GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation

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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#21 » by Scalabrine » Mon Apr 29, 2024 3:58 pm

Mr Puddles wrote:
Scalabrine wrote:Wouldn't this just encourage more threes?

I don't think the high scores are because there are more points in the paint. It's more threes and more fast break points.

Why do you think this would help that?


Not necessarily, driving to the basket opens up the three point line as well by making the defense collapse. Having a presence in the paint makes it more difficult for teams to drive to the rim.

Also, defenders will in theory play tighter on the perimeter if they know that they have a big man in the middle bailing them out. So it might be that offensive players would be driven off the three point line, but not necessarily be able to go all the way to the cup - which could result in more mid rangers.


Good point. I didn't think about that aspect.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#22 » by Darth Celtic » Mon Apr 29, 2024 4:25 pm

People forget the prior rules were worse. It was 100% no zone allowed. Now you can double without ball and play zone with mindfully not to sit in lane not touching a dude for over three seconds.

Prior, in Jordans NBA you got a tech for doubling a person who doesn't yet have ball, and having more players on one side of the court that the other team. Teams could take three dudes to left side of court and you forced the game to be 2 vs 2 on the right side.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#23 » by Froob » Mon Apr 29, 2024 4:28 pm

How often is it really getting called when guys camp?
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#24 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon Apr 29, 2024 4:36 pm

Froob wrote:How often is it really getting called when guys camp?


Guys don't camp in the NBA. If you compare NBA defenses to other basketball leagues you see the paint is guarded less due to this stupid rule. If the NFL banned safeties, players would still try to cheat but you'd see way more bomb touchdowns in the NFL and teams would spam throwing 30 yards down the field.

That is what the NBA's done with the 3 second rule. That said the NBA is a business. And they probably have a lot of research showing fans want dunks, threes and ineffective defense.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#25 » by ChipotleWest » Mon Apr 29, 2024 5:47 pm

boomershadow wrote:
ChipotleWest wrote:Didn't exist when Jordan played (except at the end when he was in Washington) nor hand checking being illegal, couldn't stop him anyway.


Defensive limitations were MORE strict in the 90s, not less.



I ask you to please back that up with evidence. I will provide evidence that shows it's been much easier to score due to rule changes than it was in the 90's.

The person responsible for implementing the new rules, Vice President of Basketball Operations Stu Jackson, says the rule changes were specifically designed to make penetration easier and increase shot quality for literally EVERYONE.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...son/index.html


NBA.com: Shooting percentages have risen since 2004-05 regardless of location -- at-the-rim shots, short- and deep-mid range and 3-pointers. Does this surprise you, especially the higher percentages from 3-point range?

Stu Jackson: With the rule and interpretation changes, it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim..



NBA.com: Doesn't the wide-open style benefit certain types of players? For example, wing players vs. frontcourt players?

Stu Jackson: The benefits of an open game are not limited to just perimeter players. An open game can benefit a post player as well. Remember, if the players are spaced wider and using more of the court, then defenses have to play those players closely because they're good shooters. The style actually serves to open up the middle of the floor. If a team has an effective post player, he would have more room to operate in the post.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#26 » by Johnny Bball » Mon Apr 29, 2024 5:58 pm

Rather see them get rid of the restricted area so there's not more garbage fouls called on the defense when the offense barrels into them.

And it didn't exist until the 97-98 season.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#27 » by Zeno » Mon Apr 29, 2024 6:24 pm

Despite the scoring outbursts from earlier in the season, I think the league should be very careful making this kind of change with the arrival of possible generational defenders like Chet and Wemby. As those guys come into their own, the results of such a rule change could seriously harm the competitive balance of the league.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#28 » by CIN-C-STAR » Mon Apr 29, 2024 6:41 pm

"Players are more skilled than ever, it's not even close, that's why scoring is up!!!" 8-)
"We can't allow a true zone no one would be able to score it'll ruin the game!!!" :cry:

It's funny how some people can believe both of these things at the same time.
Personally I prefer watching games that involve a lot of strategy and are more like a chess match, but I'm sure the league is right and most prefer uncontested dunks and free throws from offensive-initiated contact :roll:
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#29 » by LockoutSeason » Mon Apr 29, 2024 6:44 pm

Defensive 3 seconds isn’t nearly as impactful or relevant as some fans think it is. It has little to no effect on the level of defense being played.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#30 » by og15 » Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:07 pm

LockoutSeason wrote:Defensive 3 seconds isn’t nearly as impactful or relevant as some fans think it is. It has little to no effect on the level of defense being played.

Small differences help. Like I mentioned in many threads before, changing other rules (not things like illegal defense) and interpretation/enforcement back to whatever glory day time we mention, 90's, 00's won't take the league back to those levels of offensive efficiency because roster building and strategy has advanced. But it will help the defense enough to shave up a few pts/possession from the offense.

The Ortg in the playoffs is down from the regular season average of 115.3 to 112.6 after 30 games, so 2.7 pts/100. Taking into account that the playoffs filters out a the bottom of the barrell offensive teams and defensive teams, that's a reasonable decrease.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#31 » by WentzerWuver » Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:56 pm

sp6r=underrated wrote:It is a stupid rule that doesn't exist in any basketball league beyond the NBA. It makes playing defense absurdly hard in the NBA and leads to endless pick and roll spam.
Might as well get rid of charging as well to be fair for the offense otherwise they will just pack in the paint area holding hands like the berlin wall.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#32 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:05 pm

WentzerWuver wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:It is a stupid rule that doesn't exist in any basketball league beyond the NBA. It makes playing defense absurdly hard in the NBA and leads to endless pick and roll spam.
Might as well get rid of charging as well to be fair for the offense otherwise they will just pack in the paint area holding hands like the berlin wall.


Defenses should be allowed to guard the most important part of the court and in every basketball league but one they are. There is nothing unfair about allowing a team to devote one player to guarding the area close to the rim. Players are free to shoot the mid-range shot to try to force the defender out or they can try to pass the ball around to generate 3s to force the defender. If you're actually skilled at team basketball you can punish a team that confines one of their 5 defenders to the rim area.

So there is nothing unfair about allowing real zone defenses. The reason the NBA doesn't is because they know fans want to watch pick and roll spam as it leads to easy dunks. That is reasonable as the NBA is a for-profit business. But it has nothing to do with fairness. The NBA rulebook which prohibits zone defenses but includes generous gathering, continuation rules and non-enforcement of moving screen rules is extremely tilted towards offense.

And that is why NBA defenses are mostly ineffective.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#33 » by sp6r=underrated » Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:07 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:"Players are more skilled than ever, it's not even close, that's why scoring is up!!!" 8-)
"We can't allow a true zone no one would be able to score it'll ruin the game!!!" :cry:

It's funny how some people can believe both of these things at the same time.
Personally I prefer watching games that involve a lot of strategy and are more like a chess match, but I'm sure the league is right and most prefer uncontested dunks and free throws from offensive-initiated contact :roll:


I share your preference but I also suspect we're in the minority. And that is why I understand the current rulebook. But it is silly when fans act like zone defenses are unfair to offenses. If you're really that skilled you should be able to figure out how to score with a defender guarding the area next to the rim.
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Re: GET RID!!! of the 3 second defensive violation 

Post#34 » by shi-woo » Mon Apr 29, 2024 9:33 pm

I love every year watching a team like MIA, who actively prioritizes zone schemes, come out and crush NBA teams because the players have never played against it, and have no clue what to do.

If teams actually practiced and coached on how to beat it as much as they do other defenses, it wouldn't be nearly as effective as it is, and that's with the 3 second rule.

The 2 closest defenses we've seen to an actual zone defense in the modern era came in the late 2000's with Thibs famous overloading defense in Boston and Stans famous funnel defense in Orlando. Both broke the NBA for a while and made teams actually work to score, and both worked essentially like a zone defense. KG used to talk all the time how they essentially just played zone with him sitting in the paint and just taking a step out every 3 seconds, or just running from one side of the paint to the other.

Those teams were absolutely awesome to watch, and imo that era of basketball was great. Every team played different, and guys like Pierce, Kobe, and Dirk really shined because they were experts at all 3 levels. It took LeBron till 2012 to finally learn to beat that defense by realizing he had to beat you from the inside out too, not just taking the gimme jumper.

That's what playing actual defense does, it makes players work on their game constantly, and learn new aspects. I'll always point to 2012 being the year LeBron really became a true legend of the game, because that's when no defense would work on him.

Do people really think teams would just hire a 7'2 stiff to just sit in the paint for 48 a game? Because they wouldn't, players would just learn the scheme and hit the open man. You ever watch a denver nuggets game? Ever see how Jokic sets AG up on the backdoor cut? Those are the skills guys would have to prioritize.

People think it wouldn't be good because right now the players don't think like that. If you can't shoot, teams already leave you open and suffocate one of your team mates. If you can't pass out of traps or dbls teams are going to blitz you (Suns tried to do it to Ant all series and he crushed them with the passing game).

How did not showing on screens and dropping a man into the paint work for the Celtics in the 2022 finals?

This is such an overblown facet of the NBA, and just a bunch of prima donnas who want easy points, and not have to actually work for their points.

But as others have mentioned, we're now in an era were almost everyone on the court can shoot from distance or put the ball on the floor and make a play if needed. I don't think it would be as bad as some would think, and we know this because all of us are going to love watching the Olympics in a few months :lol:

NBA players and the media just gaslit all of you because if teams could actual play true zones youd see more games with Sam Hauser going for 20 than Tatum going for 40 and that's not good for business and marketing

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