Let's talk Jalen Brunson foul baiting

[Woodsanity]

Even though he foul baits he barely gets calls compared to other stars.

[srhcan]

The only thing I don't like about this aspect of his game is when he puts somebody on his back and then throw his head back to get an automatic foul. Technically it looks like a correct call, but to me it's just not enjoyable basketball, very comparable to a few years ago when Harden was swinging his arms in the defender to create contact.

It's a tough thing to address because of course, offensive player should be allowed to stop and shoot but here he is really specifically looking for this to happen. I guess it's also a matter of defenders having to be more aware of that.
I think Trae Young was the "first" one to foulbait with this move but he was doing it more flagrantly than Brunson.

yes I have also noticed this bad habit of him and it immediately remind me of Trae Young. I hope somebody talks to him to not do this or else he will get same reputation as Trae

[HotelVitale]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

[jbk1234]

The thing about rewarding foul baiting in the playoffs, at all, is that whether it's the conference finals or semis, eventually it stops. Fans of the teams that lost the early series get upset. Fans of the team that was getting rewarded for foul baiting get upset. High-variance, series-to-series officiating the playoffs really doesn't help anyone in the long-run and it lends support to the perception that the league is managed.

[cgf]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

Could you share some clips of Brunson actually jumping backwards into defenders rather than just coming to a stop but still being carried forwards by his momentum? Cause that feels like a major exaggeration, but I may just be a homer.

[Lockdown504090]

its a skill, you guys need to get over it. It even happens a ton in europe. Theres no level of play with no flopping or gaming refs and defenders into generating free throws.

[HotelVitale]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

Could you share some clips of Brunson actually jumping backwards into defenders rather than just coming to a stop but still being carried forwards by his momentum? Cause that feels like a major exaggeration, but I may just be a homer.

I can maybe look later, but I was thinking of a few plays in the second half that you probably remember (they were some of the only plays he was obviously just trying for a foul with no other plan). Either way I don't think they were really egregious or him aggressively jumping backwards, just him leaning back some and making sure there was a good amount of contact. And even if they were borderline or not jumping backwards at all I still think it was disappointing to see them (and Embiid's equivalents) in a game that was giving us so much good actual basketball.

Getting right of those plays would be tough since the NBA doens't want to get into the business of judging/guessing players' intentions (were they trying to score or just foul bait?). I'm just saying that they're not good for the game, in the moment I'll take them when my team benefits of course but it'd be better overall if it wasn't an option and players were going into plays not having that on their minds and in their bags.

[blueNorange]

brunson barely gets called that thibs became a meme because of it

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=6rskMP22ib9Gcn7bulfaTg

[blueNorange]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

my man wrote an essay even tho actual stats say you’re wrong

[FreeSpiritNY]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

best reply ever on realgm

Love the stats seriously!!

[NBA4Lyfe]

"but you dont get the same calls in the playoffs that you do in the regular season"

guess the nba just picks and chooses

[bronxknicksfan1]

You put bigger guys that are slower than Brunson to defend him. He blows by them easily and is able to get them on his hip to draw the foul. Blame the strategy.

[seren]

Not a lot to be honest. I wish he was better with selling the fouls. Philly, especially Embiid, got away with way too much physicality and blatant flagrant fouls. It is a miracle Embiid was not thrown out of at least two games in the series.

[seren]

I have a simple solution for Brunson’s foul baiting. Accept the fact that he blew by you and keep your hands to yourself. Problem solved

[kodo]

The only thing I don't like about this aspect of his game is when he puts somebody on his back and then throw his head back to get an automatic foul. Technically it looks like a correct call, but to me it's just not enjoyable basketball, very comparable to a few years ago when Harden was swinging his arms in the defender to create contact.

It's a tough thing to address because of course, offensive player should be allowed to stop and shoot but here he is really specifically looking for this to happen. I guess it's also a matter of defenders having to be more aware of that.
I think Trae Young was the "first" one to foulbait with this move but he was doing it more flagrantly than Brunson.

yes I have also noticed this bad habit of him and it immediately remind me of Trae Young. I hope somebody talks to him to not do this or else he will get same reputation as Trae

The NBA did make a lot of public show of stopping this for 2021, esp. Trae. Like everything, they just forgot about it by next season.

[Bergmaniac]

Quite egregious if you are remotely objective. I was rooting strongly for the Knicks in this series but I can't ignore all the cases of blatant foul baiting from him.

But the NBA fans have always been really inconsistent with their criticism of such behaviour. Embiid and Harden have gotten an awful lot of well deserved criticism for this over the years but stars seen as more likeable like Jimmy Butler have been massive foul baiters for years but this barely gets mentioned.

[cgf]

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

Could you share some clips of Brunson actually jumping backwards into defenders rather than just coming to a stop but still being carried forwards by his momentum? Cause that feels like a major exaggeration, but I may just be a homer.

I can maybe look later, but I was thinking of a few plays in the second half that you probably remember (they were some of the only plays he was obviously just trying for a foul with no other plan). Either way I don't think they were really egregious or him aggressively jumping backwards, just him leaning back some and making sure there was a good amount of contact. And even if they were borderline or not jumping backwards at all I still think it was disappointing to see them (and Embiid's equivalents) in a game that was giving us so much good actual basketball.

Getting right of those plays would be tough since the NBA doens't want to get into the business of judging/guessing players' intentions (were they trying to score or just foul bait?). I'm just saying that they're not good for the game, in the moment I'll take them when my team benefits of course but it'd be better overall if it wasn't an option and players were going into plays not having that on their minds and in their bags.

I would appreciate seeing them again if you have the time, because I remember Jalen ensuring clear contact while attacking, but to me it looked like he was still going for the bucket…thus getting the And-1 on at least one of them…not just trying to earn the FTs the way Trae did.

Those calls are also important for him to punish bigger guys like Batum/Oubre for draping themselves all over him after getting blown by. When he isn’t getting them called he’s much more apt to get blocked from behind even after beating his man.

[HotelVitale]

#4 in points per game
#2 in drives per game
#14 in FTA per game

I guess the stats suggest he's either bad at baiting, the refs aren't biting or maybe it isn't what you think.

Not sure if you're just and-1 hunting but this is obviously skipping big steps and seems like it's designed to dodge a conversation that doesn't need dodging. We've all seen Brunson play and we all know that it's a significant part of Brunson's offensive arsenal to create fouls and bait defenders into fouling him. And we all know he's a small, not very athletic guard who runs off picks nearly every play, and that for a high volume guy he doesn't draw a lout of fouls in the natural course of his game. It doens't mean he's a phony or isn't very good at other things (he obviously is) or relies on this to be good (he doesn't), but we know the foul baiting happens and just saw it play a big role in game 6, and you know that the conclusions you're using them for aren't accurate (he's obviously quite good at baiting, the refs definitely go for it, and OP clearly avoided saying 'Brunson's a phony and he only foul baits' or anything like that). Seems more useful here to just say something like 'heads up OP that he still doesn't draw a ton of fouls and last night he used foul baiting much more than is his norm.'

About the topic everyone who's watched him for five minutes knows that on offense he mostly tries to get a step on the defense off pn'r and then respond to what defenders do with that situation. He often uses the defender-in-jail move when he comes off the screen, and it seems like he tends to bait fouls most when he gets a head of steam but no clear path to the cup and has the defender on his back. It's a good idea in those situations, often the best/smartest decision given the options. But it is still a way of manipulating some borderline rules, and last night in particular he was jumping backwards into defenders, which the NBA had said they wanted to get rid of IIRC.

I don't think it's why the Knicks won or anything and the OP was careful not to make this thread about that. But I would like to see the NBA try to let those go again and make players make plays. Especially in games like last night when the defense and offense were locked in and points were being earned well, the lamest parts of the game were those Trae-ish fouls and the corresponding ones on Embiid (though he mostly failed at his foul-hunting cuz he's not nearly as precise at it as Brunson).

my man wrote an essay even tho actual stats say you’re wrong

Was gonna troll you back but have to check on you--does your mind really think those stats somehow lock down that Brunson doesn't have foul-hunting moves in his bag? This isn't even about Brunson, just worried about some basic cognition here.

[bronxknicksfan1]

Prime example. Look at this foul Brunson gets on Batum.

[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46[/x]

He beat Batum to his spot and pulled up. He’s not throwing himself back like Trae would do to get the foul. That’s on Batum for bumping him in the back and not staying in front of him.

[BadaBoom]

Prime example. Look at this foul Brunson gets on Batum.

[x]

Read on Twitter

?s=46[/x]

He beat Batum to his spot and pulled up. He’s not throwing himself back like Trae would do to get the foul. That’s on Batum for bumping him in the back and not staying in front of him.

I agree it's still technically a foul, but the subject here is foul baiting. Here he clearly is baiting for the foul as he is not even looking at the basket when he initiates the shooting motion. In this action, his intention is not to get a clear shot at the basket but to bait for a foul.
The bellow statements are not mutually exclusive:
- The defenders have to be more intelligent when defending because in the textbook it's a foul
- Baiting for fouls (intention of drawing foul vs intention of scoring a basket) is ugly basketball

Overall, I think Brunson is lightyears away from being a Trae, Embiid, Harden type of foul baiter, he overall plays fair, but this move is the one that stands out when coming to how he can get a couple of "guaranteed" fouls.