NBA All-Defense: Let's talk about it

[Chuck Everett]

In an extremely offensive focused league, these playoffs are still showing that some players play elite defense when they're not called for ticky tack fouls to take them out of the ballgame so "manufactured" stars can get easy points which only adds to their mystique. Now that my bias is out of the way, I'd like to talk about who we think will make the all-Defensive teams. It is also positionless, so feel free to list your teams.

As the board's resident Tony "First-Team All-Defense" fan, I will go first with my picks. I'm not sure how the media is going to vote, but this is what I saw via League Pass.

First Team
C - Rudy Gobert, Minnesota
F - Jaden McDaniels, Minnesota
G - Alex Caruso, Chicago
G/F - Lu Dort, Oklahoma City
G/F - Herb Jones, New Orleans

Second Team
C - Victor Wembanyama, San Antonio
C - Anthony Davis, LA Lakers
PF/C - Bam Adebayo, Miami
G - Jalen Suggs, Orlando
G - Derrick White, Boston

I could've seen Jrue Holiday, Jalen Williams, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander or Chet Holmgren on these teams as well, but not this year. I also believe that Jaren Jackson, Jr., OG Anunoby and Evan Mobley are totally top 5-10 defenders but because injuries, etc... they just didn't have the games played necessary to make the squad. I foresee Derrick Lively II being on this list in the years to come. Vince Williams, Jr. is another guy who had a great year defensively in a breakout year.

Also note, all of my all-league defenders are starters. There are some talented bench defenders, but in this offense-first league, you gotta have an elite defender in your starting lineup.

Who are your picks?

[UcanUwill]

I am very Bill Simmonsy on that I hate they made all nba and all defensive, positionless. And I would still vote by position just because of my values.

I think I am in clear minority that thinks all nba needed to stay the way it was, but I imagine I would be in majority saying at least all defense needed to stay true to positions. Now they really can just vote in 10 bigs...

I would definitely have Suggs and Jones first team, and honestly I would have Wembanyama on first team. I know his team won 20 games, that kid is best defender in the league and I dont care that they lost 20 games straight cause they wanted Sohan to be lead ball handler aka more loterry balls.

[Godymas]

this might be some of the best defensive talent in the history of the league. I can’t remember the last time the stars got true All Defense consideration. Both SGA and Ant are two way guys and won’t make all defense despite having a case.

Chet Holmgren was 2nd in the league in blocks and might not make all defense.

NBA defense seems to be returning and I am 100% for it.

[Bornstellar]

If it's positionless, Wemby is easily 1st team

[NZB2323]

I am very Bill Simmonsy on that I hate they made all nba and all defensive, positionless. And I would still vote by position just because of my values.

I think I am in clear minority that thinks all nba needed to stay the way it was, but I imagine I would be in majority saying at least all defense needed to stay true to positions. Now they really can just vote in 10 bigs...

I would definitely have Suggs and Jones first team, and honestly I would have Wembanyama on first team. I know his team won 20 games, that kid is best defender in the league and I dont care that they lost 20 games straight cause they wanted Sohan to be lead ball handler aka more loterry balls.

I've always hated how the all-NBA team would have 1 center. It can have 0 or 2 point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, or power forwards, but it has to have exactly 1 center. It hurts players like Ewing who finished 4th in MVP voting in 1995 and didn't make an all-NBA team, and helps guys like Andre Drummond, who made an all-NBA team in 2016 because our center crop wasn't that good. Does it make sense that Drummond gets all-NBA from 2016 and Ewing doesn't get it from 1995? It's silly that we couldn't have Hakeem and Robinson on the same team, because they've both had success with another center. (Duncan and Sampson.) Are you telling me that a NBA team in 1995 with Hakeem and Robinson wouldn't succeed? All-NBA from the 60s should have Russell and Wilt on it. They would absolutely be successful together. We can't have Russell and Wilt on a NBA team or Hakeem and Robinson, but we can have Shaq, Duncan, and KG all on the same team? It doesn't make sense. The Timberwolves are having success with 2 centers, but we can't have 2 centers on an all-NBA team.

Furthermore, at least in the time that I've watched basketball, small forward is more similar to shooting guard than power forward. The position that Paul Pierce played is more similar to the position that Kobe Bryant played than the position that Tim Duncan played. Paul Pierce should have been competing with wings for all-NBA, not bigs.

I think all-NBA should be guard, 2 wings, and 2 bigs. But now we're in positionless basketball and salaries are tied to it so I understand. I don't think that all-defensive team should be 10 bigs, but 4 bigs is reasonable.

Russell and Wilt people remember as great, but the player who really gets penalized is Patrick Ewing, who played in the GOAT era of centers in the NBA with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, and Mourning all competing for 3 all-NBA slots. In Bill Simmons's rankings, he had Ewing ranked at 40 and Pippen at 24. Does Pippen having more 1st team selections have anything to do with it? I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

Even if you think Pippen should be ranked ahead of Ewing, should he be ranked 16 spots ahead of him? No, but if you glance at their resumes and see that Pippen has more all-NBA 1st teams, the same number of all-NBA teams, and 6 championships, it makes it easier to come to that conclusion.

[Papi_swav]

I think SGA belongs in there, he lead the league in steals and gets blocks as well. The NBA should probably consider making a 3rd nba all defense team

[UcanUwill]

I am very Bill Simmonsy on that I hate they made all nba and all defensive, positionless. And I would still vote by position just because of my values.

I think I am in clear minority that thinks all nba needed to stay the way it was, but I imagine I would be in majority saying at least all defense needed to stay true to positions. Now they really can just vote in 10 bigs...

I would definitely have Suggs and Jones first team, and honestly I would have Wembanyama on first team. I know his team won 20 games, that kid is best defender in the league and I dont care that they lost 20 games straight cause they wanted Sohan to be lead ball handler aka more loterry balls.

I've always hated how the all-NBA team would have 1 center. It can have 0 or 2 point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, or power forwards, but it has to have exactly 1 center. It hurts players like Ewing who finished 4th in MVP voting in 1995 and didn't make an all-NBA team, and helps guys like Andre Drummond, who made an all-NBA team in 2016 because our center crop wasn't that good. Does it make sense that Drummond gets all-NBA from 2016 and Ewing doesn't get it from 1995? It's silly that we couldn't have Hakeem and Robinson on the same team, because they've both had success with another center. (Duncan and Sampson.) Are you telling me that a NBA team in 1995 with Hakeem and Robinson wouldn't succeed? All-NBA from the 60s should have Russell and Wilt on it. They would absolutely be successful together. We can't have Russell and Wilt on a NBA team or Hakeem and Robinson, but we can have Shaq, Duncan, and KG all on the same team? It doesn't make sense. The Timberwolves are having success with 2 centers, but we can't have 2 centers on an all-NBA team.

Furthermore, at least in the time that I've watched basketball, small forward is more similar to shooting guard than power forward. The position that Paul Pierce played is more similar to the position that Kobe Bryant played than the position that Tim Duncan played. Paul Pierce should have been competing with wings for all-NBA, not bigs.

I think all-NBA should be guard, 2 wings, and 2 bigs. But now we're in positionless basketball and salaries are tied to it so I understand. I don't think that all-defensive team should be 10 bigs, but 4 bigs is reasonable.

Russell and Wilt people remember as great, but the player who really gets penalized is Patrick Ewing, who played in the GOAT era of centers in the NBA with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, and Mourning all competing for 3 all-NBA slots. In Bill Simmons's rankings, he had Ewing ranked at 40 and Pippen at 24. Does Pippen having more 1st team selections have anything to do with it? I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

Even if you think Pippen should be ranked ahead of Ewing, should he be ranked 16 spots ahead of him? No, but if you glance at their resumes and see that Pippen has more all-NBA 1st teams, the same number of all-NBA teams, and 6 championships, it makes it easier to come to that conclusion.

That is compeling point, and I agree that a guard, two wings two bigs sounds reasonable. All in all, I just want structure of some kind as the idea was to get best lineup at least to a point, hense the name - all NBA TEAM. If they made change in a sense of what you think should be the team structure, I wouldn't have a big problem. I just hate that it is entirely positionless now, thats the bad part. I still think team should have one center, but you are correct that two center lineups were in fact a thing. Tim Duncan was absolutely a center anyway, the fact he was always listed as PF is just a scam. People say he started with Rasho and Splitter like that proves he wasnt a center. Dude was a center, and yes, Spurs often opened games with two centers, so touché, your argument absolutely stands.

People have said to me the point is to have 15 best players, but no, that was never the point... until now.

Yes, we always had instances where big star doesnt make it, because most big impact guys occupy their position, or opposite happens when guy makes, because their position was weak. But thats just how always was in sports. I often compare this to these Football all star lineups, where they pick their top 11 players each year. Imagine voting on that positionless. Eh, goal scorers matter the most so just put 11 strikers, put Haaland in goal, we gave no giod goallies anyway, not like its a lineup that will actually play, its a fantasy thing... The idea was never to pick 11 best Footballers, the idea was to award best goalkeeper, best center backs etc. Same was for All NBA. If Deandre Jordan was best center once, good for him, he should be on all nba first team then.

I do not really care about Bill Simmons ranking, but in such list, its a list that basically takes into account all nba careers ever, so 16 spots might seem like a lot, but in reality, the difference between might be very minimal. If we looked at that list. From 23 to 40, I bet we could make a case for any of these players to either be 23rd or 40th.

[dhsilv2]

I think SGA belongs in there, he lead the league in steals and gets blocks as well. The NBA should probably consider making a 3rd nba all defense team

I don't think the media is smart enough to name 15 players who actually play defense.

[cupcakesnake]

I have Rudy, Bam, and Wemby as locks. They should all be first team. Convince me any guard should have a spot over one of them.

But there are some monstrously good perimeter defenders so I have: Herb, Caruso (probably on my first team) and then White, McDaniels and Suggs as locks. That brings me to 8 guys.

For the last 2 spots, I consider: Chet, AD, Dort, Jrue, Hartenstein, Kawhi, Aaron Gordon, KCP, NAW, J-Dub.

Kinda wanna lean big here and go Chet and AD. Thought I have legit doubts on AD in terms of every night impact. He had some stretches this year where he looked like the best defender in the NBA, but other nights where I didn't see the same level of performance. Compared to guys like Bam or Rudy, AD just isn't that consistent. If there is a guard or wing here (Dort?) that's going to take a spot from a big, I think it's AD rather than Chet losing that spot.

Ok so my final picks

First team
Caruso, Herb, Bam, Wemby, Rudy

Second Team
White, Suggs, McDaniels, AD, Chet

[dhsilv2]

I am very Bill Simmonsy on that I hate they made all nba and all defensive, positionless. And I would still vote by position just because of my values.

I think I am in clear minority that thinks all nba needed to stay the way it was, but I imagine I would be in majority saying at least all defense needed to stay true to positions. Now they really can just vote in 10 bigs...

I would definitely have Suggs and Jones first team, and honestly I would have Wembanyama on first team. I know his team won 20 games, that kid is best defender in the league and I dont care that they lost 20 games straight cause they wanted Sohan to be lead ball handler aka more loterry balls.

I've always hated how the all-NBA team would have 1 center. It can have 0 or 2 point guards, shooting guards, small forwards, or power forwards, but it has to have exactly 1 center. It hurts players like Ewing who finished 4th in MVP voting in 1995 and didn't make an all-NBA team, and helps guys like Andre Drummond, who made an all-NBA team in 2016 because our center crop wasn't that good. Does it make sense that Drummond gets all-NBA from 2016 and Ewing doesn't get it from 1995? It's silly that we couldn't have Hakeem and Robinson on the same team, because they've both had success with another center. (Duncan and Sampson.) Are you telling me that a NBA team in 1995 with Hakeem and Robinson wouldn't succeed? All-NBA from the 60s should have Russell and Wilt on it. They would absolutely be successful together. We can't have Russell and Wilt on a NBA team or Hakeem and Robinson, but we can have Shaq, Duncan, and KG all on the same team? It doesn't make sense. The Timberwolves are having success with 2 centers, but we can't have 2 centers on an all-NBA team.

Furthermore, at least in the time that I've watched basketball, small forward is more similar to shooting guard than power forward. The position that Paul Pierce played is more similar to the position that Kobe Bryant played than the position that Tim Duncan played. Paul Pierce should have been competing with wings for all-NBA, not bigs.

I think all-NBA should be guard, 2 wings, and 2 bigs. But now we're in positionless basketball and salaries are tied to it so I understand. I don't think that all-defensive team should be 10 bigs, but 4 bigs is reasonable.

Russell and Wilt people remember as great, but the player who really gets penalized is Patrick Ewing, who played in the GOAT era of centers in the NBA with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Mutumbo, and Mourning all competing for 3 all-NBA slots. In Bill Simmons's rankings, he had Ewing ranked at 40 and Pippen at 24. Does Pippen having more 1st team selections have anything to do with it? I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

Even if you think Pippen should be ranked ahead of Ewing, should he be ranked 16 spots ahead of him? No, but if you glance at their resumes and see that Pippen has more all-NBA 1st teams, the same number of all-NBA teams, and 6 championships, it makes it easier to come to that conclusion.

That is compeling point, and I agree that a guard, two wings two bigs sounds reasonable. All in all, I just want structure of some kind as the idea was to get best lineup at least to a point, hense the name - all NBA TEAM. If they made change in a sense of what you think should be the team structure, I wouldn't have a big problem. I just hate that it is entirely positionless now, thats the bad part. I still think team should have one center, but you are correct that two center lineups were in fact a thing. Tim Duncan was absolutely a center anyway, the fact he was always listed as PF is just a scam. People say he started with Rasho and Splitter like that proves he wasnt a center. Dude was a center, and yes, Spurs often opened games with two centers, so touché, your argument absolutely stands.

People have said to me the point is to have 15 best players, but no, that was never the point... until now.

Yes, we always had instances where big star doesnt make it, because most big impact guys occupy their position, or opposite happens when guy makes, because their position was weak. But thats just how always was in sports. I often compare this to these Football all star lineups, where they pick their top 11 players each year. Imagine voting on that positionless. Eh, goal scorers matter the most so just put 11 strikers, put Haaland in goal, we gave no giod goallies anyway, not like its a lineup that will actually play, its a fantasy thing... The idea was never to pick 11 best Footballers, the idea was to award best goalkeeper, best center backs etc. Same was for All NBA. If Deandre Jordan was best center once, good for him, he should be on all nba first team then.

I do not really care about Bill Simmons ranking, but in such list, its a list that basically takes into account all nba careers ever, so 16 spots might seem like a lot, but in reality, the difference between might be very minimal. If we looked at that list. From 23 to 40, I bet we could make a case for any of these players to either be 23rd or 40th.

I get the idea of building a "team". But I absolutely can build a team, that'll win a title without a point guard or a center by traditional thinking. And that's where things get tough.

[Papi_swav]

I think SGA belongs in there, he lead the league in steals and gets blocks as well. The NBA should probably consider making a 3rd nba all defense team

I don't think the media is smart enough to name 15 players who actually play defense.

good point. I think maybe the coaches and players do tho

[dhsilv2]

I think SGA belongs in there, he lead the league in steals and gets blocks as well. The NBA should probably consider making a 3rd nba all defense team

I don't think the media is smart enough to name 15 players who actually play defense.

good point. I think maybe the coaches and players do tho

Coaches maybe. Players would be even worse than the media. Guys mostly just know who guards them well, which misses that defense isn't just about stopping a guy in iso. Coach would but do they take it serious?

[basketballRob]

I have Rudy, Bam, and Wemby as locks. They should all be first team. Convince me any guard should have a spot over one of them.

But there are some monstrously good perimeter defenders so I have: Herb, Caruso (probably on my first team) and then White, McDaniels and Suggs as locks. That brings me to 8 guys.

For the last 2 spots, I consider: Chet, AD, Dort, Jrue, Hartenstein, Kawhi, Aaron Gordon, KCP, NAW, J-Dub.

Kinda wanna lean big here and go Chet and AD. Thought I have legit doubts on AD in terms of every night impact. He had some stretches this year where he looked like the best defender in the NBA, but other nights where I didn't see the same level of performance. Compared to guys like Bam or Rudy, AD just isn't that consistent. If there is a guard or wing here (Dort?) that's going to take a spot from a big, I think it's AD rather than Chet losing that spot.

Ok so my final picks

First team
Caruso, Herb, Bam, Wemby, Rudy

Second Team
White, Suggs, McDaniels, AD, Chet

Caruso only played 20 minutes in 64 games, so is he eligible?

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[Edrees]

I'd put Anthony Davis first team because he can guard all positions 1-5. I'd have him over Lu Dort or Jaden McDaniels. If he's not playing 2nd option on offense his defense his better than those guys easily. Otherwise great list OP.

[Chuck Everett]

Judging by the DPOY voting, there's a good possibility that Gobert, Wemby, Bam and AD are on the first team. I know it's not an exact science, but before the teams were a positionless, two of these guys might have been left off, which would be pretty crappy.

[DonaldSanders]

Judging by the DPOY voting, there's a good possibility that Gobert, Wemby, Bam and AD are on the first team. I know it's not an exact science, but before the teams were a positionless, two of these guys might have been left off, which would be pretty crappy.

I get where you are coming from but man, I feel like perimeter defense doesn't get its just due because there are no counting stats involved with it (and we know steals ain't it). What we saw last night showed us that the perimeter D is just as important as interior defense. I think without those measurables, we end up underrating the McDaniels/Dort types.

I wish there was a better way to quantify perimeter defense.

[Chuck Everett]

Judging by the DPOY voting, there's a good possibility that Gobert, Wemby, Bam and AD are on the first team. I know it's not an exact science, but before the teams were a positionless, two of these guys might have been left off, which would be pretty crappy.

I get where you are coming from but man, I feel like perimeter defense doesn't get its just due because there are no counting stats involved with it (and we know steals ain't it). What we saw last night showed us that the perimeter D is just as important as interior defense. I think without those measurables, we end up underrating the McDaniels/Dort types.

I wish there was a better way to quantify perimeter defense.

I think one of the issues we have here is that this is a regular season award. Let's be real. During the regular season, perimeter defenders get called for so many whistles that often remove their greatest abilities when defending the league's best scorers. Whereas, when we get to the playoffs we can see their value way more. Herb Jones got called for so many touch fouls (dare I say phantom) against Ja Morant that allowed the Grizz for example that led to two wins for Memphis earlier this season. In the playoffs, I'm not sure those whistles are there. Herb did a great job on Shai in the first round too.

I think Bam and AD's value was in their switchability as well. Hard to run pick and roll against them as they are more than willing to take the ballhandler. I'm sure Wemby will get there moving forward as well.

[Michael Jackson]

I have Rudy, Bam, and Wemby as locks. They should all be first team. Convince me any guard should have a spot over one of them.

But there are some monstrously good perimeter defenders so I have: Herb, Caruso (probably on my first team) and then White, McDaniels and Suggs as locks. That brings me to 8 guys.

For the last 2 spots, I consider: Chet, AD, Dort, Jrue, Hartenstein, Kawhi, Aaron Gordon, KCP, NAW, J-Dub.

Kinda wanna lean big here and go Chet and AD. Thought I have legit doubts on AD in terms of every night impact. He had some stretches this year where he looked like the best defender in the NBA, but other nights where I didn't see the same level of performance. Compared to guys like Bam or Rudy, AD just isn't that consistent. If there is a guard or wing here (Dort?) that's going to take a spot from a big, I think it's AD rather than Chet losing that spot.

Ok so my final picks

First team
Caruso, Herb, Bam, Wemby, Rudy

Second Team
White, Suggs, McDaniels, AD, Chet

Caruso only played 20 minutes in 64 games, so is he eligible?

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He is he kinda played gimpy just to qualify I believe

[DayofMourning]

Would be Bams first 1st team selection.....

[LaLover11]

This award lost it's credibility once Marc Gasol won DPOY without being in the 1st Team all defense