The Clutch Game is decided by little guards

[Statlanta]

We saw it in DEN vs. LAL

when the game resulted into Reaves vs. Murray

This game it is Maxey leading Embiid.


Seems like big guys provide the floor of the game's production while the little guys provide the games heroics with the lack of dribbling at the end of games and focus on turnover economy.

[bovice]

yup

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence are replaceable attributes in comparison to elite shot making.

you can replace Pau with Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bogut, Dwight, Bosh, Horford but you can only replace Kobe with Dwade. so despite Pau doing more for the team, Kobe was the more valuable one. no matter how great a big man is, they always needed players around them that could hit big shots to close out games. Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Chauncy Billups, Murray, etc ...

[zimpy27]

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence do the heavy lifting in comparison to elite shot making that takes the credit

FTFY

[bovice]

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence do the heavy lifting in comparison to elite shot making that takes the credit

FTFY

yeah I can agree with that.

but my point is every player in the NBA can grab a rebound (some better than others, I know). a lot of big men can bother shots in the paint. how many players can create a good shot with Tony Allen or pat bev all over them?

[DeBlazerRiddem]

Lot more space on the perimeter to guard, it's way more likely that a defensive breakdown happens out there. Teams can either put pressure on the paint and kick it out or they get a favorable switch, either way it is much more likely to generate an end of game look. Defenses are just more likely to give up an outside look when it comes down to it and live with the percentages.

[JDR720]

The main thing isn't being clutch, but guards can create their own shots much easier than bigs can. Quickness, dribbling etc.

[SweaterBae]

Eh, if teams actually ran offense lots of dudes would get good looks, but it's always hero ball. I'll take Kevin Duckworth flat footed off a pick and pop from 15 feet over Dame taking a contested step back 3 from 30 feet with the game tied. And let's not pretend Kobe is some beacon for clutch play.

[shi-woo]

I completely disagree and think you are just conflating size with ball handling ability.

Because Paolo isn't a guard and neither is Wagner, and they looked just fine down the stretch of that game.

Teams need players that have the ability to get to their spot when they need to, and i'll agree that more often than not that is going to be a guard because that is their game. But we've seen Jokic, LeBron, KD, Kawhi, Pierce, Kobe, George, ect all be the more clutch players of their era becaue they can get to where they need to go.

Yeah Murray made the last shot, but who literally was the one bringing the ball up, initiating the offense, and scoring clutch baskets before those shots? It was Jokic every single game except 1.

I think what the games today showed us is that just putting the ball in your best players hand and saying go get a bucket instead of continuing to run your offense is the difference for a lot of these teams and situations. Both Brunson and Paolo played incredible all game, and then fumbled the game away for their teams at the end when they started playing predictable hero ball. Greg Anthony was going into cardiac arrest with how the MAgic just stopped moving down the stretch of the game and Paolo went Himmy on us.

I call it the Boston Celtic syndrome, as Tatum and Brown are low key notorious for doing this, and neither one of them has the handle to get exactly where they want to go. It's why even though both are two of the most clutch players in the league, Boston's end of game offense is so putrid, because we just stop running actions, and just tell those guys to go do something with nothing.

[KamikazeK]

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence do the heavy lifting in comparison to elite shot making that takes the credit

FTFY

Jack up some 3's. If they go in, you're a hero. If not, people make fun of you on the internet.

[Kurtz]

We saw it in DEN vs. LAL

when the game resulted into Reaves vs. Murray

This game it is Maxey leading Embiid.


Seems like big guys provide the floor of the game's production while the little guys provide the games heroics with the lack of dribbling at the end of games and focus on turnover economy.

What really helped Reaves and Murray score was the fact that they were often guarded by Murray and Reaves. I'd be curious to see if Murray can replicate that effort while guarded by Mcdaniels or Ant.

[NZB2323]

I don’t know. It wasn’t that long ago that Jokic hit a game winner over AD and AD has hit a game winner over Jokic in the playoffs. Embiid is difficult to stop from scoring.

Shaq, KG, and Webber weren’t as clutch as those guys.

[NZB2323]

yup

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence are replaceable attributes in comparison to elite shot making.

you can replace Pau with Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bogut, Dwight, Bosh, Horford but you can only replace Kobe with Dwade. so despite Pau doing more for the team, Kobe was the more valuable one. no matter how great a big man is, they always needed players around them that could hit big shots to close out games. Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Chauncy Billups, Murray, etc ...

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

[FarBeyondDriven]

that's because guys defending these high usage chuckers that play no defense are other high usage chuckers that play no defense. It's no coincidence that each team has one of these guys and they both had 40 point games while shooting 30 times.

[bovice]

yup

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence are replaceable attributes in comparison to elite shot making.

you can replace Pau with Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bogut, Dwight, Bosh, Horford but you can only replace Kobe with Dwade. so despite Pau doing more for the team, Kobe was the more valuable one. no matter how great a big man is, they always needed players around them that could hit big shots to close out games. Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Chauncy Billups, Murray, etc ...

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

[SweaterBae]

yup

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence are replaceable attributes in comparison to elite shot making.

you can replace Pau with Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bogut, Dwight, Bosh, Horford but you can only replace Kobe with Dwade. so despite Pau doing more for the team, Kobe was the more valuable one. no matter how great a big man is, they always needed players around them that could hit big shots to close out games. Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Chauncy Billups, Murray, etc ...

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

Bigs(and now wings) dominate championships, not lead guards. Steph Curry and Zeke are the only two players in the last 40? years to be the best player on their team as a 6'3 or smaller guard.

Finals MVPs since whatever year I choose to make my argument look better:

Magic
Moses
Bird
Kareem
Worthy
Dumars
Zeke
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups
Wade
Parker
Pierce
Bryant
Nowitski
LBJ
Leonard
Iggy(lul)
KD
Curry
Giannis
Jokic

Shocker, the best players also need other good players to win? This is the same inverted nonsense argument as Jokic owes success to Murray. The big fish eat the little ones.

[bovice]

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

Bigs(and now wings) dominate championships, not lead guards. Steph Curry and Zeke are the only two players in the last 40? years to be the best player on their team as a 6'3 or smaller guard.

Finals MVPs since whatever year I choose to make my argument look better:

Magic
Moses
Bird
Kareem
Worthy
Dumars
Zeke
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups
Wade
Parker
Pierce
Bryant
Nowitski
LBJ
Leonard
Iggy(lul)
KD
Curry
Giannis
Jokic

Shocker, the best players also need other good players to win? This is the same inverted nonsense argument as Jokic owes success to Murray. The big fish eat the little ones.

I think you're misinterpreting my point. jokic is the best player on Denver. I'm not saying your best player has to be a guard. I would never build a team where my best player is a pg or a small player. you rarely win that way

[SweaterBae]

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

Bigs(and now wings) dominate championships, not lead guards. Steph Curry and Zeke are the only two players in the last 40? years to be the best player on their team as a 6'3 or smaller guard.

Finals MVPs since whatever year I choose to make my argument look better:

Magic
Moses
Bird
Kareem
Worthy
Dumars
Zeke
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups
Wade
Parker
Pierce
Bryant
Nowitski
LBJ
Leonard
Iggy(lul)
KD
Curry
Giannis
Jokic

Shocker, the best players also need other good players to win? This is the same inverted nonsense argument as Jokic owes success to Murray. The big fish eat the little ones.

I think you're misinterpreting my point. jokic is the best player on Denver. I'm not saying your best player has to be a guard. I would never build a team where my best player is a pg or a small player. you rarely win that way

I don't understand your point then. You need a good team. You specifically called out bigs needing others, when it is literaly the opposite. Isolating "clutch shot makers" doesn't make much sense, especially in the context of how terrible Murray has been in the playoffs. Hakeem needed Mario Elie? You didn't say players, you said bigs.

[NZB2323]

yup

shot blocking, rebounding, and paint presence are replaceable attributes in comparison to elite shot making.

you can replace Pau with Duncan, Garnett, Stoudemire, Bogut, Dwight, Bosh, Horford but you can only replace Kobe with Dwade. so despite Pau doing more for the team, Kobe was the more valuable one. no matter how great a big man is, they always needed players around them that could hit big shots to close out games. Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Chauncy Billups, Murray, etc ...

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

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Dirk, AD, Jokic, and Embiid can all make 3s or drive to the basket. Kareem had more range than Dr. J. And I’m pretty sure that both Jordan and Kobe have made game winning shots from a post-up.

[bovice]

Robert Horry is a big, and so are Kareem, Dirk, AD, and Embiid, who have all hit game winning shots.

name a team whose best player is a big who won a championship without having clutch shot makers around him. Horry hit clutch jumpers for Duncan and hakeem. Middleton and jrue made jump shots down the stretch for giannis. big men cant win without great jump shooters around them because ur not closing games out with post ups. see ewing

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Dirk, AD, Jokic, and Embiid can all make 3s or drive to the basket. Kareem had more range than Dr. J. And I’m pretty sure that both Jordan and Kobe have made game winning shots from a post-up.

yes I am aware that big men can shoot 3s. I feel like you're more interested in being right than understanding my point. maybe re read my post and ask me what part you're confused about and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have

[bovice]

Bigs(and now wings) dominate championships, not lead guards. Steph Curry and Zeke are the only two players in the last 40? years to be the best player on their team as a 6'3 or smaller guard.

Finals MVPs since whatever year I choose to make my argument look better:

Magic
Moses
Bird
Kareem
Worthy
Dumars
Zeke
MJ
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Billups
Wade
Parker
Pierce
Bryant
Nowitski
LBJ
Leonard
Iggy(lul)
KD
Curry
Giannis
Jokic

Shocker, the best players also need other good players to win? This is the same inverted nonsense argument as Jokic owes success to Murray. The big fish eat the little ones.

I think you're misinterpreting my point. jokic is the best player on Denver. I'm not saying your best player has to be a guard. I would never build a team where my best player is a pg or a small player. you rarely win that way

I don't understand your point then. You need a good team. You specifically called out bigs needing others, when it is literaly the opposite. Isolating "clutch shot makers" doesn't make much sense, especially in the context of how terrible Murray has been in the playoffs. Hakeem needed Mario Elie? You didn't say players, you said bigs.

I'm saying giannis can't close out games. he can't score as easily when the game is slowed down and there's a timeout after a change of possession and the defense is set. players like jokic and maybe embiid and now maybe wemby are an anomaly. a Shaq post up when down 3 with 15 seconds isn't the play. what you need is someone to kick the ball out to who can hit a clutch jumper (Horry) or someone who is elite at creating their own shot in those moments (Kobe/kawhi/Jordan).

and my second point is that the skill level of the elite shot creator is more valuable than the skillet of a great big man because the things that the big man does are more easily replaceable. the difference between the best shot blocker and 8th best is not that big. the difference between the best rebounder and the 10th best is not that big. but the difference between Kobe's ability to get a good look vs whoever the 10th best person is in his era is wayy bigger