roster back then.

I think that Spoelstra is a better coach than Mike Malone, but it’s pretty close.

All in all LeBron had everything he needed to succeed, but he underperformed. It is what it is. I don’t think you can say the same about Jokic.

[hardenASG13]

I love how tsherkin tells you Jokic has a case against prime LBJ and you dismiss it, state that 39yr old LeBron was 'close' and then state Jokic fans ("fanatics") are failing to remember him correctly.

We remember - and we still think Jokic has a case as backed up by advanced metrics + tsherkin's assessment.

You're now trying to make a case where there isn't one to be had. Take the L!

Answer this directly. Do you think the gap between Jokic and 39 year old Lebron in this series was larger than the gap between Prime Lebron and 39 year old Lebron? I don't, but if you do please explain why.

I got one for you. Since you like hypotheticals so much. If Jokic replaces Lebron on the Heat do they lose to Dirk and the Mavs in the finals?

P.S. I have Lebron over Jokic for peak right now. It is not fair Jokic’s peak is not done so too early. But Lebron for sure over Jokic for peak.

I'm not sure, I've never seen Jokic on that team or in that matchup. For what it's worth, I think if the series were played 10 times, the Heat win that 7 or 8 times out of 10 as it was. But they didn't.

My hypothetical isn't really a hypothetical though, it's a point. That point being, we are comparing peak (current) Jokic vs peak Lebron in this thread. We just saw peak Jokic play against 39 year old Lebron. Jokic was better, but not by much imo. I then imagine what prime lebron would've looked like in the series this year, which unlike your hypothetical, I've seen lebrons peak. He would've had much more of an impact in this series. You cant deny that. So much so, that he would've been the best player in the series in his prime.......as he almost was, and is certainly not in his prime currently. Therefore it think it speaks to just how good Lebron was on his prime, which is better than Jokic. I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this year's nuggets/Lakers series based on what I saw and how well he did at age 39.

[dhsilv2]

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

No, Murray is NOT clear allstar level. Stop this complete BS! The league is better than it was with Mo Willaims! And jokic has to compete against that reality!

[dhsilv2]

Answer this directly. Do you think the gap between Jokic and 39 year old Lebron in this series was larger than the gap between Prime Lebron and 39 year old Lebron? I don't, but if you do please explain why.

I got one for you. Since you like hypotheticals so much. If Jokic replaces Lebron on the Heat do they lose to Dirk and the Mavs in the finals?

P.S. I have Lebron over Jokic for peak right now. It is not fair Jokic’s peak is not done so too early. But Lebron for sure over Jokic for peak.

I'm not sure, I've never seen Jokic on that team or in that matchup. For what it's worth, I think if the series were played 10 times, the Heat win that 7 or 8 times out of 10 as it was. But they didn't.

My hypothetical isn't really a hypothetical though, it's a point. That point being, we are comparing peak (current) Jokic vs peak Lebron in this thread. We just saw peak Jokic play against 39 year old Lebron. Jokic was better, but not by much imo. I then imagine what prime lebron would've looked like in the series this year, which unlike your hypothetical, I've seen lebrons peak. He would've had much more of an impact in this series. You cant deny that. So much so, that he would've been the best player in the series in his prime.......as he almost was, and is certainly not in his prime currently. Therefore it think it speaks to just how good Lebron was on his prime, which is better than Jokic. I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this year's nuggets/Lakers series based on what I saw and how well he did at age 39.

How do you go about quantifying better? I'm just wondering because we as humans need to use numbers to really do a scale. It's just how we work. But numbers are tough because our views are so emotional and subjective. But if we can't put numbers down, we can't actually believe ourselves. So can you do that? What are the numbers for you? How much better was Jokic this series vs 39 lebron vs peak lebron vs not at all the same opponents and rules so you're subjectively adjusting to do this?

And can you show some work so we can see how you did the math?

[DimesandKnicks]

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

No, Murray is NOT clear allstar level. Stop this complete BS! The league is better than it was with Mo Willaims! And jokic has to compete against that reality!

He really is. 27 and 7 in the playoffs where it matters. And anyone who watches basketball is taking Murray, Gordon, and Porter over pre-retired Shaq (I don’t get why you guys keep bringing up players that are clearly over the hill) 33 year old Jamison and Mo Williams who was probably a tier above delonte west and Daniel Gibson. I don’t know why we’re trying to act like these are great players.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic has a better 2-way supporting cast plus coaching staff than LeBron has ever had outside of 2013 pre-Wade injury

I‘d take prime Irving and Love over Murray and Porter Jr. all day every day. The cavs had a pretty decent roster back then.

I think that Spoelstra is a better coach than Mike Malone, but it’s pretty close.

All in all LeBron had everything he needed to succeed, but he underperformed. It is what it is. I don’t think you can say the same about Jokic.

Prime love was fat and played the Timberwolves, the Kevin Love who played in Cleveland, particularly in the playoffs isn’t more than two tiers above the Kevin Love playing for Miami

[dhsilv2]

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

No, Murray is NOT clear allstar level. Stop this complete BS! The league is better than it was with Mo Willaims! And jokic has to compete against that reality!

He really is. 27 and 7 in the playoffs where it matters. And anyone who watches basketball is taking Murray, Gordon, and Porter over pre-retired Shaq (I don’t get why you guys keep bringing up players that are clearly over the hill) 33 year old Jamison and Mo Williams who was probably a tier above delonte west and Daniel Gibson. I don’t know why we’re trying to act like these are great players.

You're just wrong....I feel sorry here because I'd like to go more in depth, but this is such a stupid basis. If you want to compare start that. And we can discuss the value of defense vs offense.

[hardenASG13]

I got one for you. Since you like hypotheticals so much. If Jokic replaces Lebron on the Heat do they lose to Dirk and the Mavs in the finals?

P.S. I have Lebron over Jokic for peak right now. It is not fair Jokic’s peak is not done so too early. But Lebron for sure over Jokic for peak.

I'm not sure, I've never seen Jokic on that team or in that matchup. For what it's worth, I think if the series were played 10 times, the Heat win that 7 or 8 times out of 10 as it was. But they didn't.

My hypothetical isn't really a hypothetical though, it's a point. That point being, we are comparing peak (current) Jokic vs peak Lebron in this thread. We just saw peak Jokic play against 39 year old Lebron. Jokic was better, but not by much imo. I then imagine what prime lebron would've looked like in the series this year, which unlike your hypothetical, I've seen lebrons peak. He would've had much more of an impact in this series. You cant deny that. So much so, that he would've been the best player in the series in his prime.......as he almost was, and is certainly not in his prime currently. Therefore it think it speaks to just how good Lebron was on his prime, which is better than Jokic. I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this year's nuggets/Lakers series based on what I saw and how well he did at age 39.

How do you go about quantifying better? I'm just wondering because we as humans need to use numbers to really do a scale. It's just how we work. But numbers are tough because our views are so emotional and subjective. But if we can't put numbers down, we can't actually believe ourselves. So can you do that? What are the numbers for you? How much better was Jokic this series vs 39 lebron vs peak lebron vs not at all the same opponents and rules so you're subjectively adjusting to do this?

And can you show some work so we can see how you did the math?

Haha no. That's not how people discuss basketball most of the time. They talk about what they saw. I just saw 39 year old play almost as well as prime jokic. I've also seen prime Lebron, alot. I know he was much better than he is now. You must know this too. So if he was much better than how he played in this series (which he was, consistently, for a lot of years), that would pretty easily have made him the best player in this series. He almost was at this stage! He was much better than his current version, which kind of went toe to toe vs. Prime Jokic. That gives evidence to the fact that in his prime he was on another level as player, no matter what stats you want to throw out there. Some people prefer to think/talk about basketball rather than just comparing numbers from (widely acknowledged) flawed ranking systems whose formulas they may or may not know or understand.

[DimesandKnicks]

No, Murray is NOT clear allstar level. Stop this complete BS! The league is better than it was with Mo Willaims! And jokic has to compete against that reality!

He really is. 27 and 7 in the playoffs where it matters. And anyone who watches basketball is taking Murray, Gordon, and Porter over pre-retired Shaq (I don’t get why you guys keep bringing up players that are clearly over the hill) 33 year old Jamison and Mo Williams who was probably a tier above delonte west and Daniel Gibson. I don’t know why we’re trying to act like these are great players.

You're just wrong....I feel sorry here because I'd like to go more in depth, but this is such a stupid basis. If you want to compare start that. And we can discuss the value of defense vs offense.

Your entitled to your opinion but your objectively wrong. Bolding Shaq like he was a difference maker a year before retiring is just nonsense. No one at the time was like omg Shaq is on the Cavs. He had a fork stuck in him. He was a roll player at best. He was freaking 37. Antwan Jamison was past his prime chipping 15. What else was he doing besides scoring? Are we really bringing up Mo Williams as a legitimate second option for a championship contender? And in the same breath acting like Murray isn’t damn near a superstar in the playoffs? He averaged damn near 27 7 and 6 on close to 50 40 90 splits the year they won their championship. 20 6 and 10 in the finals and you all are bringing up Mo Williams!? Tf

Where the heck were you guys when Lebron was making these runs for the cavs. None of these players can hold Murray’s jock strap

[SeanieWard]

I love Jokic and I think there's a case to me made that he is a better offensive player than peak Bron due to some of the things you stated but in Bron's prime there were 2 times where he won MVP and was runner up for DPOY. While I think Jokic's defense is actually solid, he's no where near the defensive player that Bron was in his prime and I rank him lower than Bron because of that every time

[JN61]

If Lebron gets held to a 6 championship MJ standard then Jokic should be held to a 4.

But he is not by large crowd so jokic needs even less accolades to pass LeBron as far as I am concerned.

I'm confused. Is your standard dependent on the amount of chatter/hype a player receives?

Same logic that Lebron fans are using, isn't it? For consistency's sake they should keep the same energy for current/future players as well. The bar should be only set lower and lower as we go on. Their logic, not mine. In 150 years guy who makes one all-star game should be placed higher than Lebron on all-time rankings.

[JN61]

If Lebron gets held to a 6 championship MJ standard then Jokic should be held to a 4.

But he is not by large crowd so jokic needs even less accolades to pass LeBron as far as I am concerned.

So Joker's already passed your boy, Durant?

I would say it's just matter of time. If Jokic wins this year MVP + championship he has extremely close case to be above both Curry and Durant which are both that +/- 20 range. However I would still like to see 2-3 more years of body of work just because I like players having longer careers than 5 years, but we know we are going to get it.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not sure, I've never seen Jokic on that team or in that matchup. For what it's worth, I think if the series were played 10 times, the Heat win that 7 or 8 times out of 10 as it was. But they didn't.

My hypothetical isn't really a hypothetical though, it's a point. That point being, we are comparing peak (current) Jokic vs peak Lebron in this thread. We just saw peak Jokic play against 39 year old Lebron. Jokic was better, but not by much imo. I then imagine what prime lebron would've looked like in the series this year, which unlike your hypothetical, I've seen lebrons peak. He would've had much more of an impact in this series. You cant deny that. So much so, that he would've been the best player in the series in his prime.......as he almost was, and is certainly not in his prime currently. Therefore it think it speaks to just how good Lebron was on his prime, which is better than Jokic. I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this year's nuggets/Lakers series based on what I saw and how well he did at age 39.

How do you go about quantifying better? I'm just wondering because we as humans need to use numbers to really do a scale. It's just how we work. But numbers are tough because our views are so emotional and subjective. But if we can't put numbers down, we can't actually believe ourselves. So can you do that? What are the numbers for you? How much better was Jokic this series vs 39 lebron vs peak lebron vs not at all the same opponents and rules so you're subjectively adjusting to do this?

And can you show some work so we can see how you did the math?

Haha no. That's not how people discuss basketball most of the time. They talk about what they saw. I just saw 39 year old play almost as well as prime jokic. I've also seen prime Lebron, alot. I know he was much better than he is now. You must know this too. So if he was much better than how he played in this series (which he was, consistently, for a lot of years), that would pretty easily have made him the best player in this series. He almost was at this stage! He was much better than his current version, which kind of went toe to toe vs. Prime Jokic. That gives evidence to the fact that in his prime he was on another level as player, no matter what stats you want to throw out there. Some people prefer to think/talk about basketball rather than just comparing numbers from (widely acknowledged) flawed ranking systems whose formulas they may or may not know or understand.

I just saw 39 year old Lebron not look remotely close to being as good as Jokic. See how useless that is? Sure it's what I saw. But I can put numbers to it. I can show that Jokic had a 14+ BPM for the series while Lebron had a 10.

You've got "I feel"

[dhsilv2]

He really is. 27 and 7 in the playoffs where it matters. And anyone who watches basketball is taking Murray, Gordon, and Porter over pre-retired Shaq (I don’t get why you guys keep bringing up players that are clearly over the hill) 33 year old Jamison and Mo Williams who was probably a tier above delonte west and Daniel Gibson. I don’t know why we’re trying to act like these are great players.

You're just wrong....I feel sorry here because I'd like to go more in depth, but this is such a stupid basis. If you want to compare start that. And we can discuss the value of defense vs offense.

Your entitled to your opinion but your objectively wrong. Bolding Shaq like he was a difference maker a year before retiring is just nonsense. No one at the time was like omg Shaq is on the Cavs. He had a fork stuck in him. He was a roll player at best. He was freaking 37. Antwan Jamison was past his prime chipping 15. What else was he doing besides scoring? Are we really bringing up Mo Williams as a legitimate second option for a championship contender? And in the same breath acting like Murray isn’t damn near a superstar in the playoffs? He averaged damn near 27 7 and 6 on close to 50 40 90 splits the year they won their championship. 20 6 and 10 in the finals and you all are bringing up Mo Williams!? Tf

Where the heck were you guys when Lebron was making these runs for the cavs. None of these players can hold Murray’s jock strap

You can't just compare Murray in 2024 to Ilgauskas in 2007 or Mo Williams in 2009 without starting with how much better the league is today vs then.

[DimesandKnicks]

You're just wrong....I feel sorry here because I'd like to go more in depth, but this is such a stupid basis. If you want to compare start that. And we can discuss the value of defense vs offense.

Your entitled to your opinion but your objectively wrong. Bolding Shaq like he was a difference maker a year before retiring is just nonsense. No one at the time was like omg Shaq is on the Cavs. He had a fork stuck in him. He was a roll player at best. He was freaking 37. Antwan Jamison was past his prime chipping 15. What else was he doing besides scoring? Are we really bringing up Mo Williams as a legitimate second option for a championship contender? And in the same breath acting like Murray isn’t damn near a superstar in the playoffs? He averaged damn near 27 7 and 6 on close to 50 40 90 splits the year they won their championship. 20 6 and 10 in the finals and you all are bringing up Mo Williams!? Tf

Where the heck were you guys when Lebron was making these runs for the cavs. None of these players can hold Murray’s jock strap

You can't just compare Murray in 2024 to Ilgauskas in 2007 or Mo Williams in 2009 without starting with how much better the league is today vs then.

The league is better now and Murray’s numbers are his numbers. The league was worse than and Z and Mo William’s production was their production. They was still an inferior supporting cast when considering other contenders. What’s your point? That’s not a better roster than the Celtics, Pistons, Spurs or the Magic

[dhsilv2]

Your entitled to your opinion but your objectively wrong. Bolding Shaq like he was a difference maker a year before retiring is just nonsense. No one at the time was like omg Shaq is on the Cavs. He had a fork stuck in him. He was a roll player at best. He was freaking 37. Antwan Jamison was past his prime chipping 15. What else was he doing besides scoring? Are we really bringing up Mo Williams as a legitimate second option for a championship contender? And in the same breath acting like Murray isn’t damn near a superstar in the playoffs? He averaged damn near 27 7 and 6 on close to 50 40 90 splits the year they won their championship. 20 6 and 10 in the finals and you all are bringing up Mo Williams!? Tf

Where the heck were you guys when Lebron was making these runs for the cavs. None of these players can hold Murray’s jock strap

You can't just compare Murray in 2024 to Ilgauskas in 2007 or Mo Williams in 2009 without starting with how much better the league is today vs then.

The league is better now and Murray’s numbers are his numbers. The league was worse than and Z and Mo William’s production was their production. They was still an inferior supporting cast when considering other contenders. What’s your point? That’s not a better roster than the Celtics, Pistons, Spurs or the Magic

Nuggets aren't making the playoffs without Jokic anymore than the Cavs would without Lebron.

[dhsilv2]

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

C'mon. That's like saying Jokic played with Millsap, who was a "4-time All Star".

And Murray's clearly All-star caliber, just happens to play in a stacked Western conference. He'll certainly have better career numbers in averages and counting stats than Mo Williams once he's retired. Jamal, at age 27 and despite missing 1.5 seasons due to injury, is already 2,000 points away from surpassing Mo's career point total.

I'd hope any guard today will pass similar level guards from the lowest scoring era post shot clock. But if you compare 2009 mo...he was about 30th in the league in points per game just like Murray this year. The biggest difference was he played 81 games and Murray played 59.