Who is the most valuable on the Wolves

[Rendei]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

[cupcakesnake]

I don't really know.
We wouldn't be in the second round winning game 1 without both so I'm not sure what we learn from trying to answer this question.

We're nothing without our elite defense. We'd be a play-in team in the regular season. In that Phoenix matchup, without an elite defense, we're in an absolute battle without an obvious edge.

But Ant's tear has so far produced the #1 offense in the playoffs. A 124 Ortg! A whopping 6 points better than the 2nd place Indiana and 3rd place Boston. Denver is a much more solid defense, but they could not find the answers to Ant in game 1.

But how do we determine "most" or "more" valuable, especially with 2 players that share the floor? If we go by playoff on/off, the 28 minutes of Gobert without Ant (+6.7) is better than the 52 minutes of Ant without Gobert (-5.28). But this is such small samples that you need to look at what was happening in those minutes to decide if it matters. They're +24 per 100 in their minutes together, just obliterating people.

Without Gobert, we're probably getting scored on too much too win. Without Ant, we're probably losing a lot of gross defensive rock fights. Ant is the way more fun story to follow (the hero's journey, baby!) but I'm not convinced he's objectively more valuable.

I think the eternal quest to determine individual player value in a team sport is like hunting for Atlantis. It probably doesn't exist, but it's really fun to think about!

[cupcakesnake]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

What is more valuable, a floor or a ceiling?

[benhillboy]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

Excellently put. Mike is the Super Glue, Jaden the Gorilla Brand.

In the sample when Towns was out the impact I thought he had was “confirmed”. His loss means nothing. You’re gonna get better attention to detail on the defensive end with Naz, especially with McLaughlin getting minutes, and the team three point and FT volume/ efficiency won’t take a big hit. But his addition does mean something, especially versus teams actually trying to get away with wings playing the 4 where he can ruthlessly attack those matchups.

[Rendei]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

What is more valuable, a floor or a ceiling?

A proper building needs both things. But if I had to choose, I'd go with the ceiling.

[hippesthippo]

No love for KAT?

Gobert in the RS.
Ant in the PS.

[cupcakesnake]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

Excellently put. Mike is the Super Glue, Jaden the Gorilla Brand.

In the sample when Towns was out the impact I thought he had was “confirmed”. His loss means nothing. You’re gonna get better attention to detail on the defensive end with Naz, especially with McLaughlin getting minutes, and the team three point and FT volume/ efficiency won’t take a big hit. But his addition does mean something, especially versus teams actually trying to get away with wings playing the 4 where he can ruthlessly attack those matchups.

I don't see how people can watch the games and not realize how crucial KAT is to everything that's happening. His game is far from sexy, but he supplies all the oxygen for our offense. I don't think enough people get how game breaking it for KAT to just... stand there at the top of the circle.

Our best offensive sets rely on both bigs coming to the top. Like a stretched our version of horns, into a spain pick & roll with KAT operating as the guard screener. Towns pops out to space, and then the defense is forced to either guard Ant 1-on-1 with a scrambled defense, let Rudy roll unmolested to the rim, or sell out to protect the paint and leave KAT wide open. It's easy to credit the ball handler or the screener there, but without KAT (heck we can't even run it with Naz), it's just a normal pick & roll and as guardable as any normal pick & roll. KAT is the only 6'11" screener that can threaten such devastation just by popping into space and standing there waiting.

Naz is the man and we can still destroy bench lineups with Naz. Phoenix had zero depth and we completely murdered them for that. Hopefully we can continue to murder Denver's lack of depth. But against a good defensive lineup, Kat is our main lubricant. Without him we rely on a lot of problem solving.

[Kineto]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

+1000
I was going to respond exactly that before i see your post !

[cupcakesnake]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

What is more valuable, a floor or a ceiling?

A proper building needs both things. But if I had to choose, I'd go with the ceiling.

I'm pretty sure you can't build a ceiling without a floor right?
The ceiling just becomes the floor when there's nothing to hold it up.

I don't have any interest in the semantics of the metaphor, but I think there's something that gets lost in the evaluation when people talk about floor raisers and ceiling raisers.

Floor raising implies a player that helps you easily construct an offense and/or defense that makes your team good. A foundation basically. Ceiling raisers "put you over the top", and it usually implies resilient offensive players that can go above and beyond in a tight playoff series against a quality opponent. But are there any examples of success where a team doesn't have both? Is one rarer than the other?

[benhillboy]

Gobert is their biggest floor raiser. Edwards is their biggest ceiling raiser.

Excellently put. Mike is the Super Glue, Jaden the Gorilla Brand.

In the sample when Towns was out the impact I thought he had was “confirmed”. His loss means nothing. You’re gonna get better attention to detail on the defensive end with Naz, especially with McLaughlin getting minutes, and the team three point and FT volume/ efficiency won’t take a big hit. But his addition does mean something, especially versus teams actually trying to get away with wings playing the 4 where he can ruthlessly attack those matchups.

I don't see how people can watch the games and not realize how crucial KAT is to everything that's happening. His game is far from sexy, but he supplies all the oxygen for our offense. I don't think enough people get how game breaking it for KAT to just... stand there at the top of the circle.

Our best offensive sets rely on both bigs coming to the top. Like a stretched our version of horns, into a spain pick & roll with KAT operating as the guard screener. Towns pops out to space, and then the defense is forced to either guard Ant 1-on-1 with a scrambled defense, let Rudy roll unmolested to the rim, or sell out to protect the paint and leave KAT wide open. It's easy to credit the ball handler or the screener there, but without KAT (heck we can't even run it with Naz), it's just a normal pick & roll and as guardable as any normal pick & roll. KAT is the only 6'11" screener that can threaten such devastation just by popping into space and standing there waiting.

Naz is the man and we can still destroy bench lineups with Naz. Phoenix had zero depth and we completely murdered them for that. Hopefully we can continue to murder Denver's lack of depth. But against a good defensive lineup, Kat is our main lubricant. Without him we rely on a lot of problem solving.

I hear you on all that, and appreciate the analysis from a Wolves fan. I respect Towns as arguably the best shooting True Big ever. I wathced Al Horford run PNP in Atlanta from mid range as well as anyone and how lethal it was combined with Korver’s movement.

A 70% win clip in the 20 games he missed this season only gives me ammunition to discount his impact tho while I’m sure you disagree with the simplicity and sample size. The Wolves have enough veterans and defensive self-starters to where problem solving isn’t much of an issue. I think this greasing you speak of would show up more in his regular season on/off and offensive rating, granted his O rating is 135 in the playoffs so far due to stupid 3 point efficiency.

We’re are just here to reinforce our biases anyway lol, I’m no different. You’re one of my favorite posters here no question.

[cupcakesnake]

Excellently put. Mike is the Super Glue, Jaden the Gorilla Brand.

In the sample when Towns was out the impact I thought he had was “confirmed”. His loss means nothing. You’re gonna get better attention to detail on the defensive end with Naz, especially with McLaughlin getting minutes, and the team three point and FT volume/ efficiency won’t take a big hit. But his addition does mean something, especially versus teams actually trying to get away with wings playing the 4 where he can ruthlessly attack those matchups.

I don't see how people can watch the games and not realize how crucial KAT is to everything that's happening. His game is far from sexy, but he supplies all the oxygen for our offense. I don't think enough people get how game breaking it for KAT to just... stand there at the top of the circle.

Our best offensive sets rely on both bigs coming to the top. Like a stretched our version of horns, into a spain pick & roll with KAT operating as the guard screener. Towns pops out to space, and then the defense is forced to either guard Ant 1-on-1 with a scrambled defense, let Rudy roll unmolested to the rim, or sell out to protect the paint and leave KAT wide open. It's easy to credit the ball handler or the screener there, but without KAT (heck we can't even run it with Naz), it's just a normal pick & roll and as guardable as any normal pick & roll. KAT is the only 6'11" screener that can threaten such devastation just by popping into space and standing there waiting.

Naz is the man and we can still destroy bench lineups with Naz. Phoenix had zero depth and we completely murdered them for that. Hopefully we can continue to murder Denver's lack of depth. But against a good defensive lineup, Kat is our main lubricant. Without him we rely on a lot of problem solving.

I hear you on all that, and appreciate the analysis from a Wolves fan. I respect Towns as arguably the best shooting True Big ever. I wathced Al Horford run PNP in Atlanta from mid range as well as anyone and how lethal it was combined with Korver’s movement.

A 70% win clip in the 20 games he missed this season only gives me ammunition to discount his impact tho while I’m sure you disagree with the simplicity and sample size. The Wolves have enough veterans and defensive self-starters to where problem solving isn’t much of an issue. I think this greasing you speak of would show up more in his regular season on/off and offensive rating, granted his O rating is 135 in the playoffs so far due to stupid 3 point efficiency.

We’re are just here to reinforce our biases anyway lol, I’m no different. You’re one of my favorite posters here no question.

Appreciate it!
I'm not huge Towns supporter or anything. I think his game has serious limitations and think his decision making is junk.

I know what you mean about the win clip, but watching those games without Towns, despite the wins, it felt obvious how much harder everything was. On one hand, it made me believe in the team a lot more because here we are figuring out different ways to win on a nightly basis and gutting it out. It showed a resilience I wasn't sure this team had. But despite our success, it was clear how Towns is simply our only ticket to easy offense. It's the worst idea ever for a defense to leave him at the top of the key, but it's easy to force teams to do just that. Ant gets to attack in space, and the minute he's crowded he knows Kat is behind him open. Denver could not figure it out last night and it's not like you can just stick KCP on Towns.

There's a ton of ammunition, both on film and in the numbers to pick at Kat's value, so I don't think anyone is dumb for thinking so. But those same numbers basically support Towns has been a huge plus on both ends this year so I feel like it's not the right time to bag on him. Wait for his next ridiculous foul or turnover though, and bag all you want

[Rendei]

What is more valuable, a floor or a ceiling?

A proper building needs both things. But if I had to choose, I'd go with the ceiling.

I'm pretty sure you can't build a ceiling without a floor right?
The ceiling just becomes the floor when there's nothing to hold it up.

I don't have any interest in the semantics of the metaphor, but I think there's something that gets lost in the evaluation when people talk about floor raisers and ceiling raisers.

Floor raising implies a player that helps you easily construct an offense and/or defense that makes your team good. A foundation basically. Ceiling raisers "put you over the top", and it usually implies resilient offensive players that can go above and beyond in a tight playoff series against a quality opponent. But are there any examples of success where a team doesn't have both? Is one rarer than the other?

Well, no. If you want to be technical, the floor has also been raised off of the ground so it wont be a part of the foundation, nor will it be necessary to keep the ceiling in place.

The foundation in this example is... the team I guess? Who cares. It's also true that defending my metaphor makes it much less accurate.

[benhillboy]

Two great vids on game 1. Cliff notes: Gobert and Ant are pretty good.

https://youtu.be/kPaMI3OgYnw?si=RvMIC-oSRuS-QIDA

https://youtu.be/teH9jzsEy98?si=Bfge8UxaiptuSeuf

I especially liked the mention of KAT’s center of gravity guarding Jokic and how Gobert’s roaming limits the Nuggets offensive glass.

[Jadoogar]

Offense is more important than defense. Gobert has been incredible (especially in G1 of the Nuggets series) but Edwards is more important because there aren't many players that can create shots like him in the playoffs.

[OfficialRef]

Wolves were going nowhere before Rudy was there. They had no defense and only when Rudy came did they become a great defensive team.

They beat the Sons because Rudy completely locked down the paint and made Phx take awkward contested fadeaways.

[WentzerWuver]

Rudy. What he does goes underappreciated for a big. He also is able to cover KAT's lapses defensively, he's pivotal to the Wolves.

Yet these fitment posters think Suggs is much more valuable than Mobley, who has much more offensively abilities than the older Gobert ever achieved Lol

It makes no sense....

[One_and_Done]

This didn't age well for Gobert backers.