Can it be said that Portland messed up taking Oden now?

[quackquack]

Durant is not better than Roy, and what does Lopez have to do with anything?

I apologize, I didn't complete my thoughts.....I was trying to add a comment about the Heat in there, that last year during draft time the need for Miami was a PF/C, and Lopez was the better fit, but the best player avail was Beasley. And, with a top 1-2 pick you always go BPA. It can never hurt to have 2 great players. Of which I went on to say, Portland went with a need instead of BPA with their #1 pick.

And, who said Durant is better than Roy?

EGame was saying "No" to a guy who said "Durant is better than Roy", then you posted "Yes", making it look like you agreed with that sentiment.

Anyways, in regards to the rest of your post, there's a lot of revisionist history going on here. Oden was the consensus BPA, regardless of need, according to the vast majority of journalists/coaches/scouts. Portland was actually in "need" of a small forward just as much as a center at the time, so I don't buy that argument for a second. Now there's tons of people coming out of the woodwork to say that they "always knew" Durant was the right choice.

Personally I think it's too early to answer this question. Just like Oden, Durant was criticized after his rookie season. There's still plenty of time for Oden to turn into a star, and we won't be able to say if Portland "messed up" or not for several years.

[RapsVC15]

BTW did you realize Zachs career PER is 19.3(according to basketball reference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html Durants is only 18.3

Durant's PER as a 19 year old is pretty irrelevant.

Did you know Randolph also posted a higher PER than LeBron in 2003-04? Randolph = GOAT?

Randolph also had a per of 22.8 in 06/07 with Portland, just imagine if Portland kept him

Forget Oden over Durant, why did Pritchard break up the Randolph/Roy duo, what could have been?!?!

[Retrovision]

horford.

[theFRANCHISE]

way too early, the blazers made the playoffs while durant and the thunder haven't really done anything. It will only be consider a bust if Durant becomes the next MJ/KOBE/LBJ type

[thegreatblaze]

Seeing how he's already better than Portland's best player (Roy), yes it can be said that Portland colossally messed up by taking Oden.

No...

Durant pretty much outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season, and this was while teams were geared to stop him and him only. RThe only guy that took any sort of pressure off Durant was Green, and a raw rook in Westbrook.

It isn't Durant's fault that he doesn't have Aldridge, Outlaw, Oden, Fernandez, etc. and an owner with deep pockets backing him up.

*waits for Blazers fans to bring up Roy's amazingly awesome leadership abilities*

What are you talking about? Roy owned Durant statistically last season.

[Brandon-Clyde]

BTW did you realize Zachs career PER is 19.3(according to basketball reference.com http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html Durants is only 18.3

Durant's PER as a 19 year old is pretty irrelevant.

Did you know Randolph also posted a higher PER than LeBron in 2003-04? Randolph = GOAT?

You brought up PER. Actually your comments now support my statement that stats at this point are pretty much useless. What will ultimately matter,as always,are wins,losses and championships. LBJ had 12 more wins as a 19 yr old rookie than Durant while having an arguably worse supporting cast than Durant. Here is an amazing stat. The Thunder/Sonics record with Durant 43-121. A 26.2% win percentage

[Wizenheimer]

Seeing how he's already better than Portland's best player (Roy), yes it can be said that Portland colossally messed up by taking Oden.

No...

Durant pretty much outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season, and this was while teams were geared to stop him and him only. RThe only guy that took any sort of pressure off Durant was Green, and a raw rook in Westbrook.

first of all, I don't think there is any doubt whatsoever that Brandon Roy is more the focus of opposing defenses then Durant. To believe otherwise is simply ignorant of how teams defended the Blazers.

Now, let's examine your rather ridiculous assertion that Durant "outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season":

Per 36, pace-adjusted numbers (roy to durant's pace):

points: Durant 23.3....Roy 23.7
reb: Durant 6.0....Roy 5.0
assists: Durant 2.6....Roy 5.4
turnovers: Durant 2.8....Roy 2.0
steals: Durant 1.2....Roy 1.2
FTAttempts: Durant 6.5....Roy 6.8

the only advantage Durant has is in rebounding. Of course he's a 6'10 forward being compared to a 6'6 guard. You'd hope he'd have a rebounding advantage. But some of Durant's advantage is mitigated by the fact that Roy played with Joel Przybilla and Greg Oden who simply dominated the glass the entire season. portland was the best rebounding team in the NBA because of those two and Aldridge. There weren't a lot of rebounds to go around, especially on the defensive glass.

And the fact is that Roy is a better offensive rebounder then durant. His per36 number was better, 1.4 vs 1.0; and his off reb% was better as well, 4.4 vs 3.0.

shooting:

FG: Durant .476....Roy .480
3pt: Durant .422....Roy .377
FT: Durant .863....Roy .824
TS: Durant .577....Roy .573
eFG: Durant .510....Roy .512

Slight edge to Durant, primarily due to 3 point shooting. But for all the talk about Durant's shooting prowess, the nearly equal TrueShooting and effectiveFG numbers demonstrate fairly equal shooting efficiency for the 2 players.

Once again though, there are some mitigating factors. Roy is asked to create offense for himself. Only 33% of Roy's FG are assisted. One of the lowest percentages in the league. 57% of Durant's FG were assisted. And Roy shot 66% jumpshots to 73% for Durant. This would tend to indicate that Roy took a larger percentage of more difficult shots making his shooting efficiency even more impressive.

other Metrics:

PER: Durant 20.8....Roy 24.0
[u]Player Opponet netPer (as SG): Durant +8.0....Roy +9.4
Player Opponet netPer (as SF):[/u] Durant +11.7....Roy +18.3

DrawFoul%: Durant 13.1....Roy 13.8
PassingRating: Durant 3.7....Roy 8.4
'Hands' Rating: Durant 10.9....Roy 21.6
RolandRating: Durant 1.8....Roy 12.5
+/-: Durant -8.4....Roy +11.4

OffRating: Durant 111....Roy 123
DefRating: Durant 109....Roy 109
WinShares: Durant 8.1....Roy 12.7

Roy basically dusts Durant in about every advanced metric. It's not even close...no contest.

So, your assertion that "Durant outdid Roy in every stat" is basically a bizzaro world view. Kind of opposite of reality.

It isn't Durant's fault that he doesn't have Aldridge

who is repeatedly called "soft" and "overrated" here at RealGM

, Outlaw

called a low IQ chucker repeatedly at RealGM

, Oden,

called a bust repeatedly at RealGM, and many times in this thread. Maybe even you said it here

Fernandez,

who has been called a player with less value then Courtney Lee

It's amazing that Roy was able to will the Blazers to 54 wins, considering he's "not as good" as the wondrous Durant who led OKC to a crushing 23 wins...especially considering how flawed Roy's supporting cast is...according to many posters here, including some offering their love for Durant in this thread.

etc.

are you saying that OKC doesn't have any etc.?

and an owner with deep pockets backing him up.

How many rebounds did Paul Allen get last season?

*waits for Blazers fans to bring up Roy's amazingly awesome leadership abilities*

why would they when you just did?

[Blame Rasho]

There is another thread about the Durant/Roy topic on the players compare board... so quit the whole Durant/Roy ranting on this thread.

[D-31]

His weight should only matter if he wants to move to PF. At SF it won't be a big deal if he's skinny, it's not like SFs are posting him up.

Yep being able to be pushed around on defense wouldn't hurt his defense at all...

What are you trying to prove by continuously insulting the kid with mind numbingly (Please Use More Appropriate Word) comments that make NO sense to begin with?

I make no sense yet all my statements are factual? Look at the numbers they do not lie, see how Durant has a NEGATIVE impact on his team. Name anyone else as "great" as Durant that has put up on/off numbers as bad as Durant's.

[AZ BLAZER]

There is another thread about the Durant/Roy topic on the players compare board... so quit the whole Durant/Roy ranting on this thread.

You are correct that this thread has been off topic. You do realize that way back on Saturday, when this thread was still on page two that the first Durant/Roy comparison was made, right? And also that this thread has been littered with such comparisons throughout the last 16 pages, right? I find it odd that when Wizenheimer finally busts out the advanced stats to end this "Durant pretty much outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season" crap you finally decide to put an end to it. Several mods have been posting in this thread. What happened, did Wizenheimer make too much sense or have you really been gone for three days and the other mods have not been performing their duties? Is it finally time to close this Oden hate fest?

[Blame Rasho]

There is another thread about the Durant/Roy topic on the players compare board... so quit the whole Durant/Roy ranting on this thread.

You are correct that this thread has been off topic. You do realize that way back on Saturday, when this thread was still on page two that the first Durant/Roy comparison was made, right? And also that this thread has been littered with such comparisons throughout the last 16 pages, right? I find it odd that when Wizenheimer finally busts out the advanced stats to end this "Durant pretty much outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season" crap you finally decide to put an end to it. Several mods have been posting in this thread. What happened, did Wizenheimer make too much sense or have you really been gone for three days and the other mods have not been performing their duties? Is it finally time to close this Oden hate fest?

I don't feel the need to give public or private warnings for every little off topic post within any thread. Yet when a topic get clearly derailed that is when it needs to come to an end. If you have problem with an off topic post with a thread, report it. That is what I did within this thread.

There was discussion about Oden and for the most part people expressed their opinion. Just because someone disagrees with your own personal opinion doesn't mean it is a hate fest.

[ilikecb4]

its a bit early to tell

lets see how greg oden does next year

after that we can judge

from the early looks, it looks like durant is a better player

If oden can ever play 30 mpg, average 10 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 bpg, and just be the defensive monster

oden =durant

[AZ BLAZER]

There is another thread about the Durant/Roy topic on the players compare board... so quit the whole Durant/Roy ranting on this thread.

You are correct that this thread has been off topic. You do realize that way back on Saturday, when this thread was still on page two that the first Durant/Roy comparison was made, right? And also that this thread has been littered with such comparisons throughout the last 16 pages, right? I find it odd that when Wizenheimer finally busts out the advanced stats to end this "Durant pretty much outdid Roy in every statistical category across the board last season" crap you finally decide to put an end to it. Several mods have been posting in this thread. What happened, did Wizenheimer make too much sense or have you really been gone for three days and the other mods have not been performing their duties? Is it finally time to close this Oden hate fest?

I don't feel the need to give public or private warnings for every little off topic post within any thread. Yet when a topic get clearly derailed that is when it needs to come to an end. If you have problem with an off topic post with a thread, report it. That is what I did within this thread.

There was discussion about Oden and for the most part people expressed their opinion. Just because someone disagrees with your own personal opinion doesn't mean it is a hate fest.

This thread is filled with far more than little off topic posts. To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous. Of course you are a global mod and do not want to discuss this subject further. As I said, from page two on there has been major debate on the Durant/Roy subject. It has actually been a major theme to this thread, and even debated by other mods. It seemed to me that Wizenheimer's last post went a long way to end that debate, but you seem offended by his post.

The use of stats is a wonderful thing. That is what I and most Blazer fans use in these types of debates becasuse most fans of other teams just throw out a comment like "oden is a bust," or "Oden is made of glass." They are just throwing crap out to get a rise without having any numbers to back up their opinions. It is much like posters that throw random crap out about Bargs being a bust and Raps fans coming out in force with per/36 numbers and pleading for more time before opinions are formed.

So this is not about people disagreeing with my own personal opinion, I rarely do that. Stats and info from press releases/interviews are far better arguments than opinions. That is what Wizenheimer did very effectively.

[Malinhion]

That is what I and most Blazer fans use in these types of debates becasuse most fans of other teams just throw out a comment like "oden is a bust," or "Oden is made of glass." They are just throwing crap out to get a rise without having any numbers to back up their opinions. It is much like posters that throw random crap out about Bargs being a bust and Raps fans coming out in force with per/36 numbers and pleading for more time before opinions are formed.

Blazers fans do a plenty good job getting a rise out of themselves. They don't need any incitement.

For the third time today, do you guys ever get tired of playing the victim?

[Wizenheimer]

That is what I and most Blazer fans use in these types of debates becasuse most fans of other teams just throw out a comment like "oden is a bust," or "Oden is made of glass." They are just throwing crap out to get a rise without having any numbers to back up their opinions. It is much like posters that throw random crap out about Bargs being a bust and Raps fans coming out in force with per/36 numbers and pleading for more time before opinions are formed.

Blazers fans do a plenty good job getting a rise out of themselves. They don't need any incitement.

if that is my goal, there are much better websites for "rises" then RealGM

[AZ BLAZER]

That is what I and most Blazer fans use in these types of debates becasuse most fans of other teams just throw out a comment like "oden is a bust," or "Oden is made of glass." They are just throwing crap out to get a rise without having any numbers to back up their opinions. It is much like posters that throw random crap out about Bargs being a bust and Raps fans coming out in force with per/36 numbers and pleading for more time before opinions are formed.

Blazers fans do a plenty good job getting a rise out of themselves. They don't need any incitement.

For the third time today, do you guys ever get tired of playing the victim?

Not playing the victim. But the truth is, you nor anyone else can provide a statistical argument that Oden is a bust, that he will never be healthy, that he will never improve or that he is in fact made of glass. Furthermore, there is only opinions being thrown around in this thread about it being said that Portland messed up taking Oden. He has played a rookie season that was filled with a couple of small injuries while being out of shape and recovering from a surgery.

The side debate going on here regarding Durant being better than Roy is also not supported by stats of any kind. Wizenheimer's post abundantly proves this. In short, this is a dog on Oden, Roy and Portland thread that is allowed to get to 17-18 pages. If it was a dog on Bargs, Bosh or Toronto thread it would have never made it to four pages. This is a Toronto run site, they set the agendas around here as they have the largest fan base on RealGM.

Another site I visit is dominated by Portland fans. Portland fans argue with the stats with a few exceptions, and of course the opinion posters say that stats are misleading, do not tell the whole story or do not take into account a players intangibles. Lets let the season play out. Lets see if Oden does improve and shows why he was taken over Durant. Lets see if Durant can lead OKC to more than 23 wins. I would say that 35 wins should be their bare minimum goal with the young talent they have along with good bigs like Thomas, Collison and Krstic. Lets see if Durant can close the gap on some of the advanced stats that Roy consistently outperforms him in.

[Malinhion]

That is what I and most Blazer fans use in these types of debates becasuse most fans of other teams just throw out a comment like "oden is a bust," or "Oden is made of glass." They are just throwing crap out to get a rise without having any numbers to back up their opinions. It is much like posters that throw random crap out about Bargs being a bust and Raps fans coming out in force with per/36 numbers and pleading for more time before opinions are formed.

Blazers fans do a plenty good job getting a rise out of themselves. They don't need any incitement.

For the third time today, do you guys ever get tired of playing the victim?

Not playing the victim. But the truth is, you nor anyone else can provide a statistical argument that Oden is a bust, that he will never be healthy, that he will never improve or that he is in fact made of glass. Furthermore, there is only opinions being thrown around in this thread about it being said that Portland messed up taking Oden. He has played a rookie season that was filled with a couple of small injuries while being out of shape and recovering from a surgery.

Why the hell would I try to provide a statistical argument against something I believe?

You guys play the victim in every thread this comes up in. If you're wondering why everyone taunts you guys, its probably due to (1) the way you react, and (2) the fact that you brought it on yourselves with the hype machine.

The side debate going on here regarding Durant being better than Roy is also not supported by stats of any kind. Wizenheimer's post abundantly proves this. In short, this is a dog on Oden, Roy and Portland thread that is allowed to get to 17-18 pages. If it was a dog on Bargs, Bosh or Toronto thread it would have never made it to four pages. This is a Toronto run site, they set the agendas around here as they have the largest fan base on RealGM.

Who cares about Durant and Roy? Obviously Roy was better this past season. There's a huge thread on this over in the PC Board. You guys derailed this topic on the same issue because you have a bone to pick. And I don't care if someone else brought it up...you guys zealously defended it for 16+ pages. I bet there's a lot more Roy/Durant chatter from your fanbase in this thread than there is from any other source.

Another site I visit is dominated by Portland fans. Portland fans argue with the stats with a few exceptions, and of course the opinion posters say that stats are misleading, do not tell the whole story or do not take into account a players intangibles. Lets let the season play out. Lets see if Oden does improve and shows why he was taken over Durant. Lets see if Durant can lead OKC to more than 23 wins. I would say that 35 wins should be their bare minimum goal with the young talent they have along with good bigs like Thomas, Collison and Krstic. Lets see if Durant can close the gap on some of the advanced stats that Roy consistently outperforms him in.

Yes, Blazers fans are the most objective on this site. No member of your fanbase ever makes any argument that is not supported by objectively-studied statistics. You guys have never twisted the numbers in your favor, under any circumstance. It's disgusting how the rest of RealGM tries to turn you into a pariah with categorical denials and baseless bashing of all your players.

[quackquack]

^^ yikes, got some pent up aggression?

Every fanbase has homer/irrational/whatever posters, so i'm not sure what point you're trying to prove.

[Malinhion]

I agree with them, for the most part.

1. Its way too early to judge Oden.
2. Roy is better than Durant.

Getting supremely defensive about it at every occasion is just annoying.

[erekose200]

No, some fan bases are definately bigger homers then others. Note that when Durant is getting criticised Thunder fans don't try to take over.