Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated

[DimesandKnicks]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

Lebron carried scrubs to the finals in his third year

You must mean his 4th year. 3rd year they got eliminated in the 2nd round.

4th year they got swept in the Finals by the Spurs.

Larry Hughes, Big Z, Drew Gooden were not "scrubs". But yeah LeBron probably did take some of the worst rosters to the Finals. Of course he never actually won a Championship without 1-2 other All Stars on the roster.

And the East was notoriously weak.

Outside of Z they were closer to scrubs than All-stars

[lessthanjake]

Lebron carried scrubs to the finals in his third year

You must mean his 4th year. 3rd year they got eliminated in the 2nd round.

4th year they got swept in the Finals by the Spurs.

Larry Hughes, Big Z, Drew Gooden were not "scrubs". But yeah LeBron probably did take some of the worst rosters to the Finals. Of course he never actually won a Championship without 1-2 other All Stars on the roster.

And the East was notoriously weak.

Outside of Z they were closer to scrubs than All-stars

That 2007 Cavs team was elite defensively. It was the team with the best rDRTG of any team LeBron has ever played on, and that’s despite the fact that LeBron himself was really not at his defensive peak yet. And, come playoff time, they had the 28th best playoff rDRTG of all time (again, better than any other team LeBron ever played on), and it was the 11th best of any finalist in history. It was also the best rDRTG of any team in those playoffs—even ahead of the Spurs. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cavs had a below-average offense in both regular season (-0.9 rORTG) and the playoffs (an even worse -2.8 rORTG, with a negative rDRTG in every series except the first round).

So it’s just a little interesting to me when people say LeBron “carried scrubs” to the Finals in 2007. It’s very clear that what carried that team was defense. They were an incredibly good defensive team—one of the very best in the league in the regular season and one of the best of all time in the playoffs. And defense is inherently a team effort (and LeBron wasn’t even a super elite individual defender at that point anyways). So it seems to me that that team largely carried itself, by playing incredibly good team defense. And it also seems to me that they weren’t really “scrubs.” Do “scrubs” play historically good defense? No. Of course, it is true that it was a limited roster offensively outside of LeBron, but they also were a bad team offensively in both regular season and playoffs, while the team defense carried them to success. LeBron carried the load for that team offensively, but it’s just weird to say a guy carried a team when the side of the ball he carried the load on was bad and the side of the ball that he didn’t carry the load on was historically good.

[MavsDirk41]

Murray is a 40% guy from 3 the past three seasons. MPJ?

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Denver has a great starting 5 but their bench is horrendous. The bench for the 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers was much much better in comparison this years Denver Nuggers bench. If you want to compare them im all for it….it takes at least a 9 or 10 man rotation to make it through an 82 game season with playoffs

[shi-woo]

It's a team game and I don't think any great big can win a championship without some elite play from the perimeter to set them up.

Could Shaq carry a team alone? No. No one can.

I don't think not being able to carry a team alone should be the measure of greatness.

LeBron had 0 championships until he teamed up with Wade/Bosh. And many here are calling him the Goat. So clearly, not having enough elite support from your teammates shouldn't disqualify you.

Lebron carried scrubs to the finals in his third year

In the worst conference in basketball history. That EC had the dead on their feet Pistons, and....can you even name me another memorable team from that generation before the KD trade?

People will make the argument that the East is trash and the West is a bloodbath giving Vietnam vets flashbacks, but somehow hold someone like Jokic to the standard of 2000's era LeBron or 80's Magic. Not all teams are playing the same competition.

LeBron beat two 500 teams that year to make it to the ECF And beat a DET team that didnt have Ben Wallace, not the amazing 03 or 04 team.

And not to be that guy, but just to put it into perspective, LeBRon also played with another all star and all defensive team player that year who were in their primes, Jokic still has yet to play with either...Relatively speaking that Cavs team was more decorated than this Nuggets team Just different eras so people aren't jumping up and down for Larry Hughes and Zadrunas like they do for guys like Murray and Gordon.

[MrBigShot]

27/15/9 on 63 TS% and people are talking about this guy like he's been a bum. Goes to show you just how good he is.

Fact of the matter is that nothing takes away from what he did last year and if Murray wasn't playing like trash this wouldn't be a conversation.

[Special_Puppy]

Murray is a 40% guy from 3 the past three seasons. MPJ?

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

I mean Jokic won a chip with Murray+MPJ and LeBron's peak is a tier above Jokic's so probably. Would have required a path that's not especially difficult. If Murray is this hobbled though then even Peak LeBron would need a very easy path to win a chip.

[DimesandKnicks]

You must mean his 4th year. 3rd year they got eliminated in the 2nd round.

4th year they got swept in the Finals by the Spurs.

Larry Hughes, Big Z, Drew Gooden were not "scrubs". But yeah LeBron probably did take some of the worst rosters to the Finals. Of course he never actually won a Championship without 1-2 other All Stars on the roster.

And the East was notoriously weak.

Outside of Z they were closer to scrubs than All-stars

That 2007 Cavs team was elite defensively. It was the team with the best rDRTG of any team LeBron has ever played on, and that’s despite the fact that LeBron himself was really not at his defensive peak yet. And, come playoff time, they had the 28th best playoff rDRTG of all time (again, better than any other team LeBron ever played on), and it was the 11th best of any finalist in history. It was also the best rDRTG of any team in those playoffs—even ahead of the Spurs. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cavs had a below-average offense in both regular season (-0.9 rORTG) and the playoffs (an even worse -2.8 rORTG, with a negative rDRTG in every series except the first round).

So it’s just a little interesting to me when people say LeBron “carried scrubs” to the Finals in 2007. It’s very clear that what carried that team was defense. They were an incredibly good defensive team—one of the very best in the league in the regular season and one of the best of all time in the playoffs. And defense is inherently a team effort (and LeBron wasn’t even a super elite individual defender at that point anyways). So it seems to me that that team largely carried itself, by playing incredibly good team defense. And it also seems to me that they weren’t really “scrubs.” Do “scrubs” play historically good defense? No. Of course, it is true that it was a limited roster offensively outside of LeBron, but they also were a bad team offensively in both regular season and playoffs, while the team defense carried them to success. LeBron carried the load for that team offensively, but it’s just weird to say a guy carried a team when the side of the ball he carried the load on was bad and the side of the ball that he didn’t carry the load on was historically good.

Scrubs that played defense*

[JXL]

I really hope the OP is just joking and not being a huge *** disparaging Jokic's accomplishments.

[SelfishPlayer]

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Denver has a great starting 5 but their bench is horrendous. The bench for the 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers was much much better in comparison this years Denver Nuggers bench. If you want to compare them im all for it….it takes at least a 9 or 10 man rotation to make it through an 82 game season with playoffs

GM LeBron does a solid job attracting teammates..

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Denver has a great starting 5 but their bench is horrendous. The bench for the 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers was much much better in comparison this years Denver Nuggers bench. If you want to compare them im all for it….it takes at least a 9 or 10 man rotation to make it through an 82 game season with playoffs

GM LeBron does a solid job attracting teammates..

Yea that move getting Westbrook made him the goat of player GMs…..funny cause when that move was made nobody outside of James, Davis, and Westbrook thought it would work lol - nice job pal

[SelfishPlayer]

Denver has a great starting 5 but their bench is horrendous. The bench for the 2016 Cleveland Cavaliers was much much better in comparison this years Denver Nuggers bench. If you want to compare them im all for it….it takes at least a 9 or 10 man rotation to make it through an 82 game season with playoffs

GM LeBron does a solid job attracting teammates..

Yea that move getting Westbrook made him the goat of player GMs…..funny cause when that move was made nobody outside of James, Davis, and Westbrook thought it would work lol - nice job pal

I think of the Bosh, AD, and Love moves the most...

[MavsDirk41]

GM LeBron does a solid job attracting teammates..

Yea that move getting Westbrook made him the goat of player GMs…..funny cause when that move was made nobody outside of James, Davis, and Westbrook thought it would work lol - nice job pal

I think of the Bosh, AD, and Love moves the most...

Oh yea, when he teamed up with other all star players? So courageous i mean having the strength and fortitude to do that is truly amazing….its so much more efficient to just pick your all star teammates like your playing a pick up game lol

[kartexpert]

while keeping the American competition (Bird, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, etc....) the same.

Next time you try to make this point don’t add two foreign players to the list of “American competition”!

[Pistol_Pete]

OP you’ve been served and ratio’d sir.

25-75

No way in hell the Joker is overrated. You put this guy on any team in the league and at minimum they are a playoff team and with most teams he turns them into contenders. Historically he’s a GIGANTIC playoff performer. In the two games this series, he’s been bad.

[lessthanjake]

Outside of Z they were closer to scrubs than All-stars

That 2007 Cavs team was elite defensively. It was the team with the best rDRTG of any team LeBron has ever played on, and that’s despite the fact that LeBron himself was really not at his defensive peak yet. And, come playoff time, they had the 28th best playoff rDRTG of all time (again, better than any other team LeBron ever played on), and it was the 11th best of any finalist in history. It was also the best rDRTG of any team in those playoffs—even ahead of the Spurs. Meanwhile, the 2007 Cavs had a below-average offense in both regular season (-0.9 rORTG) and the playoffs (an even worse -2.8 rORTG, with a negative rDRTG in every series except the first round).

So it’s just a little interesting to me when people say LeBron “carried scrubs” to the Finals in 2007. It’s very clear that what carried that team was defense. They were an incredibly good defensive team—one of the very best in the league in the regular season and one of the best of all time in the playoffs. And defense is inherently a team effort (and LeBron wasn’t even a super elite individual defender at that point anyways). So it seems to me that that team largely carried itself, by playing incredibly good team defense. And it also seems to me that they weren’t really “scrubs.” Do “scrubs” play historically good defense? No. Of course, it is true that it was a limited roster offensively outside of LeBron, but they also were a bad team offensively in both regular season and playoffs, while the team defense carried them to success. LeBron carried the load for that team offensively, but it’s just weird to say a guy carried a team when the side of the ball he carried the load on was bad and the side of the ball that he didn’t carry the load on was historically good.

Scrubs that played defense*

That’s a really enormous caveat that really makes them not be reasonably classified as scrubs.

[Harry Garris]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

[Jabroni Lames]

Jokic plays in the much more competitive era than MJ, for example. It's much harder to dominate because there's a huge increase in the talent pool of elite and very good international players, that didn't exist back in MJ's time. Plus, the pool of American talent hasn't gone anywhere.

Imagine replacing the trash international players that Jordan had to compete against, with: Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Shai, Embiid, Siakam, Gobert, OG, Brooks, Murray, Markkanen, Porzingis, Sengun, Bogi, etc..., while keeping the American competition (Bird, Hakeem, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, etc....) the same.

MJ would win a hell of a lot less consistently (like every other star today).

Parity is the side effect of today's increase in talent pool. It's pretty straightforward math & logic.

He also plays in an era where there isn’t much top end talent at the C position; conversely, outside of Gobert his run to the finals was independent of any physical/ strong big men or C’s he really had to guard defensively. Imagine Jokic going up against Robinson, Duncan, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, Mourning, Mutombo, Smits.

There’s more top end talent at C than ever before. The old school bully bigs can’t stay on the floor because they need to be able to hedge and recover to the perimeter.

It just goes to show how much more talented Jokic is than the current generation of Cs. He’s nimble enough to stay on a modern spaced out, bulky enough to work in the post, skilled enough to shoot 3s, and otherworldly as a playmaker. MJ got to regularly posterize stiffs like Greg Ostertag and Shawn Bradley.

I was always find it hilarious how some people think that basketball is the only endeavor in the world that is immune to constant evolution. Somehow, everything and everybody got worse since MJ retired.

[Pablo Escobar]

Murray looks like he forgot how to play basketball. Can't put it on Jokic lmao. But I will say he needs to be more aggressive and look to score more.

[jokeboy86]

We’ve been spoiled by Lebron. A decade plus of him being the clear cut best player in the league and you could expect an awesome performance from him every single night, no matter who his teammates were or who his opponent was.

There is no next version of that guy in the league right now, there might not be one again for a long time. Jokic is very good but unlike peak Lebron he has limitations. I just think the expectation for the best player in the league is unrealistically high because we used to have a guy who could dominate 100 times per season without ever wearing down and that’s just a level that only 2 players in nba history have ever reached.

Not to mention that Jokic simply doesn't have the athleticism of Jordan/Lebron to overwhelm the opposition at times. You put Jokic in Giannis's body and we're looking at an automatic top 5 player easy. The likelihood of us seeing that combination of freak athleticism/strength combined with high BBIQ that we saw with Jordan and Lebron is slim.

[jokeboy86]

Murray is a 40% guy from 3 the past three seasons. MPJ?

- Murray and Porter are extremely streaky shooter
- Wade and Bosh were both better defensive players in comparison to Murray and Porter
- even though Murray and Porter are better 3 point shooters in comparison to Bosh and Wade, Bosh and Wade were much better two way players

LeBron won with Kyrie and Kevin Love, he can certainly win a CHIP with Murray and MPJ especially when you look at how LeBron has performed in the playoffs WITHOUT HELP!

Wait, let get me this straight just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you. You're comparing Murray and MPJ to Kyrie and Love? In what realm should Murray or MPJ be mentioned in the same breath as Love or Irving? I understand neither Love or Irving's teams did much when they were the best player but Murray and MPJ aren't close to their talent in my opinion.