A few questions for ref bashers

[KembaWalker]

Those who think officiating is rigged by the league but that the league either doesn't do it all the time or sometimes fail to obtain the outcome they want in a particular match have devised a hypothesis which is almost unfalsifiable. Whenever an outcome occurs that seems to go against the claim that the league fixes (or tries) results which are commercially favorable, the conspiracy theorists could just claim that wasn't one the league wanted to fix or they tried to fix it and failed.

These theorists have no answer for why the league evidently decided to not even try to fix many results which would have been beneficial to them. For instance the Lakers lost Game 2 in Denver by two points while being -4 in FTAs. Lakers shot no FTAs in the final 3:55 while Denver got three FTAs in that span on foul calls which while correct could easily have been no calls if officiating was rigged.

Crooked refs should have been able to easily gift wrap that game for LAL if the league wanted it. And why wouldn't the league have wanted it? Why would the league possibly not want their most popular franchise with their most famous player to win this pivotal game? Results from the past 25 seasons which contradict the conspiracy theory like Game 2 did are so plentiful that I could list dozens of prominent instances without breaking a sweat. What do the theorists say in return? Nothing.

They just pretend like it's somehow not relevant that there's this huge collection of results which contradict their theory. The NBA must have somehow wanted the LeBron-led Lakers to lose that series because reasons.

so on one side we've got literal referees that were involved in the previous rigging scandal still officiating in the league and on your side we've got "wellll..the Lakers don't win EVERY game so how can you say its rigged??"

yeah that aint passing my smell test lmao

[rand]

Those who think officiating is rigged by the league but that the league either doesn't do it all the time or sometimes fail to obtain the outcome they want in a particular match have devised a hypothesis which is almost unfalsifiable. Whenever an outcome occurs that seems to go against the claim that the league fixes (or tries) results which are commercially favorable, the conspiracy theorists could just claim that wasn't one the league wanted to fix or they tried to fix it and failed.

These theorists have no answer for why the league evidently decided to not even try to fix many results which would have been beneficial to them. For instance the Lakers lost Game 2 in Denver by two points while being -4 in FTAs. Lakers shot no FTAs in the final 3:55 while Denver got three FTAs in that span on foul calls which while correct could easily have been no calls if officiating was rigged.

Crooked refs should have been able to easily gift wrap that game for LAL if the league wanted it. And why wouldn't the league have wanted it? Why would the league possibly not want their most popular franchise with their most famous player to win this pivotal game? Results from the past 25 seasons which contradict the conspiracy theory like Game 2 did are so plentiful that I could list dozens of prominent instances without breaking a sweat. What do the theorists say in return? Nothing.

They just pretend like it's somehow not relevant that there's this huge collection of results which contradict their theory. The NBA must have somehow wanted the LeBron-led Lakers to lose that series because reasons.

so on one side we've got literal referees that were involved in the previous rigging scandal still officiating in the league and on your side we've got "wellll..the Lakers don't win EVERY game so how can you say its rigged??"

yeah that aint passing my smell test lmao

Artless dodge. Try an explanation for why the league didn't want the Lakers to win Game 2. Don't run from contradictions like an intellectual coward.

[Residual-Heat]

Refs have been doing a fine job. People will always complain because they arent perfect. One day AI will replace these refs and people will still find a way to complain about unfair officiating.

[KembaWalker]

Those who think officiating is rigged by the league but that the league either doesn't do it all the time or sometimes fail to obtain the outcome they want in a particular match have devised a hypothesis which is almost unfalsifiable. Whenever an outcome occurs that seems to go against the claim that the league fixes (or tries) results which are commercially favorable, the conspiracy theorists could just claim that wasn't one the league wanted to fix or they tried to fix it and failed.

These theorists have no answer for why the league evidently decided to not even try to fix many results which would have been beneficial to them. For instance the Lakers lost Game 2 in Denver by two points while being -4 in FTAs. Lakers shot no FTAs in the final 3:55 while Denver got three FTAs in that span on foul calls which while correct could easily have been no calls if officiating was rigged.

Crooked refs should have been able to easily gift wrap that game for LAL if the league wanted it. And why wouldn't the league have wanted it? Why would the league possibly not want their most popular franchise with their most famous player to win this pivotal game? Results from the past 25 seasons which contradict the conspiracy theory like Game 2 did are so plentiful that I could list dozens of prominent instances without breaking a sweat. What do the theorists say in return? Nothing.

They just pretend like it's somehow not relevant that there's this huge collection of results which contradict their theory. The NBA must have somehow wanted the LeBron-led Lakers to lose that series because reasons.

so on one side we've got literal referees that were involved in the previous rigging scandal still officiating in the league and on your side we've got "wellll..the Lakers don't win EVERY game so how can you say its rigged??"

yeah that aint passing my smell test lmao

Artless dodge. Try an explanation for why the league didn't want the Lakers to win Game 2. Don't run from contradictions like an intellectual coward.

i dont understand what the point of operating in your hypothetical world when we literally already had a factual incident that has happened involving active referees

[bmurph128]

Refs can't stop the ball from going in the basket so it's impossible for them to rig a game.

And if they were going to sway games, the single most valuable thing they could do for ratings (and remember - TV deals is where the money is here, higher ratings mean more competition from networks which means more money) is consistently favor the worse team so that the game is closer.

Which doesn't happen.

Being an NBA ref is really difficult.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using RealGM mobile app

[rand]

so on one side we've got literal referees that were involved in the previous rigging scandal still officiating in the league and on your side we've got "wellll..the Lakers don't win EVERY game so how can you say its rigged??"

yeah that aint passing my smell test lmao

Artless dodge. Try an explanation for why the league didn't want the Lakers to win Game 2. Don't run from contradictions like an intellectual coward.

i dont understand what the point of operating in your hypothetical world when we literally already had a factual incident that has happened involving active referees

One ref was proven to be rigging games for bookies, not the NBA.

You can't explain why the league didn't even try to make the Lakers win Game 2. It makes no sense in a world where the league supposedly tries to fix profitable outcomes and you know it. I could list dozens of similarly contradictory instances.

[KembaWalker]

Artless dodge. Try an explanation for why the league didn't want the Lakers to win Game 2. Don't run from contradictions like an intellectual coward.

i dont understand what the point of operating in your hypothetical world when we literally already had a factual incident that has happened involving active referees

One ref was proven to be rigging games for bookies, not the NBA.

You can't explain why the league didn't even try to make the Lakers win Game 2. It makes no sense in a world where the league supposedly tries to fix profitable outcomes and you know it. I could list dozens of similarly contradictory instances.

i don't think that many people care whether its the league directing refs, the bookies directing refs, the refs directing bookies, the refs betting on their own etc. the fact is that the NBA got busted and didn't even do the bare minimum to clean house, therefore they don't deserve any benefit of the doubt. theyre either actively involved and encouraging it or not doing enough to fix it, doesn't really matter either way

personally i don't even see why refs would bother trying to rig a game in the way they did Knicks/Pacers. they could easily and undetectably double or triple their salary just betting unders on popular players that get a lot of action and give them a couple BS fouls and not have to go into debt with some sketchy bookie

[stuporman]

Who me?

[rand]

i dont understand what the point of operating in your hypothetical world when we literally already had a factual incident that has happened involving active referees

One ref was proven to be rigging games for bookies, not the NBA.

You can't explain why the league didn't even try to make the Lakers win Game 2. It makes no sense in a world where the league supposedly tries to fix profitable outcomes and you know it. I could list dozens of similarly contradictory instances.

i don't think that many people care whether its the league directing refs, the bookies directing refs, the refs directing bookies, the refs betting on their own etc. the fact is that the NBA got busted and didn't even do the bare minimum to clean house, therefore they don't deserve any benefit of the doubt. theyre either actively involved and encouraging it or not doing enough to fix it, doesn't really matter either way

personally i don't even see why refs would bother trying to rig a game in the way they did Knicks/Pacers. they could easily and undetectably double or triple their salary just betting unders on popular players that get a lot of action and give them a couple BS fouls and not have to go into debt with some sketchy bookie

The NBA didn't get busted, one of their refs did. If you're claiming some individual refs still fix games for 3rd parties, I won't say that's implausible. If you're not claiming the league itself as opposed to rogue officials uses corrupt officiating to try and rig outcomes, then we have no dispute. But you are claiming that, aren't you?

[sp6r=underrated]

Being an NBA ref is really difficult.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using RealGM mobile app

Exactly. A lot of fans watch games from the couch, see plays in super slow motion from perfect angles with an announcer telling them the ref blew the call and think that is what it is like to be on the court.

[Danimals]

1. Do you think game fixing is an active problem in the NBA?

Answer yes if you think it comes from stray officials or the NBA itself.

2. If you answered yes, why do you still watch the NBA given that games are fixed?

3. Do you think the average NBA ref is bad at the job?

4. If you answered yes, what basketball league has better refs than the NBA?

5. What do you consider an acceptable error rate for NBA Referees?

As a frame of reference, the GOAT shooter Steph Curry misses 1 in 11 free throws (9% error)

1. Yes, from stray officials.
2. I think it’s probably very rare, but I just don’t see anyway that there isn’t at least one ref doing it. There is too much money to be made. All of human history tells us that humans will cheat at anything and everything.
3. No
4. I’m sure the NBA has the best refs.
5. I have no idea because there is no data available about refs’ error rates.

My issue is more the culture of NBA reffing. I don’t want any ounce of ref personality injected into the sport. I want clear rules that are called consistently within games, between games, from player to player, and across season to season. I want technology used to improve reffing, both in games and to collect and review data on all refs. It’s the inconsistency that leads to all the drama.

[shi-woo]

I think people are human, and like all of us we make decisions based on power distance and perception as a means of self preservation. For example, if your boss is wrong, most people in this world aren't going to be the ones to point it out. This is where home cooking comes in, who wants 20,000 people screaming at you and threatening you all game?

The same can be said for the fixing game narrative. I think the NBA clearly has certain matchups and players it wants to see do well, people know this, refs know this, and like people the refs also play into this. Or do people really think guys like Sam Hauser foul more than someone like LeBron? One is 100% going to get called differently.

I do think the fix is a thing in some regard. Name me one multi billion dollar global industry that doesn't try and gain a competative advantage, and make as much profit as possible? To have this sanctimonious image of the NBA is crazy, and they certainly impact the games, maybe not in ways that the tin foil hat crew think, but they 100% influence games, how they are called, who refs who, ect ect. It's an entertainment business that pumps millions into marketing of these guys, just like with people like Beyonce and Taylor Swift, they need their stars to look good at all times, and the game is catered to that.

Why do I still watch? Why do people still get into relationships or get married when they know the over whelming majority fail? Same thing, because it's entertaining for a time and bring us joy in that moment.

I won't get into error rates, or statistics, but the NBA refs clearly need to be better and more consistent. The rules as a whole in the sport have become too ambiguous, and that is BECAUSE OF the refs. The example in the game thread I used last night was palming and dbl dribbles. It''s a legit rule that gets violated on every single play. Go watch Luka, Kyrie, Tatum (the worst in the league), and Brunson. They can't dribble the ball without doing it. But it doesn't get called, ever. Until it does, and it's these moments that we need to focus on, not the fix, not the error rate, not anything else

Because the question I ask is, what is going on in that officials head to ignore a call all game, week, month, and year for them to now all of a sudden call it? And during the most important moment of the games no less. It's ridiculous, and there is no excuse for it and honestly no explanation.

There is no explanation on why Dre and Embiid can play like stars in an MMA video game, and nothing happens. That's just them being them, but Sam Meril will get a T for coughing during a FT or something. Guys get called for fouls just for putting a hand out and brushing someone.

If refs want to get together and decide how a game is going to be called, that's fine, make that information public for players and fans alike, and we'll hold you accountable after on how you did. You're going to call the 5th tight because the 3rd was chippy? Come out and announce that. But they don't so the calls will always just come down to how a certain guy or girl who isn't playing the game is feeling in that moment.

[MrBigShot]

I don't think they fix games. I just think they are incompetent and often miss blatantly obvious calls or call things that should not be called in critical moments.

[Laimbeer]

1. Do you think game fixing is an active problem in the NBA?

It's always possible for a rouge ref but the idea the league is involved is laughable

2. If you answered yes, why do you still watch the NBA given that games are fixed?

They aren't now to my knowledge, but as said, one rouge ref is possible

3. Do you think the average NBA ref is bad at the job?

No. It's a zero sum game. All teams are constantly crying all the time.

4. If you answered yes, what basketball league has better refs than the NBA?

n/a

5. What do you consider an acceptable error rate for NBA Referees?

Let's look at it this way - about 75% of challenges are successful. So with first hand involvement teams only make the right call 75% of the time. What can we expect of officials in real time without the luxury of slow motion replays and cherry-picked calls?

[Laimbeer]

the NBA is closer to professional wrestling than an actual competitive sport at this point in its history. legalized gambling isn't helping the credibility perception either.

Can you give us a couple of examples of games that were fixed?

[Dan33185]

the NBA is closer to professional wrestling than an actual competitive sport at this point in its history. legalized gambling isn't helping the credibility perception either.

Why do you watch then?

Same reason people watch wrestling, it's entertainment.

[SNPA]

Lol.

People continue not to get it.

I think it’s the word rigged or fixed. People get caught up on that and the word conspiracy. It’s neither. It’s a corporate culture.

No one is telling them directly to cheat and full on rigging isn’t even possible.

Refs that get it, get better games. Simple as that. It is $. The NBA is a multibillion dollar per year global corporation. It’s about $. That’s not a conspiracy, that’s what grownups know.

Refs can put a thumb on the scale. Hell, they can do so while still making legit calls. This is all proven.

[SNPA]

i dont understand what the point of operating in your hypothetical world when we literally already had a factual incident that has happened involving active referees

One ref was proven to be rigging games for bookies, not the NBA.

You can't explain why the league didn't even try to make the Lakers win Game 2. It makes no sense in a world where the league supposedly tries to fix profitable outcomes and you know it. I could list dozens of similarly contradictory instances.

i don't think that many people care whether its the league directing refs, the bookies directing refs, the refs directing bookies, the refs betting on their own etc. the fact is that the NBA got busted and didn't even do the bare minimum to clean house, therefore they don't deserve any benefit of the doubt. theyre either actively involved and encouraging it or not doing enough to fix it, doesn't really matter either way

personally i don't even see why refs would bother trying to rig a game in the way they did Knicks/Pacers. they could easily and undetectably double or triple their salary just betting unders on popular players that get a lot of action and give them a couple BS fouls and not have to go into debt with some sketchy bookie

Just wait…it will come out.

[Helsbyte]

Someone got paid last night after the NY/Ind game. That was shameful.

[Ducklett]

I blame the refs and the league equally. The league tells them what to call and not call constantly. The real ref problems is consistency. Damn near every game is officiated differently in all aspects. Is this a foul? Do we review this for a flagrant? Pointing to a player on the ground is a T but constantly swinging your hands in disgust at the refs or the too small celebration is totally cool?