Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[lessthanjake]

I think the answer to this thread is actually pretty straightforward: Yes, Jokic may have already peaked higher, since Jokic is in the conversation for greatest peak ever. But Jokic is extremely unlikely to match LeBron in all-time greatness, since he is unlikely to end up with the accumulation of accolades and team succes or the longevity. He’s already 29 right now, and Jokic really doesn’t seem like he’s temperamentally the type of guy that will want to keep going to a late age—wouldn’t be surprised if he retired back to Serbia at age 33 and just enjoyed himself. The combination of getting a relatively late start at an absolutely elite level compared to a guy like LeBron and probably ending his career way earlier would just make it virtually impossible to get there in terms of all-time greatness. He’d basically just have to win the title for like 5 or 6 straight years to be there, and that’s obviously quite unlikely.

[JasonStern]

LeBron had a 20 year window of greatness. If Jokic can pull that off, he can surpass him. And he has a 4-6 year window to do so without playing 20 seasons by accumulating accolades. But it's premature to say he has surpassed LeBron. That said, it's not unrealistic to say he could pass LeBron.

[Iwasawitness]

this is some kind of joke ??????

do you know how many all-star, all nba, all defensive, hall of fame player has lebron played with in his career ?
Even his rookie season he has all-star team mate ?

How many has he played with all those at the same time in their primes moron? And how many times has he played with a great supporting cast AND a top 5 coaching staff in the league LMFAO. Only in 2013 and then Wade got injured.

Guess what, Murray and MPJ were injured a lot. But Jokic stayed.
LeBron chose his teammates, colluded with the 2nd and 4th players ranked by efficiency rating the previous season, played for maybe the best coach (Spo) for an amazing organization (Heat). But then chose to leave. So everything is on him. No excuses.

Spo wasn’t anything close to the best coach in the league at the time LeBron left. They were coming off a finals loss where he was brutally out coached by Pop, and that wasn’t the first time he was even out coached in an NBA finals series.

Also, funny that you mention Jokic having injured teammates. But what about Wade never being the same player again after his injury in 2013 to the point where he made Miami worse? Bosh had a few injury sessions himself, including the playoffs in 2012. I’ve never understood this argument that because LeBron chose his teammates, we aren’t suddenly allowed to point out the weaknesses in the systems he played in and the flaws of said teammates. Yeah he chose them, doesn’t make them perfect.

Oh and btw, LeBron technically didn’t collude. He wanted Bosh to go to Cleveland, not Miami. People tend to forget this but LeBron originally had no desire to leave Cleveland. It was only after it became clear that he had no choice that he made the decision to go to Miami.

[LaLover11]

How many has he played with all those at the same time in their primes moron? And how many times has he played with a great supporting cast AND a top 5 coaching staff in the league LMFAO. Only in 2013 and then Wade got injured.

Guess what, Murray and MPJ were injured a lot. But Jokic stayed.
LeBron chose his teammates, colluded with the 2nd and 4th players ranked by efficiency rating the previous season, played for maybe the best coach (Spo) for an amazing organization (Heat). But then chose to leave. So everything is on him. No excuses.

Spo wasn’t anything close to the best coach in the league at the time LeBron left. They were coming off a finals loss where he was brutally out coached by Pop, and that wasn’t the first time he was even out coached in an NBA finals series.

Also, funny that you mention Jokic having injured teammates. But what about Wade never being the same player again after his injury in 2013 to the point where he made Miami worse? Bosh had a few injury sessions himself, including the playoffs in 2012. I’ve never understood this argument that because LeBron chose his teammates, we aren’t suddenly allowed to point out the weaknesses in the systems he played in and the flaws of said teammates. Yeah he chose them, doesn’t make them perfect.

Oh and btw, LeBron technically didn’t collude. He wanted Bosh to go to Cleveland, not Miami. People tend to forget this but LeBron originally had no desire to leave Cleveland. It was only after it became clear that he had no choice that he made the decision to go to Miami.

Very true I've always knew this

[Cubbies2120]

Can Jokic first separate himself from Luka, healthy Embiid (healthy) and Wemby before making this thread?

I feel like the only ones pushing back from him being a unanimous best player are casuals, 76ers and Mavericks fans. I'm confused how the guy with 2 MVPs and an NBA championship plus soon-to-be 3rd MVP and potential 2nd title is in the conversation with a rookie, a career-long playoff underperformer in Embiid, and a guy in Doncic whose only hardware after 6 years is a Rookie of the Year award.

Jokic isn't in their tier - he's currently jostling for his spot in the top 10-15 all-time.

Meanwhile, those guys are jockying for the 2nd best player in the NBA spot and there's like 1-2 tiers separating Jokic from them. To me, none of the names you've listed are even better than SGA so...

[One_and_Done]

Jokic is not even close to peak Lebron.

[Iwasawitness]

He’s a better overall basketball player than peak LeBron. Much more dominant offensive player. Better scorer, much better rebounder/passer, much much better shooter as well. Way better post game, mid range, decision making.

He’s also gotten more done with far less help. Never required the services of a top 3-5 player to win, of which LeBron has needed two separate ones.

If Jokic teamed up with Giannis or Embiid he’d win titles more easily than he’s already been doing.

He likely won’t pass Jordan as the GOAT as multiple 3 peats and 6 rings is near impossible stuff but he certainly can pass LeBron.

He’s only 1 regular season MVP behind and a few titles. Plus his game is pure skill / strength and girth / IQ and no athleticism - should age very well.

Until Jokic reaches the levels LeBron did defensively (which were so good he was a DPOY candidate), he will never be a better all around player.

[Iwasawitness]

Jokic did not need to form a Super Team to get his ring. That in itself is already more impressive than what LeBron’s titles.

Yeah, because he had quite literally the easiest path to an NBA finals in history, where he never at any point faced a seed higher than 4, faced a 7th seed in the WCF, and faced not one but TWO 8 seeds, one of them being his finals opponent. His team did this as the god damn first seed.

This to me is more proof of the straight up double standards people are willing to make for a player if it means it’s another opportunity to **** on LeBron. If LeBron had that kind of path to a finals, yeah, he probably wouldn’t have needed to leave Cleveland either (although I’m sure people would have no problem pointing out how easy he had it). But guess what? He did have more difficult paths, some of them being FAR more difficult, but for some reason we always push this narrative that LeBron played in the weak East and always had it easy, even though that’s not the case. Meanwhile for Jokic, it was about as easy as you could ask for but for some reason… no one wants to point out how easy he had it.

What a load of ****.

[Jables]

Maybe my brain is fried but is there an honest argument for LeBron peaking higher? People say LeBron peaked around the age he went to Miami but his greatest humiliation was at that time. In what reality did Jokic had an easier ring? Spurs were past their prime and just a great team, and the Heat were heavy, heavy favourites against the Mavs who beat them, in retrospectives all we do is pretend their role players were actually still seen as stars in their prime, they weren't, and the Thunder's legacy has only been tarnished by all their stars post Thunder runs if anything.

It will take many, many years that Jokic is unlikely to play before he surpasses LeBron in popular perception, but I mean in reality who are we kidding?

[SA37]

Jokic is going to need more championships to really be in the convo.

The last 4 years Jokic is basically averaging 26-12-9 on 58fg% 36 3pt% 82 ft% and will likely add his 3rd MVP in 4 seasons -- and I'd argue he should have won MVP last year, one he lost in large part because of "media fatigue". There are very few players with better 4-year runs than that, especially if Denver repeats as champions.

LeBron James has arguably had the best career ever if you just look at his individual production at an elite level for basically his entire career; he's consistently been a ~27-7-7 guy with the exception of his rookie year. (Let's remember how Jordan played at 38/39.) He gets a lot of crap for losing in the Finals, but 10 Finals appearances is unreal, especially when you consider he went to 8 in a row.

Let's see where Jokic stands ~5 years from now when he is 34. If he keeps averaging basically a triple-double over the next ~4-5 years and gets another 2-3 more championships, there will definitely be an argument for Jokic over LeBron, as we'd be talking about a walking triple-double with 4-5 rings and 4-5 MVPs.

[HMFFL]

Jokic did not need to form a Super Team to get his ring. That in itself is already more impressive than what LeBron’s titles.

Yeah, because he had quite literally the easiest path to an NBA finals in history, where he never at any point faced a seed higher than 4, faced a 7th seed in the WCF, and faced not one but TWO 8 seeds, one of them being his finals opponent. His team did this as the god damn first seed.

This to me is more proof of the straight up double standards people are willing to make for a player if it means it’s another opportunity to **** on LeBron. If LeBron had that kind of path to a finals, yeah, he probably wouldn’t have needed to leave Cleveland either (although I’m sure people would have no problem pointing out how easy he had it). But guess what? He did have more difficult paths, some of them being FAR more difficult, but for some reason we always push this narrative that LeBron played in the weak East and always had it easy, even though that’s not the case. Meanwhile for Jokic, it was about as easy as you could ask for but for some reason… no one wants to point out how easy he had it.

What a load of ****.

Are you claiming that Lebron didn't have an easy path to the finals in the Eastern Conference? I thought it was expected every year that he pretty much had an easy path.

One thing is common between the two and that's both made smaller market teams Champions!

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Godymas]

don't mention defense to these people, it doesn't actually mean anything apparently

[MacGill]

Jokic's 23 PS run is > to me than any of LBJ's + no all-star teammates, selected coaches or hand picked teammates. Also, as this is the most modern, athletic league ever, and Jokic obviously ranks top 5 in all athletic attributes, he is well on his way to replacing LBJ in my top 10. He is not there yet but I am very thankful we finally have an 80/90 version of the modern athlete to help others see that there is much more to basketball than having a 45 inch vertical with a 3-point shot.

[Iwasawitness]

Maybe my brain is fried but is there an honest argument for LeBron peaking higher? People say LeBron peaked around the age he went to Miami but his greatest humiliation was at that time. In what reality did Jokic had an easier ring? Spurs were past their prime and just a great team, and the Heat were heavy, heavy favourites against the Mavs who beat them, in retrospectives all we do is pretend their role players were actually still seen as stars in their prime, they weren't, and the Thunder's legacy has only been tarnished by all their stars post Thunder runs if anything.

It will take many, many years that Jokic is unlikely to play before he surpasses LeBron in popular perception, but I mean in reality who are we kidding?

Well for one thing, no one in their right mind says LeBron going to Miami is when he was at his best. His best years are generally considered to be 2009-13, but 2011 was a down period for him, where he had to make serious adjustments to his game and it ultimately ended up not working out in his favor. Jokic doesn’t touch those years yet. Jokic I agree has the superior offensive impact, the problem is defensively they aren’t even close. That’s what gives LeBron his advantage and why Jokic just doesn’t compare to him peak wise. Now if Jokic can become dominant defensively like LeBron did, that’s a different story.

And what do you mean in what reality? Again, Jokic played TWO 8 seeds in those playoffs. He didn’t face a single team with more than 60 wins. Actually, scratch that. He didn’t play a single team with more than 50 wins! And keep in mind this was in 2023 when for the first time in god knows how long, the West was considered the weaker conference. The win totals for the teams Jokic faced? In order… 42, 45, 43, and 44. There is no argument here. Jokic had a much easier path to the finals than LeBron ever did. This IS our reality… it literally happened.

[Iwasawitness]

Jokic did not need to form a Super Team to get his ring. That in itself is already more impressive than what LeBron’s titles.

Yeah, because he had quite literally the easiest path to an NBA finals in history, where he never at any point faced a seed higher than 4, faced a 7th seed in the WCF, and faced not one but TWO 8 seeds, one of them being his finals opponent. His team did this as the god damn first seed.

This to me is more proof of the straight up double standards people are willing to make for a player if it means it’s another opportunity to **** on LeBron. If LeBron had that kind of path to a finals, yeah, he probably wouldn’t have needed to leave Cleveland either (although I’m sure people would have no problem pointing out how easy he had it). But guess what? He did have more difficult paths, some of them being FAR more difficult, but for some reason we always push this narrative that LeBron played in the weak East and always had it easy, even though that’s not the case. Meanwhile for Jokic, it was about as easy as you could ask for but for some reason… no one wants to point out how easy he had it.

What a load of ****.

Are you claiming that Lebron didn't have an easy path to the finals in the Eastern Conference? I thought it was expected every year that he pretty much had an easy path.

One thing is common between the two and that's both made smaller market teams Champions!

Sent from my SM-N975U using RealGM Forums mobile app

He absolutely has (2017 we talking about you). But even that one was more difficult… the Cavs had to face not one but two 50 win teams, all with higher SRS scores than any of the teams the Nuggets faced in 2023 (keep in mind also that the Nuggets had a better SRS rating than the 2017 Cavaliers did). Again, compare that to the Nuggets who faced… 0 50 win teams!

[Iwasawitness]

Jokic's 23 PS run is > to me than any of LBJ's + no all-star teammates, selected coaches or hand picked teammates. Also, as this is the most modern, athletic league ever, and Jokic obviously ranks top 5 in all athletic attributes, he is well on his way to replacing LBJ in my top 10. He is not there yet but I am very thankful we finally have an 80/90 version of the modern athlete to help others see that there is much more to basketball than having a 45 inch vertical with a 3-point shot.

If you honestly rank Jokic’s title run higher than any of LeBron’s, you have a clear and obvious bias and should not be taken seriously as a poster.

[Cubbies2120]

don't mention defense to these people, it doesn't actually mean anything apparently

No, we can acknowledge Jokic is merely an average to above-average defender.

However, we should also acknowledge that while Jokic's numbers don't "pop out" of the screen the man is the greatest orchestrator and offensive force the league has ever seen. He's able to take a G-league roster (21-22 Denver roster) to the playoffs with 46 wins and when given an average cast like this year's he becomes a perpetual championship contender.

There's a difference between being a high PPG scorer which a bunch of guys can do (Embiid, Doncic, SGA) versus being The System where success/failure of each individual role player (Murray/AG/MPJ) rests firmly on the shoulders of how well Jokic can spoon feed them easy buckets. Again, all these other guys in the playoffs have 1-2 all-star teammates and Jokic is a 1-man crew as evidenced by having zero all-star teammates in his entire career.

Most dudes should donate 30% of their paychecks to him for making them appear to be better than they are.

[guynumber45]

Offensively, yes. Jokic might be the first 100/100 offensive player in NBA history in my opinion. He is an elite playmaker and scores at all 3 levels at ridiculous efficiency. Lebron, for as great as he was, had a suspect jumper that was hit or miss and lacked a real go-to move, which held him back in certain clutch situations. But regardless of that, I'd still consider him a 95/100 offensively.

Despite Jokic's greatness on the offensive end of the floor, I still can't put him over peak Lebron because of the defense. Now I think Jokic is a lot better of a defender than he gets credit for. He is very crafty and usually in the right spot defensively. However, that can only carry you so far. His physical limitations can be glaring against certain matchups. Lebron didn't have this issue at his peak. In fact, he was a DPOY candidate at his best. So building around Peak Lebron was easier than current Jokic since you didn't have to take into account any defensive weaknesses, which I think matters in this discussion.

[UglyBugBall]

Can Jokic first separate himself from Luka, healthy Embiid (healthy) and Wemby before making this thread?

I feel like the only ones pushing back from him being a unanimous best player are casuals, 76ers and Mavericks fans. I'm confused how the guy with 2 MVPs and an NBA championship plus soon-to-be 3rd MVP and potential 2nd title is in the conversation with a rookie, a career-long playoff underperformer in Embiid, and a guy in Doncic whose only hardware after 6 years is a Rookie of the Year award.

Jokic isn't in their tier - he's currently jostling for his spot in the top 10-15 all-time.

Meanwhile, those guys are jockying for the 2nd best player in the NBA spot and there's like 1-2 tiers separating Jokic from them. To me, none of the names you've listed are even better than SGA so...

Embiid has been insane the past year and a half on both ends of the court. Problem is he can't stay on the court. Yes in the past Embiid choked in the playoffs but I think this season is proving that hes crossed that Rubicon.

Luka is a better fit for the modern NBA. He can bring the ball up and initiate as a guard, he can control tempo and pace more as the primary ball handler. He's a better scorer, equal passer and so far this season perhaps a slightly better defender. To me they're essentially equal but Lukas ball handling advantage as the guard gives him the edge. It's been the recipe of most championships the past decade. If Jokic beats the Celtics this year I'll give him the nod, but I think it's inevitable that Luka will surpass him all time.

Jokic is clearly better than Wemby right now, but I think we've seen enough to say that Wemby will be better than jokic ever was within 2 or 3 seasons. He's simply too doninant as a rookie on both ends of the floor.

It makes sense to have Jokic number one because of the hardware, but it's so close that it doesn't make sense to compare him to peak LeBron. There was no one in the league that was even close to LeBron at his peak. He was in another tier. Jokic is the best player in the league but within spitting distance of those other guys.

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic did not need to form a Super Team to get his ring. That in itself is already more impressive than what LeBron’s titles.

Yeah, because he had quite literally the easiest path to an NBA finals in history, where he never at any point faced a seed higher than 4, faced a 7th seed in the WCF, and faced not one but TWO 8 seeds, one of them being his finals opponent. His team did this as the god damn first seed.

This to me is more proof of the straight up double standards people are willing to make for a player if it means it’s another opportunity to **** on LeBron. If LeBron had that kind of path to a finals, yeah, he probably wouldn’t have needed to leave Cleveland either (although I’m sure people would have no problem pointing out how easy he had it). But guess what? He did have more difficult paths, some of them being FAR more difficult, but for some reason we always push this narrative that LeBron played in the weak East and always had it easy, even though that’s not the case. Meanwhile for Jokic, it was about as easy as you could ask for but for some reason… no one wants to point out how easy he had it.

What a load of ****.

Imagine being in a world thinking that 2022-23 Cleveland was better than Miami or Sacramento was better than Lakers because of “seeding”. News flash. In this era of load managing, seeding isn’t important as it used to be. So to say that they beat an “8th seed” in the Finals lacks context on so many levels.

Jokic battled Bam, AD, Gobert in the playoffs last year…who’d Lebron battle in the east once the Celtics core broke up? Paul George? DeRozan? Joe Johnson???? Lebron had the easiest path to the Finals year in and year out and even if those Chicago and Indiana teams were feisty, they were still no match for a team with Lebron and Kyrie.

“Quite literally the easiest path” is absolute lmao