Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker

[moderndarwin]

If you were the GM and you had to build out for the next 15 years. Guaranteed they stay with you. You’ll build the team out around them and currently have let’s say top 5 shooting and good starters currently. You won’t get another top 5 draft pick but you’ll get 10-30 normal sort of picks from here on out depending how things go.

Do you take Joker or Shaq? They’ll both be 20 in the first season

[cdubbz]

I voted Shaq.

He's the most DOMINANT force the NBA has ever seen. Give me 15 years of Shaq.

[Duke4life831]

Hard to go against Jokic. Because there is no projecting on how impactful Jokic would be in this era. Jokic is a 3x MVP (probably should be 4), is a champion and is an advanced stat marvel. We know what Jokic looks like in this era, he is the best player in the league by probably a sizeable margin.

If Im starting a team in today's game. Ya give me Jokic knowing what his floor is in today's league.

[sikma42]

Hard to go against Jokic. Because there is no projecting on how impactful Jokic would be in this era. Jokic is a 3x MVP (probably should be 4), is a champion and is an advanced stat marvel. We know what Jokic looks like in this era, he is the best player in the league by probably a sizeable margin.

If Im starting a team in today's game. Ya give me Jokic knowing what his floor is in today's league.

Is it really a sizable margin vs Luka and Embiid?

The gap between Shaq and Duncan/Dirk/Kobe/KG was bigger imo


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[Peregrine01]

I voted Shaq.

He's the most DOMINANT force the NBA has ever seen. Give me 15 years of Shaq.

15 years? You'll hardly make it to 3 years before he starts bitching about some other star that gets paired with him and ultimately demands out.

This is Jokic fairly easily.

[cdubbz]

I voted Shaq.

He's the most DOMINANT force the NBA has ever seen. Give me 15 years of Shaq.

15 years? You'll hardly make it to 3 years before he starts bitching about some other star that gets paired with him and ultimately demands out.

This is Jokic fairly easily.

Well the original poster said they're guaranteed to stay on the team so i'm assuming he has to stay

Is their trajectory going to be the same? Shaq came into the league a superstar. It took Jokic 4 seasons - i'll take the opportunity to win right from year 1.

[Duke4life831]

Hard to go against Jokic. Because there is no projecting on how impactful Jokic would be in this era. Jokic is a 3x MVP (probably should be 4), is a champion and is an advanced stat marvel. We know what Jokic looks like in this era, he is the best player in the league by probably a sizeable margin.

If Im starting a team in today's game. Ya give me Jokic knowing what his floor is in today's league.

Is it really a sizable margin vs Luka and Embiid?


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Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.

In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.

And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.

[Peregrine01]

I voted Shaq.

He's the most DOMINANT force the NBA has ever seen. Give me 15 years of Shaq.

15 years? You'll hardly make it to 3 years before he starts bitching about some other star that gets paired with him and ultimately demands out.

This is Jokic fairly easily.

Well the original poster said they're guaranteed to stay on the team so i'm assuming he has to stay

Is their trajectory going to be the same? Shaq came into the league a superstar. It took Jokic 4 seasons - i'll take the opportunity to win right from year 1.

Guaranteed to stay with you, but not guaranteed to not feud, come into training camp fat, postpone surgery until the season starts so that you're "healing on company time" and just be a completely unsufferable POS?

I used to think Kobe was the culprit behind much of the Lakers' melodrama but it's become clear that it was Shaq all along.

[sikma42]

Hard to go against Jokic. Because there is no projecting on how impactful Jokic would be in this era. Jokic is a 3x MVP (probably should be 4), is a champion and is an advanced stat marvel. We know what Jokic looks like in this era, he is the best player in the league by probably a sizeable margin.

If Im starting a team in today's game. Ya give me Jokic knowing what his floor is in today's league.

Is it really a sizable margin vs Luka and Embiid?


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Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.

In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.

And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury/rule change.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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[Demagoog]

Jokic is still going, he is so good who knows where he'll end up when it is all said and done. However, in all my years of watching basketball, peak Shaquille O'Neal is the closest guarantee you'll ever get to a championship. I have never seen a better basketball player in my life than 2000 Shaq.

[cdubbz]

15 years? You'll hardly make it to 3 years before he starts bitching about some other star that gets paired with him and ultimately demands out.

This is Jokic fairly easily.

Well the original poster said they're guaranteed to stay on the team so i'm assuming he has to stay

Is their trajectory going to be the same? Shaq came into the league a superstar. It took Jokic 4 seasons - i'll take the opportunity to win right from year 1.

Guaranteed to stay with you, but not guaranteed to not feud, come into training camp fat, postpone surgery until the season starts so that you're "healing on company time" and just be a completely unsufferable POS?

I used to think Kobe was the culprit behind much of the Lakers' melodrama but it's become clear that it was Shaq all along.

Yup. Still taking Shaq in 2024.

[Duke4life831]

Is it really a sizable margin vs Luka and Embiid?


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Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.

In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.

And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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But you just said the gap between Shaq and Duncan was bigger. Even though Duncan won back 2 back MVPs over Shaq.

Also Embiid didn’t win back 2 back MVPs. So your premise is false to begin with. You can make the much better argument that Jokic should’ve won MVP last year, over the argument that Embiid deserved back 2 back MVPs.

[Lockdown504090]

I dont see very many players who havent been able to improve their shooting using modern mechanics coaching regardless of their size strength, or laziness. shaq will be the GOAT

[sikma42]

Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.

In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.

And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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But you just said the gap between Shaq and Duncan was bigger. Even though Duncan won back 2 back MVPs over Shaq.

Also Embiid didn’t win back 2 back MVPs. So your premise is false to begin with. You can make the much better argument that Jokic should’ve won MVP last year, over the argument that Embiid deserved back 2 back MVPs.

I was going along with your argument.

My main point is that MVP doesn’t mean best player. And that is was understood that Shaq was the best player in the league regardless of award. He just couldn’t get it playing with another 1st team all nba. You’re conflating MVP with best player.

Shaq was head and shoulders better than Duncan for that 3 year stretch and Duncan is one of my favorite players ever.


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[Duke4life831]

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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But you just said the gap between Shaq and Duncan was bigger. Even though Duncan won back 2 back MVPs over Shaq.

Also Embiid didn’t win back 2 back MVPs. So your premise is false to begin with. You can make the much better argument that Jokic should’ve won MVP last year, over the argument that Embiid deserved back 2 back MVPs.

I was going along with your argument.

My main point is that MVP doesn’t mean best player. And that is was understood that Shaq was the best player in the league regardless of award. He just couldn’t get it playing with another 1st team all nba. You’re conflating MVP with best player.

Shaq was head and shoulders better than Duncan for that 3 year stretch and Duncan is one of my favorite players ever.


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But MVP wasn’t the only argument I made for Jokic. I also brought up his domination in the vast majority of advanced metrics, his durability, and his ability to perform at an all time level in the playoffs.

[Exp0sed]

I'm very high on Jokic but Shaq is literally one of the only guys who were clearly better

very hard to compare between eras but I think in this day and age, with so much more money involved as well, Shaq would have alot more incentive to actually stay fit and professional

social media too, would put alot of pressure on a guy like Shaq
he'd be unstoppable

with modern coaching, schemes, medicine, shooting mechanics and analytics there would really be no answer for a more professional and well conditioned version of Shaq

[LoveMyRaps]

I voted Shaq.

He's the most DOMINANT force the NBA has ever seen. Give me 15 years of Shaq.

Give me the guy that can space the floor.

[SlimShady83]

Please no one could stop Shaq back then, no one can stop Shaq now

Children please

[One_and_Done]

It's Shaq, but Jokic will win the poll.

[Duke4life831]

Please no one could stop Shaq back then, no one can stop Shaq now

Children please

And no one can stop Jokic now.