Starting a team in 2024 - Shaq or Joker

[sikma42]

Ya Id say so. I mean in the last 4 years Jokic has played in 70 more games than Embiid. Put that into perspective, the most games Embiid has ever played in a season is 68. So in the last 4 years, Denver has essentially gotten 1 extra regular season out of Jokic vs what Philly has gotten from Embiid.

In the last 4 years Id say Jokic has been the leader in probably at least 80% or more of the advanced stats for the regular season. Then you go and look at what he's done in the playoffs. Jokic has arguably been a top 3 playoff performer of all time. And unlike Luka and Embiid, Jokic does have the championship.

And 3 MVPs in 4 years. How many other guys have done that? 7? Id say Jokic has a pretty sizeable gap between him and everyone else at the moment.

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury/rule change.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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Did you not read his post. He pointed out the availability of Jokic compared to Embiid. Jokic has been way more effective than Embiid in the playoffs not even close. Jokic is the best player in the league.

Did you read the comment and what the discourse was about. I agree Jokic is the best player in the league. It’s about the gap between Shaq/Jokic and their contemporaries superstars.

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[AleksandarN]

Embiid was the front runner for MVP this year and won it last year. If you are head and shoulders better than someone you don’t lose to them back to back for MVPs if not for an injury/rule change.

And Luka imo played better than him this year and will only lose do the strength of his support cast. I think we are conflating awards with who is better. When Shaq played, even when he didn’t when the MVP, we ALL knew who was better…the MVP isn’t for the best player.


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Did you not read his post. He pointed out the availability of Jokic compared to Embiid. Jokic has been way more effective than Embiid in the playoffs not even close. Jokic is the best player in the league.

Did you read the comment and what the discourse was about. I agree Jokic is the best player in the league. It’s about the gap between Shaq/Jokic and their contemporaries superstars.

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Yes I did the gap is not close right now in my opinion. The last 4 year run has been remarkable

[Nuntius]

Hard to go against Jokic. Because there is no projecting on how impactful Jokic would be in this era. Jokic is a 3x MVP (probably should be 4), is a champion and is an advanced stat marvel. We know what Jokic looks like in this era, he is the best player in the league by probably a sizeable margin.

If Im starting a team in today's game. Ya give me Jokic knowing what his floor is in today's league.

This is the correct answer, imo.

The OP was pretty clear in their criteria. Starting a team in 2024 is part of the criteria and, as you said, we already know how Jokic looks like in this era. We already know how dominant he is. There's no need for projection, no uncertainty at all. So, if we were to approach this logically and non-emotionally, he should be the clear pick.

[Johnny Bball]

I'm very high on Jokic but Shaq is literally one of the only guys who were clearly better

very hard to compare between eras but I think in this day and age, with so much more money involved as well, Shaq would have alot more incentive to actually stay fit and professional

social media too, would put alot of pressure on a guy like Shaq
he'd be unstoppable

with modern coaching, schemes, medicine, shooting mechanics and analytics there would really be no answer for a more professional and well conditioned version of Shaq

Shaq has been struggling with his weight all of his life. Including now. What makes you think this changes

The extra benefitted him under the old rule set?

[JJ_PR]

Joker, without a doubt. Orlando Shaq was basically a taller Dwight Howard; he used his physical ability to dominate. I don't think that style of play is as effective in the modern NBA.

[Patches Perry]

Comparing great players outside of their eras to great players in their own era will almost always go to the great player in their own era. I'd take Shaq easily in 2001 but Jokic easily in 2024.

I have serious questions about how Shaq would translate into the modern game. That doesn't take anything away from him because he didn't play in the modern game and therefore doesn't get judged against it unless the hypothetical specifically asks for it.

[Nuntius]

Comparing great players outside of their eras to great players in their own era will almost always go to the great player in their own era. I'd take Shaq easily in 2001 but Jokic easily in 2024.

Exactly.

[GameChannel]

I'd take Jokic. He gets the edge purely based on the fact that there's no drama with him and he comes prepared and in shape for the season. Shaq was not nearly as disciplined and lacked the drive.

[Exp0sed]

I'd take Jokic. He gets the edge purely based on the fact that there's no drama with him and he comes prepared and in shape for the season. Shaq was not nearly as disciplined and lacked the drive.

I hadn't considered the "no drama" part, it's actually an awesome argument for Jokic. I think Shaq at his best was a better player but honestly, he'd be a lazy drama queen in every era and Jokic is basically the least high maintenance superstar, ever.

for a franchise making such a decision (to build around one or the other), Jokic is just much more likely to be content and motivated

15 years of each, i'd probably take Shaq but with Jokic you have a much higher chance of actually retaining him throughout, it'd be nearly impossible with Shaq

[nate33]

It was very difficult to get Shaq to play "the right way". He was usually lazy on defense and a mediocre passer. Phil Jackson managed to reach him for about 2.5 years, but that's it. The rest of his career, he was not the best he could be. I'd definitely prefer Jokic. He elevates his teammates more, he motivates his teammates to play unselfishly, and he has the versatility to coexist alongside any type of offensive player. He is also more durable.

[Yoshun]

I'd take Shaq, he's the better defender.

Anyone who pretends this "isn't close" doesn't know what they're talking about. This is a tough call.

I have Shaq but "better defender" might be the last argument i'd use tbh
rookie Shaq could def hang but Lakers Shaq would be a defensive liability. sure he can protect the rim much better than Jokic but that's that..in all other facets of a modern defense - Jokic is better

Shaq was abused in the PNR even back in the day
Jokic might have a slow first step but he can sprint pretty fast tbh and he is a workhorse. Shaq was lazy, you really think Shaq would be closing out on 3 pt shooters? half ass*d at best

still Shaq for me, but def not because of "defense"

Jokic is already posing a huge issue for switch heavy modern schemes, imagine switching everything and have Shaq guarded by a guard inside haha. in short - teams would have to change their whole defense, there's no way you can switch everything with Shaq around

I agree it's a problem, as you said, it's a problem for Jokic too. Shaq was an elite rim protector and shot blocker though. So yes, defense.

[srhcan]

If you were the GM and you had to build out for the next 15 years. Guaranteed they stay with you. You’ll build the team out around them and currently have let’s say top 5 shooting and good starters currently. You won’t get another top 5 draft pick but you’ll get 10-30 normal sort of picks from here on out depending how things go.

Do you take Joker or Shaq? They’ll both be 20 in the first season

definitely Shaq. Such a physical freak of nature.

[Black Jack]

Shaq was better but also super annoying and temperamental. I'll take Jokic because he won't opt out and run to LA/Miami to live the superstar life. Assuming my team isn't in one of those two places.

Also Shaq was very abusive to teammates and Jokic just is there basically. You could pair anyone with Jokic but Shaq will run certain guys away based on his bullying personality.

[sikma42]

It was very difficult to get Shaq to play "the right way". He was usually lazy on defense and a mediocre passer. Phil Jackson managed to reach him for about 2.5 years, but that's it. The rest of his career, he was not the best he could be. I'd definitely prefer Jokic. He elevates his teammates more, he motivates his teammates to play unselfishly, and he has the versatility to coexist alongside any type of offensive player. He is also more durable.

Shaq was a mediocre passer?


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[lonzo_pelota]

Lakers bias aside, I choose Shaq , Jokic is good and a current force to be reckoned with, but Shaq is the only player that had a go to move of a low post drop step dunk and could defend the best centers of his generation as well as drop 30 or 40 on em. If his free throw pct was higher this arguably wouldn't even be a poll and he'd probably have another championship or two or more on his mantle. And If jokic had shaq's athleticism he would be my pick because his game is more versatile.

[AleksandarN]

It was very difficult to get Shaq to play "the right way". He was usually lazy on defense and a mediocre passer. Phil Jackson managed to reach him for about 2.5 years, but that's it. The rest of his career, he was not the best he could be. I'd definitely prefer Jokic. He elevates his teammates more, he motivates his teammates to play unselfishly, and he has the versatility to coexist alongside any type of offensive player. He is also more durable.

Shaq was a mediocre passer?


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Shaq was a good passer but a mediocre playmaker.

[moderndarwin]

Joker would foul out in first half trying to guard Shaq. Shaq on the other could pretty fairly easily guard Joker. Hes stronger, faster, bigger. Joker feasts because he usually is bigger than guys so can either post them and happens to also be way more skilled so can make a variety of shots. The closest we’ve seen is Embiid. And Joker one on one with Embiid and when their teams plays is pretty much an even matchup. No one can objectively say he outplays Embiid. He’d get absolutely ragdolled by Shaq.

[Devilanche]

Comparing great players outside of their eras to great players in their own era will almost always go to the great player in their own era. I'd take Shaq easily in 2001 but Jokic easily in 2024.

Exactly.

Yeap. Can’t assume that Shaq magically stay in shape this era and improve his work rate/shooting.

Both would still be a hell of a centerpiece though.
Yearly contender with either .

[LaLover11]

Give me Wemby

[nate33]

It was very difficult to get Shaq to play "the right way". He was usually lazy on defense and a mediocre passer. Phil Jackson managed to reach him for about 2.5 years, but that's it. The rest of his career, he was not the best he could be. I'd definitely prefer Jokic. He elevates his teammates more, he motivates his teammates to play unselfishly, and he has the versatility to coexist alongside any type of offensive player. He is also more durable.

Shaq was a mediocre passer?


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relative to Jokic, at least.