Can it be said that Portland messed up taking Oden now?

[EGame]

Anyway, Durant is better then Oden, but no one can say Portland has messed up yet without at least seeing Oden this year and see what he produces.

Portland is young, but they are build to make the playoffs already. Thunder have alot of potential, and should be in the playoffs soon... but they are still in need of a solid big man

oh and I think Durant is better than Roy right now. I think most of you don't realize just how good Durant is, and how great he can end up being...[/quote]

He is good and he can end up being great (better then Roy and most likely will), but that is the future, this is the present and currently Roy is better then Durant. Roy can still get better to, you know? Or are you one of those in the camp who think "Roy is what he is, he will not improve much?"

[HMFFL]

(We respectfully disagreee sir, I've watched more Oden games than you.

Are you admitting that you're stalking me? I doubt our paths have ever crossed and yet you're replying like we're actually best friends.

You don't know Greg Oden, you don't know about his will to win. I wonder why you would sound so absolute when you don't know the person.

Once again. Are you stalking me?

I've actually spoken with both players. I'm not friends with them (nor do I want to be) or know them personally I enjoyed both conversations. By speaking to them I never came away thinking about who had more heart or passion for the game. I can see that by watching them on the court, reading about them over the years, and Greg's passion has always been questioned.


I guess you already knew that since you know so much about me and yet we've never met.

[BlazerFanDan]

Just the thought of keeping Zbo if they took Durant is enough to know they made the right decision, i don't care what the haters say.

[Ito]

Nah I agree Roy will improve... but I don't think he will ever be a first tier shooting guard (kobe, wade) .... but I believe Durant will be a first tier small foward, right behind Lebron and better than Carmelo

[Tekkenlaw]

It's too early to tell, but if I had to call it one way or the other, I'd say they made a mistake.

[Mumbles]

(We respectfully disagreee sir, I've watched more Oden games than you.

Are you admitting that you're stalking me? I doubt our paths have ever crossed and yet you're replying like we're actually best friends.

You don't know Greg Oden, you don't know about his will to win. I wonder why you would sound so absolute when you don't know the person.

Once again. Are you stalking me?

I've actually spoken with both players. I'm not friends with them (nor do I want to be) or know them personally I enjoyed both conversations. By speaking to them I never came away thinking about who had more heart or passion for the game. I can see that by watching them on the court, reading about them over the years, and Greg's passion has always been questioned.


I guess you already knew that she know me so damn well and yet we've never met.

LOL! Now you're just coming with the lameness, again...I watched dude play up close for two years in high school, and just about every OSU game..i've seen plenty of passion and emotion. Most people who question his passion do not watch him for an extended period of time. You said he had no heart or will to win, and you got called out on it, simple as that. I have to question your basketball eye if you don't think he has a 'will' to win when he has been a big part of his team's successes everywhere he has been. And then you try to sugar coat your comments with..'Oh I'm not knocking the kid though..he has no heart, passion, or the will to win, but i'm not knocking him at all'. lol

The only thing that will keep Greg Oden from not breaking out will be if he can't stay healthy. Not from not pumping his fists or screaming. Not because he chooses not to display outward traits that 'expert's can interpret as 'heart'.

[HMFFL]

Nah I agree Roy will improve... but I don't think he will ever be a first tier shooting guard (kobe, wade) .... but I believe Durant will be a first tier small foward, right behind Lebron and better than Carmelo

Danny Granger also deserves some love.

[Cro_Ruption]

Individual players are parts that make up a TEAM. To take this discussion out of that context, as in only considering whether individual player X is better than player Y, is to ignore the thinking processes of those who have to make draft choices. A TEAM is already in existence, and a player is picked in an attempt to benefit the WHOLE (thus creating more wins).

On championship teams the sum of the parts is generally greater than the individual parts in and of themselves. The 77’ Blazers were a perfect example of that when they played the more talented 76ers in the championship series. Certainly Portland was the better TEAM in that series, even if they did not have the better individual players.

When designing an engine, it is generally not a good practice to unnecessarily duplicate a part at the expense of another necessary part. Two Ricky Rubio’s are not necessary, even a Rubio, a Johnny Flynn, and a Ty Lawson, are not a good idea unless you are going to make some additional moves. Thus we see Minnesota got themselves into some trouble by taking too many point guards. Rubio himself knew this was not a good idea.

Lets look at the old Boston Celtics front line of Bird, McHale, and Parrish. Many consider this to be the best front line ever, with Bird being the best of the three. Would you say a front line with two Birds, or maybe even three Birds would be better? I don’t think so! As great as Larry was, he could not do as good of job in some areas as McHale and Parrish could do, and the team already had the privilege of his skill set when they needed it.

I don’t think Portland’s thinking was so much player vs. player as much as need verses need. If they had a very good center and a very weak small forward, then I think the likelihood of them taking Durant would have gone up considerably. Also, conventional wisdom says, all things being equal, you take the big man.

With all this in mind, I think much of this "debate" is pretty silly. Isn’t this, in the end run, about winning games? And eventually winning championships? And again, doesn’t defense win championships? What about good team play and sharing the ball? To my way of thinking Kevin Durant is going to need to get a lot more help before he gets anywhere close to a championship. From my perspective, Greg Oden is a lot closer to the prize that management had in mind when they chose him. And remember, it is not just about getting there, it is about winning it.

[HMFFL]

LOL! Now you're just coming with the lameness, again...I watched dude play up close for two years in high school, and just about every OSU game..i've seen plenty of passion and emotion. Most people who question his passion do not watch him for an extended period of time. You said he had no heart or will to win, and you got called out on it, simple as that. I have to question your basketball eye if you don't think he has a 'will' to win when he has been a big part of his team's successes everywhere he has been. And then you try to sugar coat your comments with..'Oh I'm not knocking the kid though..he has no heart, passion, or the will to win, but i'm not knocking him at all'. lol

I was comparing his heart and passion for the game to Kevin Durants. That is what this thread is about, right? To me Kevin has more of both. Fairly simple what I'm saying and yet you're making it into more.

Now, I'm not going to credit Greg for the success Portland had this past season, so we'll just have to disagree there.

Like Kevin Pritchard, Greg Oden would be my 1st overall pick. Very difficult to pass on a big as talented as Greg and considering how difficult it is find a true 7 footer. If that is sugar coating for not crediting him with having more heart and passion for the game over Kevin Durant I apologize.

[Mumbles]

LOL! Now you're just coming with the lameness, again...I watched dude play up close for two years in high school, and just about every OSU game..i've seen plenty of passion and emotion. Most people who question his passion do not watch him for an extended period of time. You said he had no heart or will to win, and you got called out on it, simple as that. I have to question your basketball eye if you don't think he has a 'will' to win when he has been a big part of his team's successes everywhere he has been. And then you try to sugar coat your comments with..'Oh I'm not knocking the kid though..he has no heart, passion, or the will to win, but i'm not knocking him at all'. lol

I was comparing his heart and passion for the game to Kevin Durants. That is what this thread is about, right? To me Kevin has more of both. Fairly simple what I'm saying and yet you're making it into more.

Now, I'm not going to credit Greg for the success Portland had this past season, so we'll just have to disagree there.

Like Kevin Pritchard, Greg Oden would be my 1st overall pick. Very difficult to pass on a big as talented as Greg and considering how difficult it is find a true 7 footer. If that is sugar coating for not crediting him with having more heart and passion for the game over Kevin Durant I apologize.

Not really sure why I even bother to write this when you already know what I'm going to say. Are you watch me, huh, are you?

This was your original statement

Kevin Durant has heart and the will to win. Greg Oden lacks both of those and at some point it would be nice to see him have more passion for the game.

Now maybe it is just me, but that reads awful lot like Kevin Durant has heart, and Greg Oden has none. Maybe I should just assume you were attempting to say Durant has more heart than Oden. even though you didn't say it.

[Flash4thewin]

As of today there is no question Portland messed up but when Odom gets healthy we should have a better ideal of how this will play out.

[killacalijatt]

I said it on Draft day

[Bskey]

I was comparing his heart and passion for the game to Kevin Durants. That is what this thread is about, right? To me Kevin has more of both. Fairly simple what I'm saying and yet you're making it into more.

Now, I'm not going to credit Greg for the success Portland had this past season, so we'll just have to disagree there.

Like Kevin Pritchard, Greg Oden would be my 1st overall pick. Very difficult to pass on a big as talented as Greg and considering how difficult it is find a true 7 footer. If that is sugar coating for not crediting him with having more heart and passion for the game over Kevin Durant I apologize.

Greg Oden played a significant part in Portland's rise last year. And please, stop talking about his heart and will to win. He worked incredibly hard to get back to playing, and no one is more disappointed when he has a bad game and the Blazers lose than he is. Same with his injuries. Just because a guy doesn't yell or fist pump doesn't mean he has no passion for the game. If you've payed attention to him this offseason you'd know he's been working out pretty much the entire summer and finally being able to work his legs. He's also said he wants to start dominating, which obviously means he'd like to win. The ignorance about Oden is flat out amazing sometimes.

[DEEP3CL]

Individual players are parts that make up a TEAM. To take this discussion out of that context, as in only considering whether individual player X is better than player Y, is to ignore the thinking processes of those who have to make draft choices. A TEAM is already in existence, and a player is picked in an attempt to benefit the WHOLE (thus creating more wins).

Excellent post, this goes back to the question I asked in this thread. Why draft a guy when you have the position filled in the first place. Again I also said Portland NEEDED a big man in the worst way, again why draft Durant when he doesn't fill your need. People need to realize that some time you have to draft for need rather than drafting the best player available.

Durant is a great player but until his team improves and make the playoffs, he can't be talked about as if he's some super elite franchise changing player. If the Blazers make a dramatic improvement again on top of the improvement they've already made coinciding with Oden staying healthy and contributing, I'm willing to bet he'll receive some praise like guys on this board are bestowing upon Durant.

[Cro_Ruption]

Oden is as elite of a rebounder, and was a very impactful defender before the micro. If he is in shape, he should be again since he had some great (but inconsistent) moments as a rookie.

Durant’s scoring hides his flaws on offense, to me. He is such an outright BAD playmaker, that I think it is directly responsible to his team being better on the court without him, and his team’s overall horrible record. He’s in that grey area where he obviously should be getting the most shots because he is already an amazing scorer, but he doesn’t use that scoring threat to make it easier for others.

To me, scoring is cheap. You won’t find someone as efficient and versatile as Durant I am sure, but Roy isn’t far behind and you can always find scorers. Big man defense and rebounding at an ELITE level, a truly elite level, is rare.

Oden’s defense was up and down, with some great moments and some headscratchers. The rebounding was dominant. His rookie year was more impactful (and on a good team) than Durant’s rookie year, and I don’t think it is a stretch to say that even when Durant leads the league in scoring, Oden’s dominant rebounding and interior presence will flat out mean more even if he’s averaging 30 minutes, 15 points, and 12 rebounds (and averaging that would mean he never really improves his game from here on out, just managed to stay on the floor).

Both players, as young men with worlds left to grow, do some things elite and some things awful. For Durant, it is playmaking and defense that he will likely always be below-average-to-bad at. With Oden, the struggle is to be in good shape and avoid the injury bug. He’ll also never be a Hakeem type on offense, though his sheer size and athleticism should make him the go-to guy for easy dunks.

What Oden does at an elite level is more important than what Durant does at an elite level. To me, anyways.

Maybe Durant becomes a playmaker, but going over old stats from similar wing scorers, it’s sorta a thing everyone comes into the league with and stays consistent on… similar to a guy’s rebounding ability. LMA won’t become a dominant rebounder, and Durant won’t likely become a playmaker on the level of even McGrady or VC, let alone Jordan and Pippen.

And if Durant needs a good PG next to him to take his team anywhere, he flat out isn’t on the same level as the random superstar wing that came before him and plays now.

That’s why I’m annoyed with how OKC has developed him… they aren’t building a true all-round offensive talent. They are building a supreme scorer. If he doesn’t learn how to involve others with his offense (and generally, history doesn’t suggest he will), his team’s improvement will come from other players, not him.

Mortimer

[BlazertheGreek]

Individual players are parts that make up a TEAM. To take this discussion out of that context, as in only considering whether individual player X is better than player Y, is to ignore the thinking processes of those who have to make draft choices. A TEAM is already in existence, and a player is picked in an attempt to benefit the WHOLE (thus creating more wins).

On championship teams the sum of the parts is generally greater than the individual parts in and of themselves. The 77’ Blazers were a perfect example of that when they played the more talented 76ers in the championship series. Certainly Portland was the better TEAM in that series, even if they did not have the better individual players.

When designing an engine, it is generally not a good practice to unnecessarily duplicate a part at the expense of another necessary part. Two Ricky Rubio’s are not necessary, even a Rubio, a Johnny Flynn, and a Ty Lawson, are not a good idea unless you are going to make some additional moves. Thus we see Minnesota got themselves into some trouble by taking too many point guards. Rubio himself knew this was not a good idea.

Lets look at the old Boston Celtics front line of Bird, McHale, and Parrish. Many consider this to be the best front line ever, with Bird being the best of the three. Would you say a front line with two Birds, or maybe even three Birds would be better? I don’t think so! As great as Larry was, he could not do as good of job in some areas as McHale and Parrish could do, and the team already had the privilege of his skill set when they needed it.

I don’t think Portland’s thinking was so much player vs. player as much as need verses need. If they had a very good center and a very weak small forward, then I think the likelihood of them taking Durant would have gone up considerably. Also, conventional wisdom says, all things being equal, you take the big man.

With all this in mind, I think much of this "debate" is pretty silly. Isn’t this, in the end run, about winning games? And eventually winning championships? And again, doesn’t defense win championships? What about good team play and sharing the ball? To my way of thinking Kevin Durant is going to need to get a lot more help before he gets anywhere close to a championship. From my perspective, Greg Oden is a lot closer to the prize that management had in mind when they chose him. And remember, it is not just about getting there, it is about winning it.

Well said. Having Durant next to other scorers such as Roy, Aldridge and Rudy make the team redundant and a purely offensive team. And we know how offense wins championships (please see the Phoenix Suns) The bottom line is the Blazers chose Oden because he fit a part that the team needed. Not only did it add a big man to the mix but it subtracted Z-BO which for all intents and purposes.....was addition by subtraction. Durant maybe the better player but I think Oden will ultimately win more titles.

[BlazertheGreek]

I wanted to mention....anyone who says Durant is a better player than Roy right now I think is mistaken. Roy is a better all around player than Durant. He has a higher Basketball IQ, I would rather have a smarter and maybe not as talented player than just a talented player like Durant.... and not too mention Roy plays better defense too. If I had to pick right now, I would rather have Brandon Roy over Kevin Durant. Who knows I maybe completely way off here.

[jazzfan1971]

Lets wait til this season is over, if he doesn't turn it on this year, I'm ready to call him a bust.

[Buckeye-NBAFan]

I wanted to mention....anyone who says Durant is a better player than Roy right now I think is mistaken. Roy is a better all around player than Durant. He has a higher Basketball IQ, I would rather have a smarter and maybe not as talented player than just a talented player like Durant.... and not too mention Roy plays better defense too. If I had to pick right now, I would rather have Brandon Roy over Kevin Durant. Who knows I maybe completely way off here.

I think Roy was the better player for Durant's first two years in the NBA.

But this year, Durant will clearly be the better player now and for the foreseeable future.

Durant's going to be putting up 28/7/3/1.5/1 or better this year with 8.5+ FT/game, and his shooting efficiency was great last year.

[Cro_Ruption]

I wanted to mention....anyone who says Durant is a better player than Roy right now I think is mistaken. Roy is a better all around player than Durant. He has a higher Basketball IQ, I would rather have a smarter and maybe not as talented player than just a talented player like Durant.... and not too mention Roy plays better defense too. If I had to pick right now, I would rather have Brandon Roy over Kevin Durant. Who knows I maybe completely way off here.

I think Roy was the better player for Durant's first two years in the NBA.

But this year, Durant will clearly be the better player now and for the foreseeable future.

Durant's going to be putting up 28/7/3/1.5/1 or better this year with 8.5+ FT/game, and his shooting efficiency was great last year.

but how many wins will his team get?
idc if Durant puts up 40/15/5, the guys team who wins more games is the better player