Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated

[SelfishPlayer]

c'mon it must be a joke... are you talking about the 2007 Finals?
When Lebron finish second in the East Conference with 50 wins?

When if he had been in the West Conference he would have certainly won fewer games and would have finished at least behind

Dallas 67
Phoenix 61
SAS 58
Houston 52
Utah 51

as #6 should have faced SAS in the first round and we know the sweep in the Finals.

He went to the Finals by himself, facts. He almost won Finals MVP by himself in a loss to the Warriors.

Facts are that in 6 seasons in the West:

#2 playoff missed
#2 losses 1st round
#1 loss WCF
#1 bubble gum

Beginning at age 34. Jokic is 29. LeBron won his 2nd CHIP at 29.

[mcmurphy]

He went to the Finals by himself, facts. He almost won Finals MVP by himself in a loss to the Warriors.

Facts are that in 6 seasons in the West:

#2 playoff missed
#2 losses 1st round
#1 loss WCF
#1 bubble gum

Beginning at age 34. Jokic is 29. LeBron won his 2nd CHIP at 29.

yep, with 2 All-Stars of which one was All-Nba 3rd team

the same of a team composed by Jokic, Lillard (All-Nba 3rd team in place of Murray) and Paul George (All-Star in place of MPJ)
mmmmmh... not a good team

edit:
Wade and Bosh had 30 and 27 years old... not 33 and 34 as Dame and PG

[kenwood3333]

Jordan needs Pippen
Lebron needs Wade/Kyrie
Who does Jokic has?

[SelfishPlayer]

Jordan needs Pippen
Lebron needs Wade/Kyrie
Who does Jokic has?

MPJ and Murray are elite shooters with tremendous size for their positions. Outside of the Splash brothers, they may be the best three point shooting duo in NBA history, certainly they are top 5 the LAST THREE SEASONS.

[SelfishPlayer]

Facts are that in 6 seasons in the West:

#2 playoff missed
#2 losses 1st round
#1 loss WCF
#1 bubble gum

Beginning at age 34. Jokic is 29. LeBron won his 2nd CHIP at 29.

yep, with 2 All-Stars of which one was All-Nba 3rd team

the same of a team composed by Jokic, Lillard (All-Nba 3rd team in place of Murray) and Paul George (All-Star in place of MPJ)
mmmmmh... not a good team

edit:
Wade and Bosh had 30 and 27 years old... not 33 and 34 as Dame and PG

You made Jokic's teammates worse. MPJ and Murray thrive in their roles with Jokic as the point center. It's difficult to replace them, stars don't do well with a reduced role most of the time. Healthy versions of Kris Middleton and CJ McCollum are the only sort of guys that I feel could replace Murray and MPJ relatively seamlessly.

[Damienfan]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

Embiid?

The bum we eliminated who had a way better player than Jamal Murray as his 2nd option?

grifter

[BarbaGrizz]

Repeat after me:

Every player is a system player!
Every player is a system player!
Every player is a system player!
Every player is a system player!

[Optms]

Overrated on RealGM, yeah.

The media doesn't have him rated as the GOAT or projected to be the GOAT like some of the jokic stans on here do.

[moderndarwin]

He compiles stats against teams with no real big men defenders. Watching him against Minny it’s like he finally has a team that exposes his weaknesses. Naz Reid making it difficult for him AND an actual athletic good scoring wing that exposes his terrible rim protection.

[GeorgeSears]

Luka's currently shooting below 40% and averaging 4 TOs per game. Embiid didn't make it to the 2nd round.

Don't count your chickens, as I said. The Mavs might also lose in the 2nd round as well.

[payton2kemp]

I've been saying this since his first mvp. He's an incredible system player, but he lacks competitive fire and toughness to be an ATG player. His MVP as a 6 seed will be locked at as THE worst mvp season in history. It'll make the Rose and Nash wins seem unanimous.

Jokic is a guy that needs a superstar like Murray to make his game work. He can't take over without that second punch on the perimeter the way other ATGs could. Now that Murray has been exposed, so has Jokic. What's funny is that those really watching told you this year's ago when he only got the sixth seed without him.

To me he is the third best player in the NBA - Luka and Embiid are comfortably ahead of him. Last year he took advantage of an injured field, and a weakened conference in a transition year. He had Murray playing like a superstar and to his credit got it done. But his awards don't match his greatness and in a few years everyone will come around to what I'm saying here right now.

Embiid the guy who can make it out of the first round?

[mcmurphy]

Beginning at age 34. Jokic is 29. LeBron won his 2nd CHIP at 29.

yep, with 2 All-Stars of which one was All-Nba 3rd team

the same of a team composed by Jokic, Lillard (All-Nba 3rd team in place of Murray) and Paul George (All-Star in place of MPJ)
mmmmmh... not a good team

edit:
Wade and Bosh had 30 and 27 years old... not 33 and 34 as Dame and PG

You made Jokic's teammates worse. MPJ and Murray thrive in their roles with Jokic as the point center. It's difficult to replace them, stars don't do well with a reduced role most of the time. Healthy versions of Kris Middleton and CJ McCollum are the only sort of guys that I feel could replace Murray and MPJ relatively seamlessly.

Jokic (28%)-Murray (29.5%)-MPJ (19.5%) this post-season had a USG% combined of 77%

Jokic (26%)-Lillard (26%, with McCollum had 28%)-PG (25%, this post-season 24.7%) would have the same USG%

if Jokic's load was reduced he would only be happy


Lebron-Wade-Bosh had a USG% combined of 84%.

[jehosafats]

Jokic a system player?

What exactly is the system he’s playing in?

I think The Joker benefits from the spacing more than just about anybody. Certain HoF level players were absolutely a product of their era. I feel like he's one of them. The rules and the spacing elevate his style of play. But were this a different era, they might not excel as much as they have. It's why people who view Lebron's greatness as merely cumulative miss the point that he's played through many phases of the game and still excelled.

[maxpower8888]

All of the Embiid fans since Denver went down 0-2.

[Jabroni Lames]

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

There’s more top end talent at C than ever before. The old school bully bigs can’t stay on the floor because they need to be able to hedge and recover to the perimeter.

It just goes to show how much more talented Jokic is than the current generation of Cs. He’s nimble enough to stay on a modern spaced out, bulky enough to work in the post, skilled enough to shoot 3s, and otherworldly as a playmaker. MJ got to regularly posterize stiffs like Greg Ostertag and Shawn Bradley.

I was always find it hilarious how some people think that basketball is the only endeavor in the world that is immune to constant evolution. Somehow, everything and everybody got worse since MJ retired.

Name them

Really? Isn't it obvious to everyone that 90% of centers in MJ's day, would be "at best" backup centers in today's NBA.

Simple example: Zach Edey would be the unanimous #1 pick, if he was coming out of college during MJ's day. Now GM's aren't convinced if he's even an NBA player. At best, a situational big, like Boban.

Jokic and other superstars are facing a much larger talent pool and vastly more skilled talent pool, than ever before, which makes it much harder to dominate like MJ did back in the day.

[Harry Garris]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

... and in the first 75 playoff career games of Lebron (not the old Lebron) there are more worst performances compared to Jokic

Jokic
2 of 75 GameScore <10
8 of 75 GameScore <15
17 of 75 GameScore <20

Lebron
6 of 75 GameScore <10
13 of 75 GameScore <15
25 of 75 GameScore <20

it's incredible how 2 games below his standard for a whole series of comments to flourish that say he's overrated

The point wasn't to compare Lebron's box scores with Jokic's box scores, I don't think you can accurately do that across two very different eras of basketball anyway. It was just to say that Lebron left us with an expectation of how the best player in the league should perform every night that's maybe too high of a standard for other guys to realistically reach.

[Jabroni Lames]

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

There’s more top end talent at C than ever before. The old school bully bigs can’t stay on the floor because they need to be able to hedge and recover to the perimeter.

It just goes to show how much more talented Jokic is than the current generation of Cs. He’s nimble enough to stay on a modern spaced out, bulky enough to work in the post, skilled enough to shoot 3s, and otherworldly as a playmaker. MJ got to regularly posterize stiffs like Greg Ostertag and Shawn Bradley.

I was always find it hilarious how some people think that basketball is the only endeavor in the world that is immune to constant evolution. Somehow, everything and everybody got worse since MJ retired.

You mentione Ostertag and Bradley lol? Do you want me to reply with some other centers who player basketball in the 80s/90s?? There were a few that were better lol…ill wait for your rebuttal

lol. You have to span 30+ years to find like 7 HoF or all-star centers who could give Jokic trouble? And not all of those guys peaks were at the same time, so that's kind of a cherry pick.

But you're also missing one important point: Jokic can operate above the break and shoot 3s and make plays. He would draw those centers out of the paint, which makes part of their effectiveness much less, while opening up lanes for his teammates to drive & cut. I definitely can't envision Shaq, Smits, Mutombo and all the other guys you mentioned later in their career, flashing out to the perimeter to guard Jokic.

[docholliday99]

Absolutely not, Minnesota just matches up outrageously well against Denver. Karl-Anthony Towns is absolutely elite at containing one-on-one against his match-up, which allows Minnesota to completely dry up any passing opportunities (especially when Rudy Gobert is allowed to roam).

People are just completely behind on appreciating how great Karl-Anthony Towns is defensively, when he doesn't commit stupid fouls.

Have to give props to Finch, as a Minny fan pointed out in another thread (maybe it was you) how he stopped the drop coverage that KAT was playing in to their current system, add in Gobert and Conley the following year and now they're all finally healthy. KAT has been really impressive. Have to applaud Connelly as well, I always liked the idea of pairing Gobert and KAT despite their rough start, don't think many outside Minny could see it all clicking as well as it has, I certainly did not, not to the level they're at. He helped tweak the Nuggets by bringing in Gordon and gambled with Minny - he should be given an honorary EOTY just for having the guts to make that trade.

As for Jokic, the narrative in here from some are just silly. The guy needs help and doesn't really have any, he's certainly top 1-2 in the world, everything else is just hate.

[AleksandarN]

Overrated on RealGM, yeah.

The media doesn't have him rated as the GOAT or projected to be the GOAT like some of the jokic stans on here do.

He is in the top 20 all time in the media. That’s properly rated given he is not even finished his career.

[DimesandKnicks]

But it’s worth noting that Jokic has 4 seasons with as higher or higher D-EPM than LeBron had in 2006-2007. Jokic’s average D-RAPTOR in his peak years (starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s D-RAPTOR in any season of his entire career (including 2006-2007). LeBron’s career DRAPM is quite similar to Jokic’s career DRAPM (2.8 vs. 2.2). LeBron’s average D-LEBRON just in the years in the data set that he was top 10 in DPOY voting (so, 2009-2010 through 2013-2014) is lower than Jokic’s career average D-LEBRON and lower than Jokic’s D-LEBRON in each of the last three seasons. Jokic’s average DRPM in his peak years (again, starting 2020-2021) is higher than LeBron’s DRPM in 2006-2007 as well as every year of LeBron’s defensive peak. The data definitely doesn’t suggest that Jokic is a particularly inferior defender to LeBron. So yeah, I think you could create an elite defense with Jokic similar to how the 2006-2007 Cavs created an elite defense with LeBron, though the personnel to do it with him wouldn’t be the same as with LeBron since they do not play the same position.

The eye test certainly doesn’t. That’s why I’m inquiring how that metric is formulated. Jokic isn’t a good defender, at his peak Lebron was a great defender yet these advance metrics have them in the same tier. I’d assume that defensive rebounding is heavily weight in the formula.

I don’t think that’s correct at all—these are players who were praised for defense. As was Larry Hughes, as another example.

They had solid defenders. Good at best. No one was elite. Hughes wasn’t the same defender after breaking his foot.

The bottom line is that that team was absolutely completely carried by its defense. They had a below-average offense in the regular season, and an awful offense in the playoffs. But they had an elite defense in the regular season, and an historically great defense in the playoffs. Their defense is very obviously what led them to the Finals. And defense is an inherently team effort and LeBron wasn’t even really a noted defender at all individually at the time. So the idea that LeBron carried that team is *extremely* dubious. He carried the load on a side of the ball that the team was genuinely bad at, while just being another cog in the wheel on the side of the ball that actually carried the team to success. There’s really a much better argument that Mike Brown carried that team, with his coaching on the defensive side of the ball.

He brought a team that would otherwise be one of the worst teams in the league without him. Fair?