Jokic's great, but Lebron's style of play is overrated in terms of championship/playoff impact.

[NO-KG-AI]

Lebron is incredible, obviously. In every sense. Prime, longevity, complete game, giving the fans what they pay for, representing the league, everything. GOAT candidate, on the short list of ACTUAL GOAT candidates, etc.

We’ve discussed the pluses and minuses of LeBron ball for years. I do sort of get the feel that his style of play, and his patience with teammates and coaches does cap them a little bit on the really really high end of things.

I haven’t felt like a LeBron led offense was playing above the sum of its parts since basically the first Cleveland stint, where as a sheer force of nature they achieved things they never should have.

It might not be a LeBron thing as much as just a continuity thing.

LeBron was always such a monstrous floor raiser it almost doesn’t matter.

[donnieme]

A lot of posts make a lot of sense now. Turns out most of these guys only started watching Lebron after 18.Lebron a flow of the game guy? Before 19 you could pick at least 2 games in every series he played where the winning surge in the closing quarter, sometimes half, was all Lebron.

[Optms]

Call me when he goes to 8 straight Finals or doesn't get swept without Murray. Nevermind impacting the game over 20 years. One guy is overrated here and it isn't the GOAT.

8 straight finals in a conference where their best competition was Rose and the Bulls and was otherwise trash means little, especially when it's exposed because your team gets slaughtered in the finals.

Go ahead and look up the squads he faced. It was a joke of a conference and when Lebron formed the Heat, he had more superstars on his own team than the entire eastern conference playoffs combined.

It's impressive, but not to be compared with Kobe's championships. Lebron's championships can be.

And by comparison, what and who has Jokic faced?

Jokic has one measly Finals appearance to Lebron's 10.

1 title to Lebrons 4.

And which juggernaut did Jokic face? The Jimmy Butler led Miami heat? And the Heat didn't even have Herro. Talk about weak opponents Lebron faced and the other guy literally got the most cupcake of match ups to get his 1 here. Nicely done.

[ChipotleWest]

Lebron James haters are pathetic. If you only rely on their posts you would think that he is some bum with no titles and only scores on dunks.

Just say "I don't like Lebron James and will do everything to diminish him."

That's more acceptable than typing 1,000-word essays that no one will read and take seriously.

That's not true for me, I just don't think he's the GOAT. He's probably #2 for me. The hate for Jordan gets even more ridiculous. A supporter of Lebron will point out how Jordan didn't win a ring in the 80's (ignoring that he had no teammates and was young) or how he didn't win as a Wizard (same age as Lebron) or how he lost to the Magic in 95 (only series he lost between 91-98), or call the 90's a weak era, or act like he had far superior teammates to Lebron. Do they ever give him a shred of credit? Nope! You'd think he was a bust.

I get along with pretty much everyone people who root for rival teams of the Mavs no problem, other than Lebron lovers just because I don't think he's #1 all time. They're by far the most immature.

[Scalabrine]

The idea that LeBron has NEVER been that guy is obviously a really stupid take that is clearly not very thought out by you. I can actually get behind the overall premise of him not being good enough to lead a team by himself anymore. He's not the number 1 guy on a championship caliber team. Neither is AD. I don't think adding a guy like Trae Young or Dejounte Murray or Donovan Mitchell is even gonna change that. This team is backed too far into a corner. They don't have the assets to put a real team together and the clock is ticking fast.

I don't know how much the Lakers feel like they "owe" LeBron, but if they are ever gonna cash in on this teams value then now is the exact time!

Lakers trade:
LeBron for Wiggins/Kuminga/Payton/Looney

Lakers trade:
AD for Cason Wallace/Josh Giddey/Ousman Dieng and 3 First Rounders

Lakers would be able to cleanly hit the reset button. Do right by their stars (something that they have claimed in the past is important for them) and get a nice haul for both guys to immediate fast track a rebuild.

Looney/Hachimura
Kuminga/Vanderbilt
Reaves/Wiggins
Wallace/Payton
Giddey/Vincent

They can start collecting assets and building around Kuminga/Wallace/Giddey/Reaves while they bottom out and play for the future.

[ChipotleWest]

The idea that LeBron has NEVER been that guy is obviously a really stupid take that is clearly not very thought out by you. I can actually get behind the overall premise of him not being good enough to lead a team by himself anymore. He's not the number 1 guy on a championship caliber team. Neither is AD. I don't think adding a guy like Trae Young or Dejounte Murray or Donovan Mitchell is even gonna change that. This team is backed too far into a corner. They don't have the assets to put a real team together and the clock is ticking fast.

I don't know how much the Lakers feel like they "owe" LeBron, but if they are ever gonna cash in on this teams value then now is the exact time!

Lakers trade:
LeBron for Wiggins/Kuminga/Payton/Looney

Lakers trade:
AD for Cason Wallace/Josh Giddey/Ousman Dieng and 3 First Rounders

Lakers would be able to cleanly hit the reset button. Do right by their stars (something that they have claimed in the past is important for them) and get a nice haul for both guys to immediate fast track a rebuild.

Looney/Hachimura
Kuminga/Vanderbilt
Reaves/Wiggins
Wallace/Payton
Giddey/Vincent

They can start collecting assets and building around Kuminga/Wallace/Giddey/Reaves while they bottom out and play for the future.

Lebron has an opt out so you can't really trade him without his permission.

[Scalabrine]

The idea that LeBron has NEVER been that guy is obviously a really stupid take that is clearly not very thought out by you. I can actually get behind the overall premise of him not being good enough to lead a team by himself anymore. He's not the number 1 guy on a championship caliber team. Neither is AD. I don't think adding a guy like Trae Young or Dejounte Murray or Donovan Mitchell is even gonna change that. This team is backed too far into a corner. They don't have the assets to put a real team together and the clock is ticking fast.

I don't know how much the Lakers feel like they "owe" LeBron, but if they are ever gonna cash in on this teams value then now is the exact time!

Lakers trade:
LeBron for Wiggins/Kuminga/Payton/Looney

Lakers trade:
AD for Cason Wallace/Josh Giddey/Ousman Dieng and 3 First Rounders

Lakers would be able to cleanly hit the reset button. Do right by their stars (something that they have claimed in the past is important for them) and get a nice haul for both guys to immediate fast track a rebuild.

Looney/Hachimura
Kuminga/Vanderbilt
Reaves/Wiggins
Wallace/Payton
Giddey/Vincent

They can start collecting assets and building around Kuminga/Wallace/Giddey/Reaves while they bottom out and play for the future.

Lebron has an opt out so you can't really trade him without his permission.

They'd be getting his permission.

[KembaWalker]

LeBronball never got the best out of anyone, hence why the guy needed like 25 all stars throughout his career to do anything. Jokic actually elevates his teammates as far as playing good ball not just “floor raising” while standing around waiting for kick outs

[lessthanjake]

I think this thread obviously is based on a healthy bit of trolling. But I do think that there’s a conceptually true point in there, regarding generalist and specialist players being of differing value in terms of floor-raising and ceiling raising. Basically, a good team will have other players who are good at various things while a mediocre team won’t, so being able to take on lots of roles and do them well is of less value on a good team, and you may be able to have more marginal value to your team by taking on a more limited role and doing it even more exceptionally.

This is the simplified/stylized example I’ve often given to illustrate the concept:

Let’s say there are two categories of play: Category A and Category B. Now let’s say that Player 1 is a 10/10 in Category A and a 7/10 in Category B. Meanwhile, Player 2 is a 9/10 in Category A and a 9/10 in Category B. So, overall, if you just look at their skill sets, Player 2 may look like the better overall player (i.e. Player 1 has a total score of 17, compared to 18 for Player 2). However, let’s say both players can have a great teammate that is a 9/10 at one category and a 7/10 at the other category. Player 1’s team will be able to have a 10/10 player at Category A and a 9/10 player at Category B. Meanwhile, Player 2’s team will have a 9/10 player at Category A and a 9/10 player at Category B. Player 1’s team will be better even if Player 1 is not necessarily the superior overall player when looking at their skill sets in a vacuum. I’d say Player 1 is the better ceiling raiser. Of course, if the teammates were just 6/10 at both categories, then Player 2’s team would be better; Player 2 would be the better floor raiser.

Of course, this is super simplified, and there’s a lot of things a player can do well that multiple players can do well at the same time in a totally additive way. For instance, being a good defender is something that your entire team can do, rather than being a specific role that only one or two guys are going to be fulfilling. But the general concept is true in a lot of ways. And it seems fairly obvious to me as a concept. As applied to LeBron, I do think that this limited his ceiling raising a good deal, since LeBron is definitely a generalist in the roles he is fulfilling. That said, of course, some of the stuff he has done very well are also things that are purely additive regardless of how good a team is. LeBron isn’t a *bad* ceiling raiser by any means, but players who specialize and are even better at one or two major things are probably more likely to end up having genuinely top-tier all-time teams.

[An Unbiased Fan]

Lebron's style relies on him being a jack of all trades and having offensive/defensive versatility. The problem is that is James does a lot of things really well that just don't move the needle in terms of championship impact. It's the high floor-low ceiling type problem with certain superstars who because of they showcased in every situation, they take up roles in which they are not really needed and in all probability a specialist player would take up that position more effectively. Lebron for his whole career it has not been so much the quantity of his stats, but the quality of selective and almost arbitrary stat padding. This has always led to poor situational game management and breakdowns in team performance. Fighting your own teammates for meaningless defensive rebounds, getting gimme assists on 3-point swing swing play or kickouts, getting credit for tons of assists that primarily scorekeeper's discretion, and just in general using up valuable on-the-ball/off-the-ball action inefficiently and inadequately leads to these playoffs collapses, especially against other championship caliber teams with bona fide superstars.

In this league you are either a generalist or a specialist, and a player really can't be both. Lebron's Achilles been that he has always tried to be both to detriment of his team, and in the playoffs his rosters have lacked cohesive structure. With Lebron you see players check out mentally during games. The coaches have to cater to his every whim and you see players like Anthony Davis complaining about not having a cohesive structure on offense and not knowing what the team is doing. You also see very strange and unexplainable tendencies to move away from what works to allow Lebron to freelance. AD, for example, could be completely dominating a game, and because Lebron basically can become the offense at any point, the team offense stops functioning or breaks down. This is the reason why is has always needed another top 5 or top 10 player in the league to get him over the hump. The other player is actually operating the specialist impact role that we saw from guys like Kobe, Jordan, and Curry, etc.

Against Denver Lebron's team has lost now eleven games in a row. Just from a probability perspective, for playoff team like the Lakers with almost 50 wins and with two top 10 players to lose that many a row to another playoff team is almost impossible without real thematic breakdowns caused by inefficient play and lack of team execution. There is no team discipline on Lebron's squads. It's a lot of Lebron freelancing, and this just does not work against good teams that can stay within a system and execute consistently on a quarter by quarter basis. The primary cause of this is that Lebron's superstar impact from overall sense is just not there. He has not has been on the same par as guys like Kobe, Jordan, etc. and other primary on-ball specialists who can situationally take over games by attacking the other team through primarily occupying a main niche in a system and allowing other players to specialize in a role. "Lebron being the system" is a problem because coaches and other players have to occupy new niches and new roles are that uncomfortable for them, and also their roles are constantly have to change around him on a game-by-game basis. This is especially true in the playoffs when other teams can exploit these inefficiencies. Lebron's impact goes way down in those situations. Even when he is scoring, assisting, etc., the team suffers.

The bottom line is that people can blame Darvin Ham, give all the credit Jokic, blame Lebron's age, etc. but Lebron's style of play is just not built for playoff basketball. Lebron's a regular season guy. Yea, against a bad Eastern Conference his teams can get to the finals, but when he faces a really good team his style of play does not work. And to be honest, Lebron is lucky that he has four championships. If not for Ray Allen and the Bubble, he would have only two.

Yeh, said this about LeBron for 15+ years here. It's great for stat acclamation, but ball dominant players like him aren't as impactful at winning

[An Unbiased Fan]

LeBronball never got the best out of anyone, hence why the guy needed like 25 all stars throughout his career to do anything. Jokic actually elevates his teammates as far as playing good ball not just “floor raising” while standing around waiting for kick outs

100% truth

[Heej]

People saw Jokic stomp a bunch of bum teams with one of the best supporting casts and coaching staffs in the league and lost their minds trying to crown him in order to talk down on LeBron. The Derangement Syndrome is real. This post would make more sense if the playoffs weren't about mitigating weaknesses as much as possible on both ends of the floor. This is why you'd rather have competent 2-way role players than a 1-way 3rd star in the NBA. Too bad OPs too busy trolling to increase his ball IQ . Never seen a guy induce this much cognitive dissonance in people LMFAO. Imagine an entire forum losing their marbles because one guy has finally been taken down off his perch at the ripe old age of 39. F***ing epic

[swyftdahoe]

The only problem with LeBron right now is that he's 39 and no longer has a 5th gear. Hardly an indictment.

[Gregoire]

LeBronball never got the best out of anyone, hence why the guy needed like 25 all stars throughout his career to do anything. Jokic actually elevates his teammates as far as playing good ball not just “floor raising” while standing around waiting for kick outs

100% truth

Thats why Joker is 8-1 with LeBron in playoffs 2 recent years.