Who dominated who more? Bird vs MJ, or Jokic vs LeBron?

[ChipotleWest]

MJ is my GOAT.
I just love going at delusional people like you. Who thinks MJ is a mythical creature and never had any flaws.

So Orlando Woolridge, averaging 20 a game is forgotten? Thats a fact.
LeBron didn't make playoffs the first couple years, True,
But LeBron's team had better records and missed the playoffs than MJs team who made the playoffs, these are facts.


That's true and Jordan always had the best teams, he never got anywhere as an underdog. But he won spectacularly as the favorite.
LeBron brought scrubs to the finals and won as an underdog. He never always had the best team, and failed when he was the favorite.

So I've listed some Facts here about MJ, but I know you'll brush them off and pretend they didn't happen and say "He was god disguised at MJ" LOLs.
Classic delusion.
Like I said when faced with facts about MJ flaws or failures, you brush them off and go back to your mythological stories.

Yeah because most people spend 100% of the time criticizing who they think is the GOAT and flexing on someone else who they don't think is the GOAT. You still haven't said a good thing about Jordan except he's your GOAT which makes no sense.

I love how this has turned into you attacking his character because you can’t comprehend how a guy who thinks MJ is the GOAT thinks he had flaws. Being the GOAT doesn’t mean you were a perfect player.

Oh and btw, he does in fact think MJ is the GOAT. Trust me, I would know, I’ve debated with him about it.

Where do you rank Jordan all time?

[Iwasawitness]

Yeah because most people spend 100% of the time criticizing who they think is the GOAT and flexing on someone else who they don't think is the GOAT. You still haven't said a good thing about Jordan except he's your GOAT which makes no sense.

I love how this has turned into you attacking his character because you can’t comprehend how a guy who thinks MJ is the GOAT thinks he had flaws. Being the GOAT doesn’t mean you were a perfect player.

Oh and btw, he does in fact think MJ is the GOAT. Trust me, I would know, I’ve debated with him about it.

Where do you rank Jordan all time?

Number 2 behind LeBron.

[ChipotleWest]

I love how this has turned into you attacking his character because you can’t comprehend how a guy who thinks MJ is the GOAT thinks he had flaws. Being the GOAT doesn’t mean you were a perfect player.

Oh and btw, he does in fact think MJ is the GOAT. Trust me, I would know, I’ve debated with him about it.

Where do you rank Jordan all time?

Number 2 behind LeBron.

Pointing out that he lost when he was young to a vastly superior team is not a flaw. Would you agree or disagree with that? How is it different than Lebron missing the playoffs the first two years? The first year Jordan faced Boston was in year 2. If Jordan is your number 2 all time wouldn't you respect him enough to not have unrealistic expectations?

Again I'm not throwing Lebron under the bus for missing the playoffs the first two years I don't really care, I'm just pointing out how they're similar. Why expect Jordan to win it all or beat an 80's super team but Lebron doesn't have to? Why no consistency?

Jordan has 6 to Lebron's 4 but Jordan needs even more rings somehow or else you're going to be critical of him. Doesn't make sense. But then I've seen some of his haters start in on it was a weak era these are just bad arguments.

[HumbleRen]

ima go with Jokic.

Lebron getting swept and gentlemen swept with a certified top 10 player beside him in AD is crazier than MJ losing to one of the best dynasties in nba history.

[KyRo23]

Easiest question ever

Lakers beat Denver… then won a ring

Next question please

[KennerLeaguer]

What an embarrassing topic. Jordan was a young guy going against at the time the greatest franchise ever with one of the best players and teams of all time. He was not get ready to dethrone them. But if he had to face Bird and the Celtics in 1990/1991 his Bulls would have smoked them, just as they did the Lakers.

Yes the Nuggets have had th e Lakers number the past two seasons, but LeBron should not be ashamed at that. He's 39! He should not be this good at this stage in the first place. The Nuggets should be killing that old man but instead he puts up very good numbers every time to give the Lakers a chance to win close games. Jokic owns him? I would think Jokic who is in his prime should be able to be the best player on the court against a guy about a decade over. This isn't the flex some of you think. LeBron at his peak with this cast of teammates he has now would beat the Nuggets. End of story.

This really isn't about MJ vs LeBron. Instead this is about realgm folks allowing that toxic crap from YouTube to infect this board. Because YouTube, when it comes to the NBA is all about posting vids bashing LeBron or vids about white guys owning black players. There is a reason there are far more vids of Larry than Magic despite Magic besting Larry in college, beating him 2 to 1 in the pros and winning two more NBA championships. Hell, there is more Larry tributes on YouTube than MJs. Obviously Larry was an all-time great, but lets get honest here.

Let me add that unlike with Mike and Bird, LeBron has actually won a series against Jokic. So I don't get the comparisons.

[Iwasawitness]

Where do you rank Jordan all time?

Number 2 behind LeBron.

Pointing out that he lost when he was young to a vastly superior team is not a flaw. Would you agree or disagree with that? How is it different than Lebron missing the playoffs the first two years? The first year Jordan faced Boston was in year 2. If Jordan is your number 2 all time wouldn't you respect him enough to not have unrealistic expectations?

Again I'm not throwing Lebron under the bus for missing the playoffs the first two years I don't really care, I'm just pointing out how they're similar. Why expect Jordan to win it all or beat an 80's super team but Lebron doesn't have to? Why no consistency?

Jordan has 6 to Lebron's 4 but Jordan needs even more rings somehow or else you're going to be critical of him. Doesn't make sense. But then I've seen some of his haters start in on it was a weak era these are just bad arguments.

Am I supposed to answer these questions or something? I'm not understanding why you're asking me all of these questions about claims I didn't make.

[NbaAllDay]

I cant take a thread seriously when someone just said "Jordan always had the best teams". The coke addicts, Oakley, rookie Pippen should have won multiple series vs the 10 or so great Hall of Famers in Celtics, Pistons who combined for 5 titles in the 80s??

Jesus, I might as well blame a 40 year old Lebron being great in game 4,5 Vs Denver. How dare he not be in his prime, having mentally weak second stars like AD. That is as logical as expecting a 23 year old MJ with a Bulls team that had a losing RS record to win games vs a legendary Celtics team .

Skickat från min Pixel 7 Pro via Tapatalk

Yeah I've wasted my time with these trolls who argue the same things over and over. The OP constantly makes posts about hating on Jordan yet tries to turn around and say he thinks he's the GOAT? I'm out of here and putting them on ignore because they are not worth my time anymore, never were actually.

I think most who think Jordan is the GOAT myself included have Lebron top 5 or even 2, but these young Lebron lovers who probably never saw Jordan play you'd think he was a bust listening to them. I'm done with it though they're just children. Literally arguing with a kid who has winnie the pooh as an avatar, that's my fault.

Actually you are one of the most ignorant posters in this board yet you act like some kind of basketball authority like "I'm not impressed with Jokic, talk to me when he won more rings" bs stuff. Why engage in an online sports forum debate when you have an emotional capacity of a toddler who keep lashing on posters who don't agree with you like someone stole your toy? Then you come up with some kind of phrase like "when playoffs appear, the injuries disappear" crap when this playoffs is arguably one of the most injury-ravage postseason. Wth is that?

The lad has posted in this 3 page thread somewhere over 20 times trying to deflect whatever he can. Going from saying outlandish things to denigrate Lebron to make general claims like "both are great does it really matter" at an attempt to look like he doesnt care and has a balanced opinion.

He asks one question, gets an answer and goes on an old man rant about things you never said. The classic strawman.

Pretty sure he blocked me for simply exposing his insecurities on these topics but he makes it far too easy to be honest. Did me a favour. I still find it entertaining to read at least.

[bledredwine]

"It was God disguised as Michael Jordan" - Larry Bird
You tell me.

The difference is that Jokic is playing a hell of a lot better than Lebron is.
The threads keep getting more desperate as his career closes.

The real question is who dominated who more, Larry Bird over Michael Jordan or Jason Terry over Lebron?

[bledredwine]

Now, let's actually dive in just a bit. Genuine question - Has anyone here actually watched any of this series?
You'd know the answer.

Bird played with multiple hall of famers who had well established careers.
Young Jordan played with cocaine addicts and a team that originally wasn't even selling tickets.

Their head to head matchup record was 23-11 in favor of Larry's Celtics.

17-11 in the regular season and 6-0 in favor of Larry in the playoffs, when star power matters most.

Bird - 27, 8.6, 6.7 with 1.4 steals and .9 blocks
MJ. - 34.6, 6.2, 5.8 with 2.6 steals and 1.2 blocks

8 more PPG is a large difference. So saying Bird "owned" Jordan is nothing short of ignorant.

Playoffs?

Bird - 27.2, 9, 6.8 with 1.8 steals and .8 blocks
Jordan - 39.7 ppg, 6.7, 5.8 with 2.2 steals and 1.8 blocks

An efficient 40 points per game across two series with elite defense against one of the best teams of all time is amazing.

Like it or not, prime Jordan was as close to a video game cheat code as we've ever seen.
He was the dominant one in those playoffs.

If you actually watched these games, you know that Bird didn't "own" Jordan and that Jordan was
the clear best player on the court. And this was peak Bird, an amazing player that you could certainly make a case as better than
Lebron during his peak years.

Shall we also ask how much Durant "owned" Lebron during his two Golden State years? Exactly. And those stats were actually in favor of Durant half of the time

I'm generally open minded, but the results in this poll show ignorance and bias. It's Jokic over Lebron since Jokic was the actual best player.

[ChipotleWest]

Now, let's actually dive in just a bit. Genuine question - Has anyone here actually watched any of this series?
You'd know the answer.

Bird played with multiple hall of famers who had well established careers.
Young Jordan played with cocaine addicts and a team that originally wasn't even selling tickets.

Their head to head matchup record was 23-11 in favor of Larry's Celtics.

17-11 in the regular season and 6-0 in favor of Larry in the playoffs, when star power matters most.

Bird - 27, 8.6, 6.7 with 1.4 steals and .9 blocks
MJ. - 34.6, 6.2, 5.8 with 2.6 steals and 1.2 blocks

8 more PPG is a large difference. So saying Bird "owned" Jordan is nothing short of ignorant.

Playoffs?

Bird - 27.2, 9, 6.8 with 1.8 steals and .8 blocks
Jordan - 39.7 ppg, 6.7, 5.8 with 2.2 steals and 1.8 blocks

An efficient 40 points per game across two series with elite defense against one of the best teams of all time is amazing.

Like it or not, prime Jordan was as close to a video game cheat code as we've ever seen.
He was the dominant one in those playoffs.

If you actually watched these games, you know that Bird didn't "own" Jordan and that Jordan was
the clear best player on the court. And this was peak Bird, an amazing player that you could certainly make a case as better than
Lebron during his peak years.

Shall we also ask how much Durant "owned" Lebron during his two Golden State years? Exactly. And those stats were actually in favor of Durant half of the time

I'm generally open minded, but the results in this poll show ignorance and bias. It's Jokic over Lebron since Jokic was the actual best player.

Yeah by their logic with 80's Jordan not winning, we should be criticizing 2000 Lebron for not winning more. Since we're supposed to throw out all logic and not care about teammates. He got to the one FInals (why did he get swept?) but what about all the other years? What about missing the playoffs the first two years? Since once person wins championships by themselves and age doesn't matter and teammates, he should have won the title every year no excuses.

But if you let logic prevail maybe in both their cases it's because most players don't win the title when they're in their early 20's. The only ones who do were drafted by a team that already had a top 50 player of all time (Magic, Bird, Kobe, Kawhi, Duncan and Shaq was traded to Wade's Heat). So why is this a constant topic on this board? You can't tell me it's not Jordan hate. And it's funny how they'll swear to you he's either the GOAT or #2 all time yet their focus is on his failures for a reason.

[TravisScott55]

I don't think the Nuggets would have beaten 2008-2018 Bron so easily...

[art_tatum]

Young jordan and those bulls teams weren't quite equipped roster wise for championship runs. The lakers with an albeit older Lebron, brought in AD who is a top 10-15 player, and a supporting cast that were supposed to make runs at multiple chips.

Also Celtics dynasty >> than the nuggets. Maybe in a few years we can look back to see if they are closer.

[Gregoire]

Jokic dominated LeBron more than MJ dominated Bird.

[jerok]

Of course it is, posters like OP, ScrantonBulls and one and done are the biggest Lebron slurpers on the entire board.

Jordan really won 6 championships in 13 seasons (1 was injury and played 19 games, 1 return from retirement only 20 games those two don't count) while Lebron has won 4 in 21 full seasons yet you will not hear a peep about all of Lebron's failures from them only how Jordan should have won EVEN MORE RINGS with a bunch of drug addicts.

Jordan won 6. Facts.
LeBron won 4 Facts. And Lost 6. Facts. There is no hiding it.

The delusion is, if MJ loses, there is always an excuse. He always gets a pass from you.
LeBron loses and he gets crucified.

I bet LeBron would take them drug addicts to the finals though. He's proven he can do more with less.
MJ couldn't do anything unless he had the best squad. These are facts. Prove it otherwise. But you can't and shy away from it.

Like I said, you guys get in your feelings when a facts about MJ emerges.
He lost to Larry 13 straight times, LeBron lost to Jokic 11 Straight.

Simple question, who dominated who more, during that part of their careers.
But you are so butthurt to learn this fact that you go think it's diminishing MJs greatness.
MJs greatness is cemented, but that doesn't erase the fact that he lost 13 straight to Bird.

Truth Hurts sometimes man.

You have repeatedly said in this thread that Jordan is your GOAT. Can you please thoroughly explain to me the exact reasons why Jordan is your GOAT, and in particular why Jordan is above LeBron in your view? What makes Jordan greater than LeBron in your view? And why do those things outweigh the advantages your posts seem to suggest you think LeBron has over Jordan? I think some posters would be interested in seeing you explain your exact thought process and reasoning on this.

I won't get into MJs accolades as we all know what they are, part of the reason are those but..
He is GOAT for me simply because I grew up watching him, memories like my dad consoling or laughing at me when the bulls would lose a game. Playing basketball tried to emulate everything MJ did.
Taking my MJ wings poster from my room when I was young now in my workshop in my garage.
My kids rocking Js now they are starting fundamentals at their current young age. Those kinds of things.

My views closely align to what A.I's views. He thinks LeBron is best overall basketball player we'll ever see.... But MJ for him was everything cause he gave him the vision, and made him want to play basketball..

But I'm also a realist, eventually in time, the game evolves, players get better, someone will be more complete than LeBron and will challenge for GOAT status. But that doesn't change who you feel your GOAT is, but it also shouldn't clout your views that your GOAT was perfect in everyway, because none of them are.

I love going at delusional MJ fans (or 80s and 90s fans) who thinks he was perfect or the game will never be better than those times. When someone brings out facts about MJs faults, they get in their feelings, like they are in denial and its blasphemy someone's even bring it up. Are you one of those?

[lessthanjake]

Jordan won 6. Facts.
LeBron won 4 Facts. And Lost 6. Facts. There is no hiding it.

The delusion is, if MJ loses, there is always an excuse. He always gets a pass from you.
LeBron loses and he gets crucified.

I bet LeBron would take them drug addicts to the finals though. He's proven he can do more with less.
MJ couldn't do anything unless he had the best squad. These are facts. Prove it otherwise. But you can't and shy away from it.

Like I said, you guys get in your feelings when a facts about MJ emerges.
He lost to Larry 13 straight times, LeBron lost to Jokic 11 Straight.

Simple question, who dominated who more, during that part of their careers.
But you are so butthurt to learn this fact that you go think it's diminishing MJs greatness.
MJs greatness is cemented, but that doesn't erase the fact that he lost 13 straight to Bird.

Truth Hurts sometimes man.

You have repeatedly said in this thread that Jordan is your GOAT. Can you please thoroughly explain to me the exact reasons why Jordan is your GOAT, and in particular why Jordan is above LeBron in your view? What makes Jordan greater than LeBron in your view? And why do those things outweigh the advantages your posts seem to suggest you think LeBron has over Jordan? I think some posters would be interested in seeing you explain your exact thought process and reasoning on this.

I won't get into MJs accolades as we all know what they are, part of the reason are those but..
He is GOAT for me simply because I grew up watching him, memories like my dad consoling or laughing at me when the bulls would lose a game. Playing basketball tried to emulate everything MJ did.
Taking my MJ wings poster from my room when I was young now in my workshop in my garage.
My kids rocking Js now they are starting fundamentals at their current young age. Those kinds of things.

My views closely align to what A.I's views. He thinks LeBron is best overall basketball player we'll ever see.... But MJ for him was everything cause he gave him the vision, and made him want to play basketball..

But I'm also a realist, eventually in time, the game evolves, players get better, someone will be more complete than LeBron and will challenge for GOAT status. But that doesn't change who you feel your GOAT is, but it also shouldn't clout your views that your GOAT was perfect in everyway, because none of them are.

I love going at delusional MJ fans (or 80s and 90s fans) who thinks he was perfect or the game will never be better than those times. When someone brings out facts about MJs faults, they get in their feelings, like they are in denial and its blasphemy someone's even bring it up. Are you one of those?

This doesn’t really seem like much of an explanation to me. It’s basically just “I grew up watching him and had a poster of him,” followed by saying LeBron is the “best overall basketball player.” I don’t think the substance of what you said matches what you say you believe. Please explain in detail what actual objective things cause you to believe Jordan is the GOAT. I’m not asking for personal subjective things about your own life that don’t actually directly bear on Jordan’s greatness in any objective way. I want you to tell me why you believe that Michael Jordan was objectively greater than LeBron James (and everyone else).

[Patches Perry]

Obviously this comparison is absurd and only serves the purpose of holding Jordan to the same standard that Jordan supporters try to hold LeBron to. I can appreciate the tactic and the squirming that it creates.

Still, basketball is a team game, and I'd say young Jordan was better than old LeBron.

[SweaterBae]

Obviously this comparison is absurd and only serves the purpose of holding Jordan to the same standard that Jordan supporters try to hold LeBron to. I can appreciate the tactic and the squirming that it creates.

Still, basketball is a team game, and I'd say young Jordan was better than old LeBron.

And a **** ton better than young Lebron as well.

His rookie season he played 82 RS games and averaged 28/6/6/2.4 steals at awesome efficiency.

His 3rd season in the league he scored 37 a game. If you have to re-write history to make a point, your point probably isn't as valid as you think it is.

It's not squirming, it's educating stans on reality.

AND Jordan might be the best defender at his position of all time!

[jerok]

I cant take a thread seriously when someone just said "Jordan always had the best teams". The coke addicts, Oakley, rookie Pippen should have won multiple series vs the 10 or so great Hall of Famers in Celtics, Pistons who combined for 5 titles in the 80s??

Jesus, I might as well blame a 40 year old Lebron being great in game 4,5 Vs Denver. How dare he not be in his prime, having mentally weak second stars like AD. That is as logical as expecting a 23 year old MJ with a Bulls team that had a losing RS record to win games vs a legendary Celtics team .

I was talking about when he won.
MJ did have the best teams when he won, Bulls were favorites in all their championship runs. These are facts.
Are you disputing facts? Another delusional MJ fan or what?

Yeah I've wasted my time with these trolls who argue the same things over and over. The OP constantly makes posts about hating on Jordan yet tries to turn around and say he thinks he's the GOAT? I'm out of here and putting them on ignore because they are not worth my time anymore, never were actually.

I'm not hating on MJ, I'm going at you for being delusional. I'm basically stating facts that he was flawed, and you can't take it, LOL, that is why you pull out wasted my time line, and shy away after you get owned. Cause when you base your debates on myths, you'll never win.

I think most who think Jordan is the GOAT myself included have Lebron top 5 or even 2, but these young Lebron lovers who probably never saw Jordan play you'd think he was a bust listening to them. I'm done with it though they're just children. Literally arguing with a kid who has winnie the pooh as an avatar, that's my fault.

Hmm, I wonder why the guy with winnie the pooh avatar, knows more MJ history than you, the MJ expert?

Another classic line from MJ delusional and LeBron True hater "I'm done with these children" When your myths are failing you, gotta resort to that.

You probably never watched MJ played, and just a LeBron hater at heart.
I put that avatar for a reason, but bet you can't comprehend that, haha.

But you were already called out for not being able to comprehend things like what Iwasawitness noted below.

I love how this has turned into you attacking his character because you can’t comprehend how a guy who thinks MJ is the GOAT thinks he had flaws. Being the GOAT doesn’t mean you were a perfect player.

Oh and btw, he does in fact think MJ is the GOAT. Trust me, I would know, I’ve debated with him about it.

[jerok]

You have repeatedly said in this thread that Jordan is your GOAT. Can you please thoroughly explain to me the exact reasons why Jordan is your GOAT, and in particular why Jordan is above LeBron in your view? What makes Jordan greater than LeBron in your view? And why do those things outweigh the advantages your posts seem to suggest you think LeBron has over Jordan? I think some posters would be interested in seeing you explain your exact thought process and reasoning on this.

I won't get into MJs accolades as we all know what they are, part of the reason are those but..
He is GOAT for me simply because I grew up watching him, memories like my dad consoling or laughing at me when the bulls would lose a game. Playing basketball tried to emulate everything MJ did.
Taking my MJ wings poster from my room when I was young now in my workshop in my garage.
My kids rocking Js now they are starting fundamentals at their current young age. Those kinds of things.

My views closely align to what A.I's views. He thinks LeBron is best overall basketball player we'll ever see.... But MJ for him was everything cause he gave him the vision, and made him want to play basketball..

But I'm also a realist, eventually in time, the game evolves, players get better, someone will be more complete than LeBron and will challenge for GOAT status. But that doesn't change who you feel your GOAT is, but it also shouldn't clout your views that your GOAT was perfect in everyway, because none of them are.

I love going at delusional MJ fans (or 80s and 90s fans) who thinks he was perfect or the game will never be better than those times. When someone brings out facts about MJs faults, they get in their feelings, like they are in denial and its blasphemy someone's even bring it up. Are you one of those?

This doesn’t really seem like much of an explanation to me. It’s basically just “I grew up watching him and had a poster of him,” followed by saying LeBron is the “best overall basketball player.” I don’t think the substance of what you said matches what you say you believe. Please explain in detail what actual objective things cause you to believe Jordan is the GOAT. I’m not asking for personal subjective things about your own life that don’t actually directly bear on Jordan’s greatness in any objective way. I want you to tell me why you believe that Michael Jordan was objectively greater than LeBron James (and everyone else).

I guess you just can't comprehend, like that chipotle guy.
This just tells us you didn't have the privilege to grow up watching MJ and what he meant to a lot of people.
Sorry to hear that.