PassMeTheBall wrote:Patches Perry wrote:PassMeTheBall wrote:
There's no debate whatsoever for Lebron as the GOAT which is why they didn't bother to wait for him to retire. All Lebron has is longevity related things like more All-Star appearances & All-NBAs & stat totals. But Jordan beats him in everything else from more rings, MVPs, FMVPs, greater at both offense & defense, way more individual season leader awards. And Jordan did all of it in the span of 8 less seasons. The debate between them was realistically over over a decade ago but the media makes money from this debate.
There is no debate in your mind based on your arbitrary selective criteria, which is fine, you can have your opinion, but objectively there is obviously plenty of debate because LeBron has accomplished enough to warrant the debate. You just don't value the advantages LeBron has over Jordan as you admit by dismissing longevity. I could easily dismiss team-related accomplishments, such as rings and FMVPs, in favor of longevity-related accomplishments, which puts LeBron comfortably over Jordan. Longevity requires sustained excellence while team accomplishments are too dependent on external circumstances to be a good indicator of individual greatness. That said, I recognize that the debate is in the things you value, and we all value different things to different degrees.
The thing is Lebron had more team help over his career & he still has less rings. He also has less MVPs, isn't a greater scorer or greater on defense. He only has 2 season leader awards in his entire career while Jordan has 10 scoring titles, a 3x steals leader & won defensive player of the year. Valuing only strictly longevity feels flawed to me. Any sport you're in you're playing it to win. So I think championships where you're the greatest on the team should count highly towards your legacy. Why do you think Lebron even joined Miami to begin with? He was worried about his legacy since he was already getting close to a decade in the league without winning. Only valuing longevity just feels flawed to me since there's way more than longevity about a player's legacy & where they should rank all time. Jordan also is the main reason why so many all time greats have no rings while almost every top player won while Lebron has played during his own era. Lebron really only has stopped George & DeRozan from winning anything when he kept beating the Pacers & Raptors when he was in the East.
I don't fault players for wanting to win, that is the point of the game, but ultimately it's a team accomplishment. What matters is contributions towards winning. You're right that at times, LeBron has had greater teammates than Jordan, but in those years, he also played against much greater competition. The 2017/2018 Warriors are far far better than any team Jordan beat, and arguably better than the Celtics teams Jordan played against and never overcame. The 2016 Warriors team that LeBron's Cavs beat won 73 games. Jordan's Bulls never beat a team that good.
To be clear, I don't think longevity is the only thing that matters. I think Jordan is clearly a better scorer than LeBron and likely a better defender too, but LeBron clearly makes up that ground and then some with his floor game and passing ability. LeBron obviously does have a longevity advantage, but I would argue he also matches (but not surpasses) Jordan's peak. I've been watching basketball since 1990 and never seen a better basketball player than 2013-2018 LeBron.
Another advantage for LeBron against Jordan for me is the lack of success for Jordan in any situation but the Phil system with Pippen. 1 playoff win without Pippen, zero playoff success without Phil. LeBron has won with three different teams, different coaches, different casts. This proves a championship level of adaptability that I value a lot if we're talking about all-time greats.
All this to say, there's plenty of reason to take Jordan over LeBron all-time, but there are good arguments for LeBron. I'd argue Kareem has an argument too. And honestly, if someone values winning over stats and individual accomplishments, it's hard to argue that Bill Russell isn't in the conversation as well. 11 titles, 5 MVPs is crazy. For me, I don't value winning and titles as much as some other people, but if you do, I don't know how Russell isn't 1st tier.
