Would Shaq be GOAT if...

[kooldude]

Not in my opinion... if he was committed to being healthy he would have 2X the hardware he has now currently and have a legit claim to being the GOAT.

which years do you think Shaq would have won the other 4 hypothetical titles? He was 22 when the Orlando went to the Finals so I don't think you can ask that much of him then and he did pretty well against the Pistons despite his conditioning.

[tsherkin]

Anything remotely close to a hookshot. Most unstoppable individual move in the game.

In defense of Shaq, the shot he uses on like 70% of his attempts is a hook shot... it's simply not a skyhook, it's a jump hook. This is something he's absolutely outstanding at converting. He does not, contrary to popular belief, dunk everything; Shaq generally has dunked about 25-30% of his shots on his career.

Ball-handling besides a power dribble. I'm not asking him to cross people over at the top of the key. He simply could have acquired some high-post skills.

Shaq's ball-handling has NEVER been a problem; he's been able to coast-to-coast since HS and has evidenced some strong handles; he simply doesn't have the jumper to be a slasher even if he weren't too heavy to do so as well.

Pump-faking/drawing fouls. He gets fouled because he sucks at shooting free throws. Teams will throw stiffs at him simply because they have 6 fouls to burn.

Not true; Shaq's drawn fouls at 0.56 FTA/FGA on his career or so, which is astonishing and it is precisely BECAUSE he is a power player, and a good one, that he has done this. He pump fakes and gets guys on his back all the time; he draws fouls because he's a 60% threat to score any time he touches the ball and because he's so huge you can't help BUT foul him when you contest his shot when he's in that close.

Yours is an incorrect assertion. The Hack-a-Shaq certainly exists but that's not the primary source of the fouls he draws.

Involving the other big man in the offense. Shaq has done an excellent job of finding cutters and assisting little guys, but I have never once seen him throw a lob to his PF. Or set a pick for one. Or anything of that sort.

That's generally because those types of plays are never run and because the Heat don't run lob passes for Haslem because he's a mid-ranged jumpshooter. You never saw the Bulls run oops for Horace Grant either and Haslem is basically Ho Grant minus about 2".

EDIT: Also, Haslem is commonly stationed between 15 and 20 feet from the basket because he's the major guy acting as the on-ball screener for Wade, so he's rarely around the rim and he doesn't roll a lot, he mostly pops to clear the lane for Wade and give him a bail-out pass, so there's really no lob opportunities for Shaq to throw. And who would he have thrown it to in L.A.? Horry, camping out behind the arc? Slava Medvedenko? A.C. Green? Ho Grant? He never really had an athletic 4 to give lob passes to, he usually sent them to Kobe or Penny or Wade because those were the guys that could convert those plays.

I agree in principle that Shaq could have done a lot more in order to establish himself as a true and legit GOAT candidate but most of what you just said was 100% incorrect.

[tsherkin]

-= original quote snipped =-



which years do you think Shaq would have won the other 4 hypothetical titles? He was 22 when the Orlando went to the Finals so I don't think you can ask that much of him then and he did pretty well against the Pistons despite his conditioning.

Orlando/Houston wasn't his fault; that had everything to do with Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson pulling choke jobs.

Shaq put up huge numbers on massively efficient scoring efforts with big-time rebounding and solid defense. He also passed especially well. So yeah, '95 wouldn't have been a title year for him no matter what.

'03, '04, '05? Different stories entirely.

Against the Pistons in '04, if he had a high post game, he could have altered their defense so that they couldn't collapse on Kobe so hard when he drove. As it was, Kobe was driving (bull-headed and stupidly) into triple-teams but if Shaq had a 15-footer, he could have set up on the opposite corner of the foul line line and drilled mid-range Js all day when Kobe stopped and passed out and the Pistons wouldn't have stood a chance against them. Moreover, if Shaq had a skyhook out to 12-15 feet (forget Kareem's range, he'd been using the shot since grade 5), he could have opened things up in similar fashion and in other ways as well.

Plus, the whole Webber/Divac dynamic opens up with the high post hand-offs and the backdoor lobs and all that stuff.

[kooldude]

What about '03? He put some good numbers in that year and actually shot decent from the FT line.

[jaypo]

I understand your points, but I stand by my comments. He had been dominating the league for years, and now, he should have changed his whole game? I mean, Jordan was ridiculously talented, but if he had developed a 40 ft. jumper, he would have been better. That's the same thing you guys are saying about Shaq. Sure, he would have been able to do some other things with a 15 ft. shot or a skyhook, but if you're used to dominating with what got you to the big dance, and other teams have to adjust to try to stop you (more often than not failing miserably), why change? That's where teams and players get in trouble. Instead of sticking with what works, they try to get cute and most of the time it backfires.

[tsherkin]

I understand your points, but I stand by my comments. He had been dominating the league for years, and now, he should have changed his whole game? I mean, Jordan was ridiculously talented, but if he had developed a 40 ft. jumper, he would have been better. That's the same thing you guys are saying about Shaq.

No it isn't; a 40-foot jumper is stupid and outside of the confines of the regular game of basketball; Shaq developing skills that let him change the way defenses play his second star or allow him to play with reduced athleticism would be a vital aspect to challenging defenses in new ways that would have made him even tougher to guard without breaking from the basic nature of his game.

Moreover, it's not about "changing his whole game," which is pointless hyperbole, it's about rounding out his game so he could situationally use these other skills to complement his primary methods of scoring, which would remain the power moves that were so effective.

Sure, he would have been able to do some other things with a 15 ft. shot or a skyhook, but if you're used to dominating with what got you to the big dance, and other teams have to adjust to try to stop you (more often than not failing miserably), why change? That's where teams and players get in trouble. Instead of sticking with what works, they try to get cute and most of the time it backfires.

But you're missing that there are clear limitations to Shaq's game; not just in terms of what he himself can do on the court but how the opposition can guard his teammates. If Shaq was capable of stepping up into the high post and being effective there in the 2004 Finals, Kobe would have received WAY easier looks at the basket and the Lakers probably win that series even despite an injured Malone, a useless Kareem Rush and an inconsistent Fisher.

Again, you're approaching this as if people are saying Shaq should move away from the power game as his primary MO, but that's not it; we're all talking about complementary moves.

Tim Duncan, for example, can and regularly does shoot from about 20 feet from the rim. It's outside the scope of a low-block scorer's traditional game but he does it because it lets him pop off of on-ball screens once in a while instead of rolling, and it gives defenses a different look if he chooses to set up out there in the various ways he does, warping the D so the Spurs can attack along different driving seams, etc.

But he takes fewer than two shots from 15+ feet a game (about 1.87, actually).

You are laboring under the erroneous impression that people here are advocating the use of Shaq away from the low post on a regular and frequent basis; this is the crux of the problem with everything you're saying.

Shaq would still be dominating from 10 feet and in on most of his shots and those would still be the shots for which he was working most often.

Instead, however, of being considerably less effective on the right block (which Shaq RARELY uses) and only making defenses have to design defenses for Shaq on the left block whenever he's in the game, a skyhook would help open up the right block for him. A left-handed jump hook would do the same. The lefty jump hook would actually allow him to play exactly the same way he does now on the left block but from the right block, and changing position would alter the defense and involve different players from his team, giving the D new looks to worry about. The skyhook, even if it's only out to 12 feet, would give him a goto shot as a counter if the defender is able to take away the hop into the paint (or, more likely, if a HELP defender is able to do so).

A 15- to 17-foot jumper (the max range you'd ever want on a jumper from Shaq) would allow him to play the corners of the foul line and even drift up top to set some high screens for the side screen-and-roll play ala Duncan. You wouldn't want him taking much more than one of these shots a game but simply giving him that option would be good for changing the way the defense has to guard him and extra work on a jumper at that range would also help him at the line.

Really though, a 12- to 15-foot J would be sufficient; 17 feet is pushing it a bit and they have Haslem for the side and mid screen plays anyway, so all Shaq really needs is to have a J that he can use to prove that he's a threat to score when he's at the top of the foul line so he can run hand-offs and post screens and stuff.

The point of it all is to give Shaq some extra possessions in the game in places that the defenders don't really know how to guard him and to change the overall look of the team's O so that the D is forced to adjust, instead of the Heat running the same stale plays over and over again because Shaq's so limited.

His refusal to even attempt underhand free throws is a grievous failure on his part in terms of trying to correct his most glaring weakness. Witness him shooting 33.3% from the line last year and 37.4% from the line the year before (in the playoffs).

[Blame Rasho]

What about '03? He put some good numbers in that year and actually shot decent from the FT line.

I was thinking more along the lines when he had 3 other allstars alongside him and got swept in 98. He also would have gotten more than just 1 MVP if he played more than 67 games a year.

[jaypo]

So I guess the fact that for years, dumping the ball into the low post to Shaq, letting him analyze the defense collapsing on him and kicking it out and reposting, allowing either a high % shot for him or opening up a shot for one of his open teammates is pointless? For the years that PJ ran the triangle, that system worked consistently. It lead them to 3 titles and 4 finals appearances in 5 years. In 04, had Kobe decided to play team ball, had they not run into a very hungry Pistons team that was allowed to play defense in a way that lead to rule changes the following summer, the same system would have worked. Shaq actually played very well that series, but GP wasn't allowed to guard Billups without having a foul called on him, and Kobe was being gang raped on the way to the hoop but rarely got the whistle in his favor. That actually lead Mark Cuban to lead a campaign to get the rules changed to protect the perimeter players from contact. So if Shaq would have a 20ft. jumper in his arsenal, I don't think that would have made a difference. Ben Wallace could easily guard out to whatever range Shaq ventured out to. Shaq destroyed Ben in the paint, because that's what he was best at. He dominated the competition in the low post. He is a back to the basket center. We can do all the analysis we want to, argue all we want to, and it doesn't change the fact that he was and never needed to be a Yao Ming type of center. Sure, anyone could have added one thing to their game and made it "better".

And TD, I think he could have played more than 67 games a year if he wasn't allowed to get anal raped every time he touched the ball. I remember being at a Christmas Party at my health club when he was playing for the Magic. He went up for a dunk, and Matt Geiger raked his arms and caught his thumb. He was out for weeks with that injury. I remember thinking to myself that I was surprised that he wasn't injured more often from the abuse he was allowed to take every game because of his size. I can't comment on the toe situation because I think he was wrong to say that he would heal on company time, but when people say he just takes time off for fake injuries, it sounds ridiculous. Name one of the injuries that were not legit. And when he does play through injury, people dog him for his limited production. Getting kneed in the thigh causing a deep tissue contusion is not caused by poor conditioning. Having your knee hyperextended by someone falling on it is not caused by conditioning, and running into a scorer's table while DIVING for a ball (and he's lazy, right?) and having deep tissue contustions from that is not caused by conditioning.

I'm getting off of my soapbox now. It just aggrivates me when people focus on stupid things to degrade one of the greatest players of all time. So what if he wasn't the GOAT. He belongs near the top regardless. And I don't think anyone on the list of possible candidates would disagree. Rick Barry might, but I don't think his name is on that list!

[Blame Rasho]

jaypo you can have your opinion there is nothing wrong with that but he has come into camp out of shape and overweight and that has hindered his ability to be healthy, don't try and sell me otherwise. Also when did I say he take time for fake injuries? Compared to other greats like Kareem, Wilt and just isn't a durable. Kareem and Wilt took just as much punishment from their peers and were consistently healthy. He is an alltime great(easy top 10 in my book) but he should have more than 1 MVP and that is why he isn't near being the GOAT.

[kooldude]

-= original quote snipped =-



I was thinking more along the lines when he had 3 other allstars alongside him and got swept in 98. He also would have gotten more than just 1 MVP if he played more than 67 games a year.

but Shaq was pretty good that series and efficient. His teammates didn't really do much.

cmon, Kobe wasn't an All Star caliber player then...Van Exel didn't have great number either.

[tsherkin]

So I guess the fact that for years, dumping the ball into the low post to Shaq, letting him analyze the defense collapsing on him and kicking it out and reposting, allowing either a high % shot for him or opening up a shot for one of his open teammates is pointless?

Are you purposefully misinterpreting what I am saying or are you just dense?

Let me restate in the same explicit terms that I used before what I meant:

I am NOT saying that Shaq should be consistently going away from the post; I am saying that while he should continue to fight for close position and work for short hooks and dunks, a little versatility would help his game and the game of those around him. That you CONTINUE to misunderstand this is stunning, especially given the clarity of my last post.

Stop using ridiculous hyperbole.

but GP wasn't allowed to guard Billups without having a foul called on him,

No, Payton was just impotent to stay in front of Billups because he was too slow and because he was aggressively hand-checking him, which is illegal.

and Kobe was being gang raped on the way to the hoop but rarely got the whistle in his favor.

This is because he was routinely driving into triple-teams like an idiot and most of the time, NOT actually getting fouled. If you drive into guys with their feet set outside of the restricted zone and their hands straight up, it's a YOU problem if you get thwacked really hard.

So if Shaq would have a 20ft. jumper in his arsenal, I don't think that would have made a difference.

And now you're being especially ridiculous, since I explicitly stated that there was no reason for Shaq to be out there. I'm done with you, you're being intentionally dense and using ridiculous hyperbole, I have no patience for people who aren't willing to be rational.

[jaypo]

What is it with this board? Are you guys a bunch of psuedo intellectual, militant, angry little people? I had trouble on another thread with someone that would not accept my opinions and resorted to personal attacks much like you are, Tsherkin. No, I'm not dense, I'm not purposely misinterpreting what you are saying. I just disagree with you. You sound like an intelligent guy, but obviously you aren't too smart if you question the intelligence of people you know nothing about!

Now, thankfully, on the other thread, we agreed to disagree, shook hands, and kept on discussing. But you seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you is "dense" in your words, or just flat out wrong. Well, my friend, I've watched probably every game that Shaq has played on TV with my own eyes. I've watched his college games, some in person, and I've watched the NBA since Magic and Bird. I'm not speaking about "what ifs". I'm speaking about what I've witnessed. To me, there is nothing more credible than that. I don't care how many stats or statements you feed to me. I'll believe my own eyes before I believe someone that gets his feathers ruffled on a freakin' NBA internet forum.

I've said already that I don't think Shaq is the GOAT. Probably never will be, although he is my favorite player. The GOAT is probably either MJ or Wilt, depending on who you like better!! GOAT is a title based largely on opinion. Greatest what? All around player? Big O averaged a trip dub for a year. Greatest scorer? Wilt averaged 50 pts per year, but Kareem scored the most points. Greatest winner? Russell has 11 rings. Greatest global impact on the game? MJ changed the face of the NBA.

And my statements about the Detroit series are based on the fact that Mark Cuban used all of those "drives into triple teams" as his basis to get the perimeter contact rules changed. They specifically decided that since Kobe was constantly getting hit and bumped that it allowed help defense to collapse on him and hinder his drives to the rack. That is not an opinion, my intelligent friend. That is fact. Look it up.

I think that adding to your game does help. But I also think that maybe Shaq maybe couldn't develop a 15 ft. shot after training so long to be a banger. Maybe his coach never wanted him to do so. Maybe PJ was satisfied with Shaq living within 10 ft. of the basket. Ask Phil about that one. I don't think either one of us are intelligent enough to know the answers to that!!!

I'm not gonna spew all of the personal crap that I went thru with the other guy, but I will say that I would appreciate it if you didn't question my intelligence. I know enough about the game to speak intelligently on the subject. You obviously have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, probably more on the technical side than me. That's cool. But my statements stem from what I've seen over the years, not something that I picked up in a book or PE class. So, I agree that Shaq is not the GOAT, but again, even if he had a 15 ft. shot, or a skyhook, or a 3pt shot in his offensive arsenal, he still doesn't have 11 rings, never averaged 50 pts. p/game, didn't have the dream shake (that's for all of you Akeem fans here, and there are a lot of you), didn't have a pretty finesse game, didn't show hard enough on the pick and roll, etc. But he did lead 6 teams to the finals, holds 4 rings, and 3 finals MVP awards. And BTW- TD is the man, I'd rather have 3 of those than 10 reg. season MVP's.

Again, Jaypo steps off the soapbox. And I ain't mad at ya! I hope you're not "done with me" because your knowledge of the game is unparallelled compared to most on this board. But I just think you should be a little more tolerant of other people's statements. I've agreed with most of the things you've said, but I just see things a little differently. That's all! Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a Mardi Gras parade to prepare for. Pray for me!!