Why Rudy Gobert deserved DPOY over Wemby

[FollowTheSound]

Wemby is way better than Gobert, no one is scared of Gobert. Put Wemby in Gobert's place and it's a night and day difference.

[Castle Black]

Wemby is way better than Gobert, no one is scared of Gobert. Put Wemby in Gobert's place and it's a night and day difference.

It’s as simple as this. If you were to switch Wemby and Gobert, Wemby wins this award in a landslide. Wouldn’t have mattered that he was a Rookie, it wouldn’t even have been close. Gobert won it because he was on the best defensive team in the league, surrounded by 3 other players ranked in the top-20 Defensively this season. That cannot be understated. We saw 2 nights ago how dominant defensively the T-Wolves are without Gobert. That speaks volumes. Wemby is a victim of circumstance here, but he’s the better, more impactful defender.

[Castle Black]

Also, everyone saying “Don't worry, Wemby will win plenty of these.” There’s no guarantee of this. I personally think he will if he stays healthy, but that’s a big “if,” especially with guys built like him. You just never know with unforeseen injuries and team’s situations. That’s why I don’t like the idea of screwing guys over just cause of their age or circumstance.

Also, Spurs aren’t going to magically acquire better defensive players overnight. They have one of the worst defensive rosters in the league, so if he didn’t win it this year because the players around him suck defensively, then they’re not going to award it to him next year either, even if he deserves it.

[Bornstellar]

Nah. It's 100% because of record and the media not wanting to crown him in his rookie season.

[FollowTheSound]

For me a DPOY needs to play in a good defensive team, not in a bottom team, I think this should be quite obvious.

DPOY is an individual award, therefore the best individual defender should win the award and this season it was clearly Wembenyama.

[Bergmaniac]

Wemby is way better than Gobert, no one is scared of Gobert.

LOL, I guess I must have imagined the numerous times I've seen players drive, see Gobert coming to help and make an executive decision to shoot a midrange jumper or kick the ball out.

[Castle Black]

Wemby is way better than Gobert, no one is scared of Gobert.

LOL, I guess I must have imagined the numerous times I've seen players drive, see Gobert coming to help and make an executive decision to shoot a midrange jumper or kick the ball out.

That’s every game with Wemby too though. There’s even video compilations of this floating around on social media.

[DwayneSchintzus]

most of us Spurs fans don't care that he won. congrats!

i think Wemby is a better defender, but as they say in France, "c'est la vie!"

Tim Duncan has zero DPOYs...which makes me wonder about the value of these awards.

these are media driven narratives meant to drive "engagement" by arguing, nothing more.

i hope you guys win the the title this year.

[Bergmaniac]

Wemby is way better than Gobert, no one is scared of Gobert.

LOL, I guess I must have imagined the numerous times I've seen players drive, see Gobert coming to help and make an executive decision to shoot a midrange jumper or kick the ball out.

That’s every game with Wemby too though. There’s even video compilations of this floating around in social media.

I never claimed otherwise.

Both Wemby and Gobert are great defenders and acting like Wemby was robbed is pretty absurd. Does Gobert have much better teammates currently - obviously, but that doesn't automatically makes him a worse defender. MOSt DPOY winners over the years have had plenty of help on that end.

Besides, Gobert has proven in previous seasons he can anchor a top defence without much help.

[Texas Chuck]

I think there's actually some pretty good reasons not to give the award to a rookie.

the only issue is rookies aren't capable of this these days. Bill Russell or Tim Duncan being DPOY as a rookie? Sure. Russell was the best defender for sure and Duncan has a strong argument. But I have zero issues in theory with a rookie winning it if they were worthy. But Rudy Gobert is still a superior defender.

People are hyped about Wemby because of the obvious talent and the Marcus Camby I block a lot of shots so I must be a great defender line of thinking.

But he's just not there. And that is okay. We don't have to crown him GOAT today. If he is that guy, we will know soon enough. Lebron wasn't a great player as a rookie despite a bunch of counting stats. But by year 2 there were zero questions he was going to run the league and by year 3 he was maybe already the best player on the planet. That could well be Wemby.

but its okay to ask him to actually do it first, I promise.

[Pattycakes]

We are aware rookies don’t just cakewalk into tier one recognized accomplishments right? Like even if he won it next year, at least it rewards some signs of longevity as well.

[Bornstellar]

I think there's actually some pretty good reasons not to give the award to a rookie.

the only issue is rookies aren't capable of this these days. Bill Russell or Tim Duncan being DPOY as a rookie? Sure. Russell was the best defender for sure and Duncan has a strong argument. But I have zero issues in theory with a rookie winning it if they were worthy. But Rudy Gobert is still a superior defender.

People are hyped about Wemby because of the obvious talent and the Marcus Camby I block a lot of shots so I must be a great defender line of thinking.

But he's just not there. And that is okay. We don't have to crown him GOAT today. If he is that guy, we will know soon enough. Lebron wasn't a great player as a rookie despite a bunch of counting stats. But by year 2 there were zero questions he was going to run the league and by year 3 he was maybe already the best player on the planet. That could well be Wemby.

but its okay to ask him to actually do it first, I promise.

Thinking that the argument for Wemby being DPOY boils down to blocks and comparing him to Marcus Camby is a laughably horrendous take. This isn't about whether he is the GOAT or whatever you're talking about in the last paragraph. This is about the DPOY. And he is already "there." He came in 2nd as a rookie and had his team not sucked terribly he almost certainly would have actually won. Claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender is almost as laughable

The numbers don't lie either and also suggest Wemby is a better/more impactful defender. But go ahead and tell us how Gobert is "superior" on defense. Even the players know Wemby is a better defender

[Castle Black]

Friendly reminder that NBA players themselves agree Wemby should’ve won DPOY. They also voted Gobert as the most overrated player in the league (not hating, just stating the results of the polls).

Read on Twitter

[cupcakesnake]

I think there's actually some pretty good reasons not to give the award to a rookie.

the only issue is rookies aren't capable of this these days. Bill Russell or Tim Duncan being DPOY as a rookie? Sure. Russell was the best defender for sure and Duncan has a strong argument. But I have zero issues in theory with a rookie winning it if they were worthy. But Rudy Gobert is still a superior defender.

People are hyped about Wemby because of the obvious talent and the Marcus Camby I block a lot of shots so I must be a great defender line of thinking.

But he's just not there. And that is okay. We don't have to crown him GOAT today. If he is that guy, we will know soon enough. Lebron wasn't a great player as a rookie despite a bunch of counting stats. But by year 2 there were zero questions he was going to run the league and by year 3 he was maybe already the best player on the planet. That could well be Wemby.

but its okay to ask him to actually do it first, I promise.

Thinking that the argument for Wemby being DPOY boils down to blocks and comparing him to Marcus Camby is a laughably horrendous take. This isn't about whether he is the GOAT or whatever you're talking about in the last paragraph. This is about the DPOY. And he is already "there." He came in 2nd as a rookie and had his team not sucked terribly he almost certainly would have actually won. Claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender is almost as laughable

I watched a ton of Gobert and Wemby with the DPOY question in my mind, particularly in the final third of the season. I'm not the kind of fan that wants/needs the player on my team to win it. I don't care at all about Gobert winning it. He has 3 already and his resume as far as the regular season goes is cemented as the best paint protector of his era.

I think watching defensive footage of both of them, 2 things jump off the screen to me:
1) There is a gap in physical ability. Wemby is obviously longer, but he also has superior balance and hip flexibility. This is why we all feel confident in Wemby having a chance to be the best defender of all-time. This physical tool set has never existed before, and nothing in Wemby's mental game seems like it's going to be an obstacle. He has terrific focus and timing.

2) There is a gap in experience and execution. Wemby still makes mistakes. Gobert...(maybe this sounds a bit insane) basically never makes mistakes. Play after play, Rudy involves himself and makes the right read. You have to watch a hundred clips to find a defensive breakdown that you can properly attribute to Gobert. The opponent runs pick & roll but it's a decoy action to create weakside, Rudy already knew it was coming. Slides over to cut off the initial action, stuns to pivot backside, cancels out the shot attempt from ever happening. Wemby makes mistakes. He overplays certain actions, he gets lost in the sauce. He's so physically talented that sometimes he'd still make a strong contest (hell, even sometimes a block) after a slip up, but there are areas of the game where he's still a bit wet behind the ears. He's a rookie so this isn't criticism, it's just acknowledging and observing the differences in court mapping ability between an 11-year vet and a rookie. It's not controversial at all to say that there is a big difference between Rudy and Wemby in this important aspect of the game.

Now parts of this are exaggerated by one player playing on an excellent defensive team, and the other playing with a bunch of young uncertainties. But I can't really benefit-of-the-doubt all the way into voting for Wemby for DPOY. We didn't really see Wemby in a serious defensive context so he's kind of a hard player to assess for DPOY.

The difference with Tim Duncan and Bill Russell is that they were playing serious basketball on defensive juggernaut contenders from day 1. Wemby is someone we still have to use numbers to imagine what he'd be like on a good defensive team. It's not hard to imagine but it's not what's currently happening.

It reminds me a little of KG in MVP voting in his prime. He finished twice a couple times, but people still had a hard time because his teams were trash. He got 1 okay team and instantly won a near-unanimous MVP despite playing very similar quality basketball. I think things could get very interesting next year if the Spurs aren't a playoff team yet, but the Wemby defense is just getting too ridiculous to deny.

[Capn'O]

It took Wemby a minute to get ramped up this season.

He's the best defender now. Take solace in that.

[Bornstellar]

the only issue is rookies aren't capable of this these days. Bill Russell or Tim Duncan being DPOY as a rookie? Sure. Russell was the best defender for sure and Duncan has a strong argument. But I have zero issues in theory with a rookie winning it if they were worthy. But Rudy Gobert is still a superior defender.

People are hyped about Wemby because of the obvious talent and the Marcus Camby I block a lot of shots so I must be a great defender line of thinking.

But he's just not there. And that is okay. We don't have to crown him GOAT today. If he is that guy, we will know soon enough. Lebron wasn't a great player as a rookie despite a bunch of counting stats. But by year 2 there were zero questions he was going to run the league and by year 3 he was maybe already the best player on the planet. That could well be Wemby.

but its okay to ask him to actually do it first, I promise.

Thinking that the argument for Wemby being DPOY boils down to blocks and comparing him to Marcus Camby is a laughably horrendous take. This isn't about whether he is the GOAT or whatever you're talking about in the last paragraph. This is about the DPOY. And he is already "there." He came in 2nd as a rookie and had his team not sucked terribly he almost certainly would have actually won. Claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender is almost as laughable

I watched a ton of Gobert and Wemby with the DPOY question in my mind, particularly in the final third of the season. I'm not the kind of fan that wants/needs the player on my team to win it. I don't care at all about Gobert winning it. He has 3 already and his resume as far as the regular season goes is cemented as the best paint protector of his era.

I think watching defensive footage of both of them, 2 things jump off the screen to me:
1) There is a gap in physical ability. Wemby is obviously longer, but he also has superior balance and hip flexibility. This is why we all feel confident in Wemby having a chance to be the best defender of all-time. This physical tool set has never existed before, and nothing in Wemby's mental game seems like it's going to be an obstacle. He has terrific focus and timing.

2) There is a gap in experience and execution. Wemby still makes mistakes. Gobert...(maybe this sounds a bit insane) basically never makes mistakes. Play after play, Rudy involves himself and makes the right read. You have to watch a hundred clips to find a defensive breakdown that you can properly attribute to Gobert. The opponent runs pick & roll but it's a decoy action to create weakside, Rudy already knew it was coming. Slides over to cut off the initial action, stuns to pivot backside, cancels out the shot attempt from ever happening. Wemby makes mistakes. He overplays certain actions, he gets lost in the sauce. He's so physically talented that sometimes he'd still make a strong contest (hell, even sometimes a block) after a slip up, but there are areas of the game where he's still a bit wet behind the ears. He's a rookie so this isn't criticism, it's just acknowledging and observing the differences in court mapping ability between an 11-year vet and a rookie. It's not controversial at all to say that there is a big difference between Rudy and Wemby in this important aspect of the game.

Now parts of this are exaggerated by one player playing on an excellent defensive team, and the other playing with a bunch of young uncertainties. But I can't really benefit-of-the-doubt all the way into voting for Wemby for DPOY. We didn't really see Wemby in a serious defensive context so he's kind of a hard player to assess for DPOY.

The difference with Tim Duncan and Bill Russell is that they were playing serious basketball on defensive juggernaut contenders from day 1. Wemby is someone we still have to use numbers to imagine what he'd be like on a good defensive team. It's not hard to imagine but it's not what's currently happening.

It reminds me a little of KG in MVP voting in his prime. He finished twice a couple times, but people still had a hard time because his teams were trash. He got 1 okay team and instantly won a near-unanimous MVP despite playing very similar quality basketball. I think things could get very interesting next year if the Spurs aren't a playoff team yet, but the Wemby defense is just getting too ridiculous to deny.

I appreciate the response. I will say on point number 2 - while Wemby may make more mistakes, he recovers incredibly well (as you pointed out, sometimes he still ends up making the play). But unlike Gobert, he kinda has to overplay certain actions because he does not have the luxury of having any plus defenders around him and has to shoulder the entire load on both ends of the court. Wemby also does an extremely good job of adjusting in game as I have seen plenty of games where he gets faked or out of position and will adjust and not make the same mistake again later in the same game.

If you put the 5 best defenders from Minny besides Gobert or Edwards on the Spurs (McDaniels, Anderson, Conley, NAW, Reid) they would be the best defenders on the team ahead of any player we have now besides Victor. The Spurs team is absolutely horrendous on D outside of Wemby and it's a testament to his impact that they grade as the 4th best defense with him on the court and 2nd to last when he steps off.

Meanwhile, you put Wemby on the Wolves and let him focus only on defense, he is going to completely blow Rudy's impact out of the water. But to me this would be kinda like Tatum winning the MVP simply because he is the best player on the best team, which we all know he is not the MVP this season

I don't have a problem with Gobert winning due to narrative, I get it. But when someone starts claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender and are trying to compare Marcus Camby to Wembanyama, that is where I have a problem

[Crunch 99]

I suspect that Gobert's veteran leadership on defense (along with Conley's assistance that helped legitimize Gobert with the rest of the team after a rocky start) has inspired the rest of his teammates, particularly KAT, to play better defense.

[Texas Chuck]

Meanwhile, you put Wemby on the Wolves and let him focus only on defense, he is going to completely blow Rudy's impact out of the water. But to me this would be kinda like Tatum winning the MVP simply because he is the best player on the best team, which we all know he is not the MVP this season

I don't have a problem with Gobert winning due to narrative, I get it. But when someone starts claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender and are trying to compare Marcus Camby to Wembanyama, that is where I have a problem

You are okay with awarding Wemby the DPOY on what he might do in theory.

That's a much bigger problem than me pointing out that some casual fans have cited his block totals which is why Camby has DPOY that should belong to Duncan.

I think Wemby is an infinitely better defensive prospect than Camby. Do I think he's better than the best defensive player of a generation today? Nope.

I'm never telling anyone not to love their guy. Love him. Hype him. But I'm simply attempting to look at who is playing better defense this season and its Gobert. I'm not interested in what might have been had situations been completely different. The award is about reality not guesswork.

[Bornstellar]

Meanwhile, you put Wemby on the Wolves and let him focus only on defense, he is going to completely blow Rudy's impact out of the water. But to me this would be kinda like Tatum winning the MVP simply because he is the best player on the best team, which we all know he is not the MVP this season

I don't have a problem with Gobert winning due to narrative, I get it. But when someone starts claiming Gobert is a "superior" defender and are trying to compare Marcus Camby to Wembanyama, that is where I have a problem

You are okay with awarding Wemby the DPOY on what he might do in theory.

That's a much bigger problem than me pointing out that some casual fans have cited his block totals which is why Camby has DPOY that should belong to Duncan.

I think Wemby is an infinitely better defensive prospect than Camby. Do I think he's better than the best defensive player of a generation today? Nope.

I'm never telling anyone not to love their guy. Love him. Hype him. But I'm simply attempting to look at who is playing better defense this season and its Gobert. I'm not interested in what might have been had situations been completely different. The award is about reality not guesswork.

What he might do in theory? WTF are you talking about I think he should have been awarded due to him being the single best defensive player last season regardless of his teammates, so not sure what you're going on about there. And guesswork? He is plenty of hard data for you:

Read on Twitter

Nothing to do wih guesswork

[shrink]

I'll keep my argument simple.

1) Played more total games and minutes played.
2) Played more "high-leverage" games and minutes with stakes involved. Less garbage time/facing second units.

DPOY, like MVP and ROY, are accumulative awards, not rate/per-game ones. It's about who was most valuable, not who's the best. How many minutes and games you play matters, and I'm not talking about the 65-game requirement either. You cannot provide value when you're not on the court. At most, you could provide great leadership and culture but the other players are the ones actually playing.

And the advanced one-number metric statistics are all in favor of Rudy. Even EPM if you look at Defensive Estimated Wins (D-EW), which is what we should be doing because it accounts for minutes played. Simply divide D-EPM by EPM and then multiply it with EW. Doing it for the other one-number metrics is pointless because Rudy's per-100 impact was higher while also playing way more minutes.

Here's how the numbers come out:

D-DRIP: Rudy +3.3 (1st) (2587 minutes played); Wemby +2.7 (2nd) (2101 minutes played)
D-LEBRON: +3.28 (1st) (1555 minutes played); Wemby +2.5 (3rd) (1201 minutes played)

Wemby 2024 Defensive Estimated Wins: 7.71 D-EW
Rudy 2024 Defensive Estimated Wins: 8.38 D-EW

And that about lines up with how I feel about the DPOY result. If Wemby didn't have that slow start playing PF for the first quarter of the season he probably would've won. Another 10 games maintaining his play and I would've had him as my DPOY.

Mobley should have won imo. He is unstoppable on defense with his 5 blocks for game average.

I see it now! Your well-researched (except Mobley averaged 1.4 BPG, not even Top Ten) response and impeccable logic thoroughly outclassed FrodoBaggins superficial post!

Thanks so much WentzerWuver for contributing, and helping me see the obvious!