Jokic is NOT him

[Cubbies2120]

3 time MVP, who would have lost all 3 MVPS if Embiid were healthy. Embiid was leading voters or neck and neck when he got hurt each time.

Somehow Embiid would have three-peated in MVP without rings, something that was held against Jokic....

Actually, without making it past the 2nd round*

You okay? Must be having a melt down with the Nuggets two losses away from Cancun.

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

Just curious how the same logic you used on Jokic's 3rd MVP campaign (last year) doesn't apply to Embiid in your scenario...

"Jokic can't win 3 MVPs because he has no rings", but your post says Embiid would have won those 3...without making it out of the 2nd round....make it make sense?

Jokic is putting up 27/15/9 on 54% this playoff run
Murray is putting up 20/6/5 on 37.5% (!!!) this playoff run

I think it's clear where the issue is...

Season ain't over yet - Nuggets have been down 3-1 in the Jokic era before, multiple times, and overcame it. I wouldn't celebrate too early just yet...

[hardenASG13]

Somehow Embiid would have three-peated in MVP without rings, something that was held against Jokic....

Actually, without making it past the 2nd round*

You okay? Must be having a melt down with the Nuggets two losses away from Cancun.

Sent from my SM-S928B using Tapatalk

Just curious how the same logic you used on Jokic's 3rd MVP campaign (last year) doesn't apply to Embiid in your scenario...

"Jokic can't win 3 MVPs because he has no rings", but your post says Embiid would have won those 3...without making it out of the 2nd round....make it make sense?

Jokic is putting up 27/15/9 on 54% this playoff run
Murray is putting up 20/6/5 on 37.5% (!!!) this playoff run

I think it's clear where the issue is...

Season ain't over yet - Nuggets have been down 3-1 in the Jokic era before, multiple times, and overcame it. I wouldn't celebrate too early just yet...

Yeah how's he doing against the first good team he's faced in the last two years though (please don't list the names of players on the rosters he played last year again. Those teams weren't good and you know it)?

I haven't seen Jamal Murray be called "the best basketball player we've ever seen," though. Cute numbers for Jokic. His leadership and defense have been downright embarrassing for a guy people here say is having a GOAT peak. Sometimes you have to see beyond the numbers. Tried to tell you...

[AleksandarN]

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

Been trying to tell you that, repeatedly. First real competition and he's being completely exposed. The wolves are really enjoying the layup line. Jokic doesn't lead or elevate in adversity, and didn't have to last year. It was the weakest path I've ever seen.

2 games out of over 60 or so odd games play off games doesn’t make a career. Nice try. Yes I can be pissed off at him. That’s doesn’t mean he is some under performing playoff choker as others in NBA history.

[EmpireFalls]

Joker’s offense has still been mostly fine but his defense has been really bad, in fact the Lakers series it was also bad. Not a good sign.

[AleksandarN]

Jokic this series reminds me of 2010 Lebron giving up on the Cavs knowing they don’t have it

This is his first real adversity though. Lebron balled in many playoffs before that, against rosters better than his. This is Jokics first taste (even though Denver had homecourt and was the favorites here), and he's crumbling.

Lebron played worse with a better supporting cast in 2011 when the Mavs beat the Heat.

[AleksandarN]

Joker’s offense has still been mostly fine but his defense has been really bad, in fact the Lakers series it was also bad. Not a good sign.

No Jokic offfense has not been fine. You are the best player in the league and you shoot 13 times. That’s unacceptable. This is almost as bad as Kobe ‘s Lakers vs Suns bad aggression.

[hardenASG13]

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

Been trying to tell you that, repeatedly. First real competition and he's being completely exposed. The wolves are really enjoying the layup line. Jokic doesn't lead or elevate in adversity, and didn't have to last year. It was the weakest path I've ever seen.

2 games out of over 60 or so odd games play off games doesn’t make a career. Nice try. Yes I can be pissed off at him. That’s doesn’t mean he is some under performing playoff choker as others in NBA history.

And just because he has a title doesn't mean he's shown he can lead his team over another good team. Because he hasn't! Name them if he has. Say the bubble clippers if you want. That group has proven so much. Others in NBA history haven't been repeatedly called "the best player we've ever seen." For good reason. Jokic needs to figure this out, or at least show some leadership, as those claims are looking really, really bad.

[BelgradeNugget]

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

Watch last years playoffs. He had turned up his aggressiveness to 11 and was going off in first quarters. This year he just shows little of that. It makes him look he doesn’t care and the Nuggets have taken on his persona this playoffs.

Maybe some things to consider here.

Last year before playoffs started, in 22-23 regular season, he was 47th in total minutes and played 69 games. He mised some games at the end of season and was fresh for playoffs.
This regular season he was 9th in total minutes, and is 5th in the playoffs, or 1st in total minutes of players still playing.
He is now 8th in playoffs in total distance and by far 1st among centers. All while banging on the post, running offense...

Maybe this Nuggets tactics of WGAF about bench, starters will save us, is not so smart after all.
If they keep this way Jokic will turn from iron-man into injury prone player in 2 years. Even worst for MPJ. He had 3 back surgeries, he is playing with foot brace, but WGAF let's burn him down. Same storie for AG, Muray, KCP. But huray Nuggets used 29th, 32nd and 37th pick on Julian Strawther, Jalen Pickett and Hunter Tyson. Backup bigs DJ and Zake Nnaji.

So I still don't think they will keep playing like this but if they beat Twolfes they have 30% chance in WCF and 10% if they somehow reach the finals.

[ohmuri]

It's not like he hasn't faced being totally overwhelmed as a team and still delivered, he did against the Warriors champs. Last year he took over as well increasing his load when needed, ie against the Suns' scoring explosion. Wolves' defense is better than any of thoses, but I also "demand" to a player of Jokic's caliber to be agressive and impose himself when the rest isn't working. I think he needs to be a scorer first and then if the defense overplays distribute.

As for the defense, I kind of understand it. He can't get in foul trouble or the Nuggets are dead, it's pretty evident to me that he doesn't even challenge to avoid fouling.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic this series reminds me of 2010 Lebron giving up on the Cavs knowing they don’t have it

This is his first real adversity though. Lebron balled in many playoffs before that, against rosters better than his. This is Jokics first taste (even though Denver had homecourt and was the favorites here), and he's crumbling.

Lebron played worse with a better supporting cast in 2011 when the Mavs beat the Heat.

Yep, one blemish on a 15 year sustained peak. He did play defense though. Really good defense. I'm sorry, I'm an eye test guy as you know.....and the Jokic to Lebron/MJ/Shaq comparisons are looking really bad, just as they always have to me.

[Cubbies2120]

Been trying to tell you that, repeatedly. First real competition and he's being completely exposed. The wolves are really enjoying the layup line. Jokic doesn't lead or elevate in adversity, and didn't have to last year. It was the weakest path I've ever seen.

2 games out of over 60 or so odd games play off games doesn’t make a career. Nice try. Yes I can be pissed off at him. That’s doesn’t mean he is some under performing playoff choker as others in NBA history.

And just because he has a title doesn't mean he's shown he can lead his team over another good team. Because he hasn't! Name them if he has. Say the bubble clippers if you want. That group has proven so much. Others in NBA history haven't been repeatedly called "the best player we've ever seen." For good reason. Jokic needs to figure this out, or at least show some leadership, as those claims are looking really, really bad.

So just to clarify, he was expected to beat:
NBA Champions in 2020 (before his MVP ascension)
WC Champions in 2021 (with a max contract sitting in suit on the bench)
NBA Champions in 2022 (with 2 max contracts sitting in suits on the bench, #2 and #3 options)

Is that correct? Can we retroactively apply this logic to all ATG talents in the past? Take Pippen and Rodman off the Bulls when they face the Jazz, Jordan is getting it done? Take Bosh & Wade off the Heat and LeBron is beating the Spurs?

Y'all acting like he's over here losing to the Trae Young Hawks

[hardenASG13]

2 games out of over 60 or so odd games play off games doesn’t make a career. Nice try. Yes I can be pissed off at him. That’s doesn’t mean he is some under performing playoff choker as others in NBA history.

And just because he has a title doesn't mean he's shown he can lead his team over another good team. Because he hasn't! Name them if he has. Say the bubble clippers if you want. That group has proven so much. Others in NBA history haven't been repeatedly called "the best player we've ever seen." For good reason. Jokic needs to figure this out, or at least show some leadership, as those claims are looking really, really bad.

So just to clarify, he was expected to beat:
NBA Champions in 2020 (before his MVP ascension)
WC Champions in 2021 (with a max contract sitting in suit on the bench)
NBA Champions in 2022 (with 2 max contracts sitting in suits on the bench, #2 and #3 options)

Is that correct? Can we retroactively apply this logic to all ATG talents in the past? Take Pippen and Rodman off the Bulls when they face the Jazz, Jordan is getting it done? Take Bosh & Wade off the Heat and LeBron is beating the Spurs?

Nope, he wasn't supposed to beat any of them. Because he wasn't playing the best basketball we've ever seen at that point lol (he hasnt, ever). He is expected to win this series though, for all the accolades thrown at him. As you know I've questioned what this "GOAT peak" would look like against an actual quality opponent for the past year. We're seeing it now, and so far it's really, really embarrassing for alot of posters here. You've made some pretty bold claims and doubled down on then repeatedly, just as I have on my claims that last year proved nothing to me. Let's see how it ends up!

[hauntedcomputer]

2023 RGM: "We love him. He just doesn't care out there!!!"

2024 RGM: "We hate him. He just doesn't care out there!!!"

[Woodsanity]

He is playing like it this series. We can talk about all of the injuries and not having an Allstar teammate but the problem is that he is not stepping up. This is the worst series I seen him play. He seems like he doesn’t care. He has no drive. Not aggressive at all on both ends of the floor. He has poor body language.

He is playing mediocre by his standards but even if he played at his best it would make no difference with Jamal Murray playing worse than Kwame Brown.

[Cubbies2120]

And just because he has a title doesn't mean he's shown he can lead his team over another good team. Because he hasn't! Name them if he has. Say the bubble clippers if you want. That group has proven so much. Others in NBA history haven't been repeatedly called "the best player we've ever seen." For good reason. Jokic needs to figure this out, or at least show some leadership, as those claims are looking really, really bad.

So just to clarify, he was expected to beat:
NBA Champions in 2020 (before his MVP ascension)
WC Champions in 2021 (with a max contract sitting in suit on the bench)
NBA Champions in 2022 (with 2 max contracts sitting in suits on the bench, #2 and #3 options)

Is that correct? Can we retroactively apply this logic to all ATG talents in the past? Take Pippen and Rodman off the Bulls when they face the Jazz, Jordan is getting it done? Take Bosh & Wade off the Heat and LeBron is beating the Spurs?

Nope, he wasn't supposed to beat any of them. Because he wasn't playing the best basketball we've ever seen at that point lol (he hasnt, ever). He is expected to win this series though, for all the accolades thrown at him. As you know I've questioned what this "GOAT peak" would look like against an actual quality opponent for the past year. We're seeing it now, and so far it's really, really embarrassing for alot of posters here. You've made some pretty bold claims and doubled down on then repeatedly, just as I have on my claims that last year proved nothing to me. Let's see how it ends up!

We will see. I still think the Nuggets win the series, but it's entirely possible they're losing to the team that becomes the eventual champion, again...

Series not over, one of us is gonna eat crow

[dhsilv2]

The whole he is/isn't him thing needs to die a painful death.

This. There is only one Him and it ain't Jokic

I'm pretty sure everyone in the NBA goes by him.

[Pelly24]

The real problem is that Jamal Murray is *not* him lol. His issue is that he always kinda relies on hot streaks and his floor is lower than an actual All-NBA level guy's.

[dhsilv2]

I don't like that he's getting away with being a zero defensively. No one else with his reputation would skate on that.

He was at least competing on that end last year. This year he's a traffic cone and might as well not even be there. And its hurting them a lot now that they're playing a real team.

Not trying to excuse it, because I believe his defense has been inexcusable, but I just want to add a nugget to this (see what I did there?)

Through seven playoff games thus far: Deandre Jordan (9 mins, game 3 vs LAL) and Zeke Nnaji (3 mins tonight).

12 minutes total for your backup bigs through seven playoff games and three of those minutes were garbage time. That's an organizational failure more than anything else. And it has been like that all season.

The truth is, Jokic should have never been in the running to win MVP in the first place. It should have been Shai and Luka battling for it. The Nuggets needed Jokic to play at the level he did, with the minutes he played just to be in the running to win the division. Jokic played 79 games this year coming off a championship at 35 mins per night. It's commendable, but it probably should have been 70-72 and 32 minutes a night. He seriously has nothing left to prove in the regular season. If the Nuggets don't find capable backups in the frontcourt (PF/C), however, the same thing will happen again next season.

32 minutes a night is hovering right above prime Manu Ginobili minutes. I don't think its realistic to expect any star with a major team role to do that. Even Steph was playing 34mpg during '16 when he was consistently sitting out 4th quarters. Shaq was putting in 40mpg seasons in our 3-peat years. Jokic playing 35mpg is an extraordinarily generous load as far as MVP level players are concerned.

Could they use a better backup C? Absolutely. That's an organizational failure without a doubt. But I have no issue with his minutes, especially if he's going to spend half of them standing around while opposing players waltz to the rim.

Only 40 guys in the whole league played 33 or more minutes this year. This is a very different league than when Manu was playing.

[sikma42]

Not trying to excuse it, because I believe his defense has been inexcusable, but I just want to add a nugget to this (see what I did there?)

Through seven playoff games thus far: Deandre Jordan (9 mins, game 3 vs LAL) and Zeke Nnaji (3 mins tonight).

12 minutes total for your backup bigs through seven playoff games and three of those minutes were garbage time. That's an organizational failure more than anything else. And it has been like that all season.

The truth is, Jokic should have never been in the running to win MVP in the first place. It should have been Shai and Luka battling for it. The Nuggets needed Jokic to play at the level he did, with the minutes he played just to be in the running to win the division. Jokic played 79 games this year coming off a championship at 35 mins per night. It's commendable, but it probably should have been 70-72 and 32 minutes a night. He seriously has nothing left to prove in the regular season. If the Nuggets don't find capable backups in the frontcourt (PF/C), however, the same thing will happen again next season.

32 minutes a night is hovering right above prime Manu Ginobili minutes. I don't think its realistic to expect any star with a major team role to do that. Even Steph was playing 34mpg during '16 when he was consistently sitting out 4th quarters. Shaq was putting in 40mpg seasons in our 3-peat years. Jokic playing 35mpg is an extraordinarily generous load as far as MVP level players are concerned.

Could they use a better backup C? Absolutely. That's an organizational failure without a doubt. But I have no issue with his minutes, especially if he's going to spend half of them standing around while opposing players waltz to the rim.

Only 40 guys in the whole league played 33 or more minutes this year. This is a very different league than when Manu was playing.

To be fair, looks like the majority of all stars play that many minutes per game. If Jokic can’t handle it, then it might be a knock on his ability. Repeating is hard for a reason tbf


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[lambchop]

Joker’s offense has still been mostly fine but his defense has been really bad, in fact the Lakers series it was also bad. Not a good sign.

No Jokic offfense has not been fine. You are the best player in the league and you shoot 13 times. That’s unacceptable. This is almost as bad as Kobe ‘s Lakers vs Suns bad aggression.

He wasn't passing up shots though. He simply wasn't getting any open looks. Whoever the Wolves put on him seems to be fine in single coverage. They force him to put the ball on the floor and he doesn't look as comfortable as he usually does. Normally Jokic can dribble and simply look off other defenders as his teammates move into spots. However, the Wolves swarm everything and that is forcing the Nuggets into shot clock violations.

Another issue is that they need about 6 to 8 seconds just to get over half court. And, even when they do, their still somewhere in the corner near half court. Then they call some lame offense and have zero flow. The Wolves are putting on a clinic. I'm really not sure how the Nuggets solve this.