Has Anthony Edwards Surpassed Jayson Tatum?

[E-Balla]

Ant is about as good as Tatum at his age. He's not as good as Tatum right now.

[User_friendly]

They both show a lot of promise but it's impossible to deny Tatum's greatness at just 21 years of age. He's precocious and ferocious.

Jesus how fast time passes by!!
It seems it was yesterday when he was 19!

[Quentin]

East has always been a weaker conference. Much easier to get to the finals. Wolves had to face the champions in the first round last year and now they're facing the defending champions in round 2. Much tougher road to hoe.

[jfs1000d]

It's crazy to see the giant leap/improvement Edwards has made from last season to this season. He's still raw but man he's got that dog in him and he wants it. Tatum we all know is great but he seems to be on cruise control sometimes and doesn't have that "IT" factor like Edwards does to take over games.

Curious what y'all take is on this?

What does surpassed mean? Tatum has played in 90 playoff games, 5 conference finals, an nba finals and scored 50 in a game 7 elimination game.

Edwards got to the second round against a broken suns team .lol

[MiltownMadness]

I mean yeah, dont really care what happens in this playoffs. Edwards is just better and Id take him now and moving forward if I have to choose between the two

[BodieB]

No, not yet, but he's definitely getting the narrative push to surpass him. I can't think of many players that have their early career success used against them the way the media does with Tatum. It's fascinating to watch. Ant is definitely on his way though.

[PierceFan4ever]

No..

[tsherkin]

No, not yet, but he's definitely getting the narrative push to surpass him. I can't think of many players that have their early career success used against them the way the media does with Tatum. It's fascinating to watch. Ant is definitely on his way though.

I think with Tatum, there's this huge push to believe he's at a level beyond where his play actually resides due to Boston's team success. And that overlooks their depth and quality all over. Like, they've been pretty good since he was a 16/6 dude on sub-par efficiency in his second season, and they were in the ECFs when he was a rookie... and they were a dominant defense then, and a 55-win squad. Kyrie, Horford, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, that wasn't a thin roster, you know? Brad Stevens coaching. Bit of Kemba Walker later. Then a .500 team in 2021 with some injuries. Back to 51 wins with Udoka coaching, run to the Finals, offense tailed off but still a high-end defense. Tatum might have cost them the title that year. Even better under Mazzulla, but even more depth.

Like, the Celtics have been deep and had very good top-end talent. So while Tatum has indeed been quite good, it's worth realizing that there's some pushback because he's being overpushed as better than he has actually been. We hear criticality about literally everything even remotely bad from some of the truly top-end guys, but we don't here a lot about how Tatum folded up inside his own butt during the 2022 Finals.

3/17, 8/19, 9/23, 8/23, then finally 10/20, and then 6/18 in the last game. He was brutal. 36.7% FG on the series, 34% other than Game 5. And 31.6% FG inside the arc. He was literally completely useless other than from 3 as a scoring threat that series, locked right up. Now, he's young, Golden State was literally the best defense in the league that year, there are a bunch of reasons why we probably shouldn't talk about it TOO much... but he gets a free pass in conversations so often that it's a little jarring when you look at the way Lebron and Jokic and others are hammered over EVERYTHING, just dwelling forever under an electron microscope. Jokic just had a 25/20/9 game and people are griefing him, you know what I mean?

So that's where some of it comes as far as pushback against positive talk about Tatum, I think.

[thinktank]

After one series? I'm gonna say no.

Tatum led his team to the ECF's as a rookie and was dunking on LeBron in Game 7. Been to 4 Conference Finals and 1 NBA Finals as the #1 option. Holds the NBA record with 51 points in a Game 7. Now he's joined Bron and Kobe as the only players in NBA history with 3000 playoff points before turning 27.

Ant is dope as hell and was absolutely incredible vs Suns. But he's 22 likely to have some ups and downs in this postseason as he plays better opponents, and then there's the rest of his career still to come. Give the kid a minute lol.

How is averaging 18ppg in the playoffs “ led his team to the ECF's as a rookie”?

at 19 he was the most consistent player on Boston and while they were missing their best player Tatum stepped up and while Brown averaged a point or two more, Jayson Tatum was the best player on that Celtic team which took Cavs to game 7

They also had Rozier and Horford leading them too.

I’m going to rewatch that. I don’t recall him being this unstoppable force leading them to the ECF at that age and when I read the box scores, I don’t see it either. Again, Rozier led them in scoring a game. Horford was right there one game. Brown pitched in a bunch. Seems like more of a team effort to me.

[CoP]

We hear criticality about literally everything even remotely bad from some of the truly top-end guys, but we don't here a lot about how Tatum folded up inside his own butt during the 2022 Finals.

Not sure where you have been. We hear that nearly every time there is a discussion about Tatum.

[tsherkin]

We hear criticality about literally everything even remotely bad from some of the truly top-end guys, but we don't here a lot about how Tatum folded up inside his own butt during the 2022 Finals.

Not sure where you have been. We hear that nearly every time there is a discussion about Tatum.

I don't see it a lot, and I've been in a fair number of Tatum threads.

In any case, as I said, when you (the general 'you,' not you specifically) try to over-advance a player's position, you get pushback. It is what it is. Often, the pushback exceeds the reasonable, of course. In this thread, that appears to be the case for Tatum, because folks are trying to prop up Ant a little prematurely.

[cupcakesnake]

No, not yet, but he's definitely getting the narrative push to surpass him. I can't think of many players that have their early career success used against them the way the media does with Tatum. It's fascinating to watch. Ant is definitely on his way though.

I think with Tatum, there's this huge push to believe he's at a level beyond where his play actually resides due to Boston's team success. And that overlooks their depth and quality all over. Like, they've been pretty good since he was a 16/6 dude on sub-par efficiency in his second season, and they were in the ECFs when he was a rookie... and they were a dominant defense then, and a 55-win squad. Kyrie, Horford, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, that wasn't a thin roster, you know? Brad Stevens coaching. Bit of Kemba Walker later. Then a .500 team in 2021 with some injuries. Back to 51 wins with Udoka coaching, run to the Finals, offense tailed off but still a high-end defense. Tatum might have cost them the title that year. Even better under Mazzulla, but even more depth.

Like, the Celtics have been deep and had very good top-end talent. So while Tatum has indeed been quite good, it's worth realizing that there's some pushback because he's being overpushed as better than he has actually been. We hear criticality about literally everything even remotely bad from some of the truly top-end guys, but we don't here a lot about how Tatum folded up inside his own butt during the 2022 Finals.

3/17, 8/19, 9/23, 8/23, then finally 10/20, and then 6/18 in the last game. He was brutal. 36.7% FG on the series, 34% other than Game 5. And 31.6% FG inside the arc. He was literally completely useless other than from 3 as a scoring threat that series, locked right up. Now, he's young, Golden State was literally the best defense in the league that year, there are a bunch of reasons why we probably shouldn't talk about it TOO much... but he gets a free pass in conversations so often that it's a little jarring when you look at the way Lebron and Jokic and others are hammered over EVERYTHING, just dwelling forever under an electron microscope. Jokic just had a 25/20/9 game and people are griefing him, you know what I mean?

So that's where some of it comes as far as pushback against positive talk about Tatum, I think.

Yes love all this.

Then I think the speculation is: what would Tatum look like in other situations. (I'm considering this mostly offensively, because I think Tatum adds defensive value to any situation). What would he look as a Brunson in New York (over-relied upon scorer on a defensive juggernaut)? What would he look like as Giannis on the current Milwaukee team (a team that would rely on his rim pressure and defense)?

We've basically only seen prime Tatum in this specific (and historically rare?) situation: as the lead player in a rich, talented collaboration. Being the best player on a stacked team is like... what we all dream of in our rec leagues, haha. I can't think of too many players that have spent this much time in that kind of situation. Billups as the offensive initiator in Detroit? Maybe Magic and Bird (but the gap feels bigger except for the early Kareem years and late Bird years).

[BodieB]

No, not yet, but he's definitely getting the narrative push to surpass him. I can't think of many players that have their early career success used against them the way the media does with Tatum. It's fascinating to watch. Ant is definitely on his way though.

I think with Tatum, there's this huge push to believe he's at a level beyond where his play actually resides due to Boston's team success. And that overlooks their depth and quality all over. Like, they've been pretty good since he was a 16/6 dude on sub-par efficiency in his second season, and they were in the ECFs when he was a rookie... and they were a dominant defense then, and a 55-win squad. Kyrie, Horford, Jaylen Brown, Marcus Smart, that wasn't a thin roster, you know? Brad Stevens coaching. Bit of Kemba Walker later. Then a .500 team in 2021 with some injuries. Back to 51 wins with Udoka coaching, run to the Finals, offense tailed off but still a high-end defense. Tatum might have cost them the title that year. Even better under Mazzulla, but even more depth.

Like, the Celtics have been deep and had very good top-end talent. So while Tatum has indeed been quite good, it's worth realizing that there's some pushback because he's being overpushed as better than he has actually been. We hear criticality about literally everything even remotely bad from some of the truly top-end guys, but we don't here a lot about how Tatum folded up inside his own butt during the 2022 Finals.

3/17, 8/19, 9/23, 8/23, then finally 10/20, and then 6/18 in the last game. He was brutal. 36.7% FG on the series, 34% other than Game 5. And 31.6% FG inside the arc. He was literally completely useless other than from 3 as a scoring threat that series, locked right up. Now, he's young, Golden State was literally the best defense in the league that year, there are a bunch of reasons why we probably shouldn't talk about it TOO much... but he gets a free pass in conversations so often that it's a little jarring when you look at the way Lebron and Jokic and others are hammered over EVERYTHING, just dwelling forever under an electron microscope. Jokic just had a 25/20/9 game and people are griefing him, you know what I mean?

So that's where some of it comes as far as pushback against positive talk about Tatum, I think.

Actually, I hear more about his failures in the finals more than anything (nothing about how he was hurt btw). It's reasonable since it was in the finals he had his lowest moments as a player, but it's almost as if his career defining, record breaking games are overlooked as a result. It appears that many believe his ascension is hollow, or unearned because of that, and those voices are eager to knock him off the perch for someone they deem as more worthy to closer reflect the whole Jordan/Kobe mentality.

[tsherkin]

Yes love all this.

Then I think the speculation is: what would Tatum look like in other situations. (I'm considering this mostly offensively, because I think Tatum adds defensive value to any situation).

Agreed, I think his D, rebounding and his playmaking are all pretty transferable to whatever context. And honestly, his offense probably is too. He bombs threes. He isn't very special on O otherwise. He's a good FT shooter, considerably below average at shooting from 10-15 feet and also a little below average from 16-23, and about average from 3-10 and in the RA. Pretty decent at drawing fouls. Very high-variance offense because of his 3pt shooting.

What would he look as a Brunson in New York (over-relied upon scorer on a defensive juggernaut)? What would he look like as Giannis on the current Milwaukee team (a team that would rely on his rim pressure and defense)?

Likely similar to what he looked like last year and in 2022 when he was REALLY pushing his 3pt volume. In Milwaukee, he'd struggle. He doesn't have anything like what Giannis does in terms of rim pressure, so replacing him would be pretty brutal, especially since they don't have a superior primary playmaker of note.

We've basically only seen prime Tatum in this specific (and historically rare?) situation: as the lead player in a rich, talented collaboration. Being the best player on a stacked team is like... what we all dream of in our rec leagues, haha. I can't think of too many players that have spent this much time in that kind of situation. Billups as the offensive initiator in Detroit? Maybe Magic and Bird (but the gap feels bigger except for the early Kareem years and late Bird years).

I think both Magic and Bird were comfortably better on O pretty much their entire careers. Tatum's rocked 60.7% and 60.4% TS these past two years with volume 3pt shooting. Magic was a 60.2% TS guy as a rookie in the first year 3s even existed in the NBA. He had some turnover issues but you could already see that he was going to be a monster, and then in the playoffs, sure enough, he was a monster. When later in his career he started working on his shot and developed a 3, he was even nastier. Though I don't consider any of that a negative on Tatum, of course, just an unfair comparison.

You're talking more about context than individual play, in any case, I think.

Anyway, I think Tatum is what he is and his scoring probably wouldn't change that much elsewhere. He does it on a comparatively low proportion of assisted buckets, right? He was top 12 during the regular season in pull-up 3pt shooting for guys on 4+ pull-up attempts per game, basically right there with Donovan Mitchell and De'Aaron Fox. His big issue is that if his 3 isn't falling, he doesn't have a lot else in his arsenal on which to lean, which is a common problem in many players today.

I think opinions of him would change on not-Boston, for sure. But to be fair, if he clicks at the right time, they very much can win a title. And he isn't a trivial talent, either. It's not easy to replace like 27/8/4 or whatever. He just isn't an epic offensive player, not a tier-one guy. But you CAN win like this if you stack assets like a boss, and it's working out really nicely for Boston. But when he hits a cold spell, Boston's in a lot of trouble, and they come a lot in the playoffs because he's so reliant upon his 3 and isn't... you know, isn't Steph, or even Dame. That's the trick at 8+ 3PA/g, you're really introducing massive variance into your game.

[tsherkin]

Actually, I hear more about his failures in the finals more than anything

That surprises me.

It appears that many believe his ascension is hollow, or unearned because of that, and those voices are eager to knock him off the perch for someone they deem as more worthy to closer reflect the whole Jordan/Kobe mentality.

I think the problem is less that and more that he just flatly isn't as good as some of the players to whom he is compared. He's pretty clearly a tier-two guy but some want to treat him as tier one. And that just doesn't check, you know? Tier two is really, really good, even still.

[wegotthabeet]

Tatum is just turning 16. give him a couple of years to develop.

[BodieB]

Actually, I hear more about his failures in the finals more than anything

That surprises me.

It appears that many believe his ascension is hollow, or unearned because of that, and those voices are eager to knock him off the perch for someone they deem as more worthy to closer reflect the whole Jordan/Kobe mentality.

I think the problem is less that and more that he just flatly isn't as good as some of the players to whom he is compared. He's pretty clearly a tier-two guy but some want to treat him as tier one. And that just doesn't check, you know? Tier two is really, really good, even still.

I think there's two "I told you so's" in the waiting. One for if he wins finals MVP, the other for if the Celtics flame out again. For my part I think the latter will always find something to dislike about the guy regardless, as he just doesn't fit their ideal of the top player in the league for them.

[Triple M]

Teir 1 guys are Jokic, Giannis and Luka. I think he's with anyone else. Guys like Curry and Bron are also better but are in situations they cant sustain over a full season and post season. But guys like SGA and Ant dont have much of a track record yet but will have an opportunity this season. Usually it's in the playoffs where these players seprate from each other so i look forward to see what happens in a few months time.

[tsherkin]

I think there's two "I told you so's" in the waiting. One for if he wins finals MVP, the other for if the Celtics flame out again. For my part I think the latter will always find something to dislike about the guy regardless, as he just doesn't fit their ideal of the top player in the league for them.

I don't think a Finals MVP really changes any of the critical elements associated with him. Largely it means he was able to hit his 3s at the right time. And that's nice, but you know, it doesn't really change anything about his impact as a player.

Of course, as I say that, all of Boston is like "but I couldn't GAF less, because we'll title," and naturally, that's the appropriate attitude. A title is a title whether you have an S-tier superstar or like an A-tier perennial All-Star leading the way on an ensemble cast, after all.

As for me, if Boston flames out, the details will matter a lot. If Tatum pulls another "I can't hit the broad side of a barn with an artillery fusillade" performance, then that's... almost expected. Volume 3pt shooter with no middle game, that's gonna come in one series or another.

If he performs well and they lose, so be it, they got taken by a team which performed better overall, but good for him.

If he performs well and they win, he still is who he is and has been, but he's got a title on his resume and that's good for later on when we get into all-time rankings later in his career. The how of his performance will matter some, of course, but he doesn't look meaningfully different to recent seasons. And he's been playing like ass so far this postseason aside from Game 2 against Miami. Or I should say, "scoring like ass," because he does have a pretty well-rounded game and he did stick a triple double in their face to open the series, poor shooting notwithstanding.

[shi-woo]

I mean Tatum's a Top 10 player, so idk what more people can expect from him.

Tatum showed potential to be a Top 4-5 guy in the league,, and a lot of you people are still clinging onto that sentiment even when most Celtic fans gave up on that years ago. Really it's just fans of other teams who try to make it seem like everyone thinks Tatum is some powerhouse player that is the face of the league, when he's not. This dude didn't even start making it onto comercials until last year.

This guy getsno media attention, and all of his accomplishments are typically thrown out the window which is what causes Celtic fans to come out in droves and stand up for the guy. He's the only player in my lifetime that can consistently show up, go for 40-50 in elimination games, and people will start threads about how he's trash over rated, and just doesn't have it.

It also doesn't help that every player he plays with gets the same treatment, which makes a lot of the Tatum arguments and threads absolutely trash. Smart and Brown are garbage players who are over rated defensively with a ton of weaknesses on offense, but then yall turn around and say he plays for powerhouse stacked teams

Tatum isnt a bang on his chest and scream every play type of guy, so ost people don't like him and have given him the unfair soft/doesn't have IT label.

Ant is just in the same spot Tatum was in a few years ago, with people seeing the Top 5 potential and getting ecited thinking he can do it every game. WE'll see how that goes for him. Tatum so far has topped out as easy Top 10 player probably on the verge of Top 5. We'll see how Ant progresses and if he can beat that but right now, no it's not really a discussion, Tatum is the supiorior player right now on both sides of the ball