Dirk Nowitzki is the most underrated Star in the NBA

[Cthulhu]

I guess what my point is, Dirk isn't going to get the love that other big guys get because he couldn't dominate on the glass or defensively when his shots aren't falling.

And in comparison to the dominant wing scorers of his time, he's not as reliable as a true perimeter player.

So he gets stuck somewhere in the middle.

When he retires though, he's going to have one hell of a resume that makes people re-think their perception of him.

WTF are you talking about? The two series' you site as failure, he averaged 12 and 11 RPG. How was he not dominating on the glass?

[BCT]

Not being funny but Dirk is a cream puff.

He's a shooting guard in a PF body.

The biggest issue is that Dirk puts his teammates into bad matchups because he plays out of position most of the game.

At the end of the day 7ft'ers need to dominate the paint. That's the blueprint to Championship basketball. They has never been and never will be some hybrid 7ft'er playing out of position to win a ring.

Call it what you want but Dirk is soft.

[mavfan12]

Mavfan, I'm not going to quote your whole post...but saying "Damp shoots 67% from the floor" kind of hurts your credibility. Obviously when you shoot all dunks you have a high fg%. So does Reggie Evans, does that make him a good offensive player? Get real. Damp is atrocious offensively. He has no post moves, no jumper and can't finish when contested. He's a good defensive player and offensive rebounder, that's it.

Saying "there are a lot of guards shooting worse than 34%" doesn't help your argument. Jet is SUPPOSED to be an elite shooter and a 2nd/3rd option on offense. So no, just because he shoots a higher 3pt% than Antoine Wright, that doesn't make it ok.

Your points have no merit. If the guys who are supposed to score don't score and do so on low %'s, it doesn't really matter if they can allegedly "score 20 on any night" in hypotheticalville.

I'm not sure how that hurts my credibility. There aren't many players that shoot that well, no matter what the type of shots. Am I saying Damp is an offensive force? No, for his role he's a very efficient player and you're acting like no one on the Mavs is capable of dribbling a ball. It hurts your credibility saying Reggie Evans shoots a high % however.

If JET's "supposed" to be an elite shooter I'm guessing you think that he is. Even if he stalls at 34% that's not terrible, and I'd be surprised if he ends up within several percentage points of that.

[Father Time]

Dirk has been one of my favorite players to watch for awhile now. He plays with a lot of fire.

This season he's considered a top 5 MVP candidate, and I think that's about where he belongs. Don't think he's very underrated.

[NO-KG-AI]

I guess what my point is, Dirk isn't going to get the love that other big guys get because he couldn't dominate on the glass or defensively when his shots aren't falling.

And in comparison to the dominant wing scorers of his time, he's not as reliable as a true perimeter player.

So he gets stuck somewhere in the middle.

When he retires though, he's going to have one hell of a resume that makes people re-think their perception of him.

WTF are you talking about? The two series' you site as failure, he averaged 12 and 11 RPG. How was he not dominating on the glass?

Because GS ran multiple SFs at Dirk, and the pace was massive, so he should have mashed them on the offensive glass, force them to either switch line ups, or keep getting easy shots because of his size advantage. 11 rebounds isn't a whole lot when you have a significant size advantage and the pace is wild.

[Cthulhu]

Not being funny but Dirk is a cream puff.

He's a shooting guard in a PF body.

The biggest issue is that Dirk puts his teammates into bad matchups because he plays out of position most of the game.

At the end of the day 7ft'ers need to dominate the paint. That's the blueprint to Championship basketball. They has never been and never will be some hybrid 7ft'er playing out of position to win a ring.

Call it what you want but Dirk is soft.

Not being funny, but I don't think you've ever watched an NBA game is your life. Usually creme puffs aren't routinely in the top 10 in fts made and defensive rebounds. Usually creme puffs don't miss 1 game a year and play through ankle sprains and missing teeth.

When I think of creme puffs I think more of guys who routinely miss games for minor injuries. I'm sure as a Lakers fan you know something about PFs who do that.

[ronnymac2]

I'm not really a fan of jump-shooting bigs, but I think Dirk is a great player. He's having a fantastic year, too. Right now, he's probably a top 7 player. All-time, I'd rank him on the Ewing/Pippen/Drexler level (that's very high...I'm a fan of those players). Around top 30 ever.

I'm not sure if he's underrated. People know how great he is. Whenever those Webber or Mchale comparisons come up, the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of Dirk. People know he's at least a top 40-ish player all-time, and serious posters know he's currently better than Amare/Gasol/Bosh and is elite amongst all players. His "flaws" generally are just relative to the great company he keeps...his defense isn't as good as other bigs like Ewing, KG, Dwight, or Duncan....his offense isn't as good as Kobe's or Lebron's.

I happen to think he played well in the finals. The 07 series was THE bad series. At least he wasn't destroyed 1 vs. 1 by his matchup on the other team, but he was stopped. That reveals an actual flaw of his....he can't decimate smaller defenders with a post game. Alright, fine. You need certain personnel to give him that matchup though. The W's happened to have it. All that means is that Dirk isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like only a handful of players are in history....the most recent ones being Shaq and Tim Duncan. Maybe add Wade, Lebron, and Kobe. Again, he only suffers by comparison.

[Cthulhu]

I'm not really a fan of jump-shooting bigs, but I think Dirk is a great player. He's having a fantastic year, too. Right now, he's probably a top 7 player. All-time, I'd rank him on the Ewing/Pippen/Drexler level (that's very high...I'm a fan of those players). Around top 30 ever.

I'm not sure if he's underrated. People know how great he is. Whenever those Webber or Mchale comparisons come up, the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of Dirk. People know he's at least a top 40-ish player all-time, and serious posters know he's currently better than Amare/Gasol/Bosh and is elite amongst all players. His "flaws" generally are just relative to the great company he keeps...his defense isn't as good as other bigs like Ewing, KG, Dwight, or Duncan....his offense isn't as good as Kobe's or Lebron's.

I happen to think he played well in the finals. The 07 series was THE bad series. At least he wasn't destroyed 1 vs. 1 by his matchup on the other team, but he was stopped. That reveals an actual flaw of his....he can't decimate smaller defenders with a post game. Alright, fine. You need certain personnel to give him that matchup though. The W's happened to have it. All that means is that Dirk isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like only a handful of players are in history....the most recent ones being Shaq and Tim Duncan. Maybe add Wade, Lebron, and Kobe. Again, he only suffers by comparison.

A couple of things though:

Like I said (maybe it wasn't it this thread, I forget), LeBron was AWFUL in the finals. Worse than Dirk vs. GS, easily. So obviously he isn't a constant source of offensive domination in the playoffs. Wade was rather ineffective in their first round loss to the Bulls a couple years ago. Kobe has had a couple of bad series too. I'm not going to look them up atm, but I'm sure TD and Shaq have as well,. The fact is, NO player is a constant source of domination in the playoffs, including the ones you listed. But as far as career playoff wise, Dirk has been one of THE best playoff performers in NBA history. Like another guy said, that Finals starting 5 was:
Damp, Dirk, Howard, Griffin, Terry. That is an absurdly mediocre lineup. It's a true testament to how good Dirk is to have done that. Griffin was out of the NBA like 2 years later!

As for the defending him with a small guy. In the GS series, Dirk's post game was not as refined, that's true. Though it was still moreso the double teams and swarming defense coupled with his teammates not hitting open shots that led to the loss. But since then, his post game has refined a ton. He will abuse smaller guys in the low post now, so you can't even defend him that way. Every match-up vs. SJax since, he's scored at will on them (36 against the Bobcats most recently). The only thing is, the Mavs make it easy to double Dirk when you've got guys like Antonie Wright & Jerry Stackhouse to Josh Howard and Jet Terry (this year) camping behind the 3-point line. He simply doesn't have players around him that make you pay for double teams. As far as scoring on the low-block though, that's no issue. Most of his 32 PPG in the Denver playoff series last year were on the low-block in fact.

[John Doe [MIN]]

The Mavericks give up FOURTEEN (14) more points per 100 possessions with Dirk on the bench. Do you realize how absurd that is? For point of reference,

with no Dirk: -14
with no LeBron: -7
no Kobe: -8
no D12: -6
no CP3: -8
no Bosh: -4
no Melo: +3
no Roy: +4
no Duncan +7

Apparently I'm the only who noticed this. The Spurs' defense gives up 7 fewer points per 100 possessions when Duncan is out of the game? Can that be right???

[Master_]

nowitzki is a consistent/unique player and has a big impact, great efficiency. he must be in the mvp discussion (top 3) but it is very hard to beat lebron.

[NO-KG-AI]

I'm not really a fan of jump-shooting bigs, but I think Dirk is a great player. He's having a fantastic year, too. Right now, he's probably a top 7 player. All-time, I'd rank him on the Ewing/Pippen/Drexler level (that's very high...I'm a fan of those players). Around top 30 ever.

I'm not sure if he's underrated. People know how great he is. Whenever those Webber or Mchale comparisons come up, the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of Dirk. People know he's at least a top 40-ish player all-time, and serious posters know he's currently better than Amare/Gasol/Bosh and is elite amongst all players. His "flaws" generally are just relative to the great company he keeps...his defense isn't as good as other bigs like Ewing, KG, Dwight, or Duncan....his offense isn't as good as Kobe's or Lebron's.

I happen to think he played well in the finals. The 07 series was THE bad series. At least he wasn't destroyed 1 vs. 1 by his matchup on the other team, but he was stopped. That reveals an actual flaw of his....he can't decimate smaller defenders with a post game. Alright, fine. You need certain personnel to give him that matchup though. The W's happened to have it. All that means is that Dirk isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like only a handful of players are in history....the most recent ones being Shaq and Tim Duncan. Maybe add Wade, Lebron, and Kobe. Again, he only suffers by comparison.

A couple of things though:

Like I said (maybe it wasn't it this thread, I forget), LeBron was AWFUL in the finals. Worse than Dirk vs. GS, easily. So obviously he isn't a constant source of offensive domination in the playoffs. Wade was rather ineffective in their first round loss to the Bulls a couple years ago. Kobe has had a couple of bad series too. I'm not going to look them up atm, but I'm sure TD and Shaq have as well,. The fact is, NO player is a constant source of domination in the playoffs, including the ones you listed. But as far as career playoff wise, Dirk has been one of THE best playoff performers in NBA history. Like another guy said, that Finals starting 5 was:
Damp, Dirk, Howard, Griffin, Terry. That is an absurdly mediocre lineup. It's a true testament to how good Dirk is to have done that. Griffin was out of the NBA like 2 years later!

As for the defending him with a small guy. In the GS series, Dirk's post game was not as refined, that's true. Though it was still moreso the double teams and swarming defense coupled with his teammates not hitting open shots that led to the loss. But since then, his post game has refined a ton. He will abuse smaller guys in the low post now, so you can't even defend him that way. Every match-up vs. SJax since, he's scored at will on them (36 against the Bobcats most recently). The only thing is, the Mavs make it easy to double Dirk when you've got guys like Antonie Wright & Jerry Stackhouse to Josh Howard and Jet Terry (this year) camping behind the 3-point line. He simply doesn't have players around him that make you pay for double teams. As far as scoring on the low-block though, that's no issue. Most of his 32 PPG in the Denver playoff series last year were on the low-block in fact.

Come on man, LeBron and his underwhelming team against the champion Spurs and their vaunted defense is not comparable to Dirk losing with his 67 win team against the Warriors while being guarded by guys 5 inches smaller than him.

The Warriors were a bad defense then, and have been a bad defense since, nothing comparable to being guarded like LeBron was.

[prekazi]

He's rated just fine.

[BmanInBigD]

I'm not really a fan of jump-shooting bigs, but I think Dirk is a great player. He's having a fantastic year, too. Right now, he's probably a top 7 player. All-time, I'd rank him on the Ewing/Pippen/Drexler level (that's very high...I'm a fan of those players). Around top 30 ever.

I'm not sure if he's underrated. People know how great he is. Whenever those Webber or Mchale comparisons come up, the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of Dirk. People know he's at least a top 40-ish player all-time, and serious posters know he's currently better than Amare/Gasol/Bosh and is elite amongst all players. His "flaws" generally are just relative to the great company he keeps...his defense isn't as good as other bigs like Ewing, KG, Dwight, or Duncan....his offense isn't as good as Kobe's or Lebron's.

I happen to think he played well in the finals. The 07 series was THE bad series. At least he wasn't destroyed 1 vs. 1 by his matchup on the other team, but he was stopped. That reveals an actual flaw of his....he can't decimate smaller defenders with a post game. Alright, fine. You need certain personnel to give him that matchup though. The W's happened to have it. All that means is that Dirk isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like only a handful of players are in history....the most recent ones being Shaq and Tim Duncan. Maybe add Wade, Lebron, and Kobe. Again, he only suffers by comparison.

A couple of things though:

Like I said (maybe it wasn't it this thread, I forget), LeBron was AWFUL in the finals. Worse than Dirk vs. GS, easily. So obviously he isn't a constant source of offensive domination in the playoffs. Wade was rather ineffective in their first round loss to the Bulls a couple years ago. Kobe has had a couple of bad series too. I'm not going to look them up atm, but I'm sure TD and Shaq have as well,. The fact is, NO player is a constant source of domination in the playoffs, including the ones you listed. But as far as career playoff wise, Dirk has been one of THE best playoff performers in NBA history. Like another guy said, that Finals starting 5 was:
Damp, Dirk, Howard, Griffin, Terry. That is an absurdly mediocre lineup. It's a true testament to how good Dirk is to have done that. Griffin was out of the NBA like 2 years later!

As for the defending him with a small guy. In the GS series, Dirk's post game was not as refined, that's true. Though it was still moreso the double teams and swarming defense coupled with his teammates not hitting open shots that led to the loss. But since then, his post game has refined a ton. He will abuse smaller guys in the low post now, so you can't even defend him that way. Every match-up vs. SJax since, he's scored at will on them (36 against the Bobcats most recently). The only thing is, the Mavs make it easy to double Dirk when you've got guys like Antonie Wright & Jerry Stackhouse to Josh Howard and Jet Terry (this year) camping behind the 3-point line. He simply doesn't have players around him that make you pay for double teams. As far as scoring on the low-block though, that's no issue. Most of his 32 PPG in the Denver playoff series last year were on the low-block in fact.

Come on man, LeBron and his underwhelming team against the champion Spurs and their vaunted defense is not comparable to Dirk losing with his 67 win team against the Warriors while being guarded by guys 5 inches smaller than him.

The Warriors were a bad defense then, and have been a bad defense since, nothing comparable to being guarded like LeBron was.

Your point makes a lot of sense on the surface. But I can argue that Nellie designed a defense for that series that was as stifling to Dirk as any team could have. He was hell-bent on stopping Dirk and making a point to Cuban (they were in a major legal dispute at the time). He used his genius, which is usually reserved for offense, on defense in that series. Usually he doesn't care to coach defense. If anyone thinks that was REALLY a number 8 seed and that they didn't play good defense with a bunch of athletic guys in that series, well then you need to pay more attention to games and less to these forums and knee-jerkers who opine on them.

[odb 7777]

I'm not really a fan of jump-shooting bigs, but I think Dirk is a great player. He's having a fantastic year, too. Right now, he's probably a top 7 player. All-time, I'd rank him on the Ewing/Pippen/Drexler level (that's very high...I'm a fan of those players). Around top 30 ever.

I'm not sure if he's underrated. People know how great he is. Whenever those Webber or Mchale comparisons come up, the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of Dirk. People know he's at least a top 40-ish player all-time, and serious posters know he's currently better than Amare/Gasol/Bosh and is elite amongst all players. His "flaws" generally are just relative to the great company he keeps...his defense isn't as good as other bigs like Ewing, KG, Dwight, or Duncan....his offense isn't as good as Kobe's or Lebron's.

I happen to think he played well in the finals. The 07 series was THE bad series. At least he wasn't destroyed 1 vs. 1 by his matchup on the other team, but he was stopped. That reveals an actual flaw of his....he can't decimate smaller defenders with a post game. Alright, fine. You need certain personnel to give him that matchup though. The W's happened to have it. All that means is that Dirk isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like only a handful of players are in history....the most recent ones being Shaq and Tim Duncan. Maybe add Wade, Lebron, and Kobe. Again, he only suffers by comparison.

Let`s see: Playoffs career states :

Duncan: 23,3/12,6
Nowitzki: 25,5/11
Garnett: 21,6/12,4
Kobe: 25,0/5,1 (on 44,7% shooting)

Or last years against Denver:

Dirk had 34,7/12 on 52% shooting.
Kobe had 34,0 points on 48% shooting.

Sure, Nowitzki isn't a constant source of dominant offense in the playoffs like Duncan or Kobe. He only suffers by comparison.

[Blame Rasho]

Yes we get it... everyone doesn't like Dirk as much as you. I know it is shocking in your mind but perhaps there is a reason for that. In the biggest stages he has failed epically. You can sugarcoat it as much as you want but I am pretty sure that TD, KG, Kobe, Lebron and etc would get hanged on the cross if they lead their team to by far the best record in the NBA, win an MVP and then lose in the first round after reaching the finals. You need to deal with this and stop sugarcoating reality.

[IllinoisReppa20]

because the idea of a tall white german guy as the face of our league would drop tv ratings in Israel .. but seriously i agree he doesnt consistently get mentioned in the elite players which he should

[BCT]

Not being funny but Dirk is a cream puff.

He's a shooting guard in a PF body.

The biggest issue is that Dirk puts his teammates into bad matchups because he plays out of position most of the game.

At the end of the day 7ft'ers need to dominate the paint. That's the blueprint to Championship basketball. They has never been and never will be some hybrid 7ft'er playing out of position to win a ring.

Call it what you want but Dirk is soft.

Not being funny, but I don't think you've ever watched an NBA game is your life. Usually creme puffs aren't routinely in the top 10 in fts made and defensive rebounds. Usually creme puffs don't miss 1 game a year and play through ankle sprains and missing teeth.

When I think of creme puffs I think more of guys who routinely miss games for minor injuries. I'm sure as a Lakers fan you know something about PFs who do that.

Man please...

Dirk is a failure and soft.

He let Udonis Haslem take a Championship from him. I don't want to hear anymore about it.

Dirk plays out of position and doesn't make plays for his teammates.

Dirk is soft.

Say what you want but Pau has a NBA Championship and has led his country to multiple world titles.

Seriously what the hell has Dirk ever done?

Get this (Please Use More Appropriate Word) crap out of here!

[Blame Rasho]

I also don't get the underrated tag... he is most likely going to be an all NBA 1st teamer do you want him to be in the same breath as other players? You need to actually accomplish things like Duncan, Kobe, and etc to be in the same tier as them. The reasoning that he doesn't have talented teammates in laughable given that over the past 10 years he might have had the most collective talent out of all the superstars in the NBA.

[Wilford Brimley]

I also don't get the underrated tag... he is most likely going to be an all NBA 1st teamer do you want him to be in the same breath as other players? You need to actually accomplish things like Duncan, Kobe, and etc to be in the same tier as them. The reasoning that he doesn't have talented teammates in laughable given that over the past 10 years he might have had the most collective talent out of all the superstars in the NBA.

[Howler21]

Not being funny but Dirk is a cream puff.

He's a shooting guard in a PF body.

The biggest issue is that Dirk puts his teammates into bad matchups because he plays out of position most of the game.

At the end of the day 7ft'ers need to dominate the paint. That's the blueprint to Championship basketball. They has never been and never will be some hybrid 7ft'er playing out of position to win a ring.

Call it what you want but Dirk is soft.

Not being funny, but I don't think you've ever watched an NBA game is your life. Usually creme puffs aren't routinely in the top 10 in fts made and defensive rebounds. Usually creme puffs don't miss 1 game a year and play through ankle sprains and missing teeth.

When I think of creme puffs I think more of guys who routinely miss games for minor injuries. I'm sure as a Lakers fan you know something about PFs who do that.

Man please...

Dirk is a failure and soft.

He let Udonis Haslem take a Championship from him. I don't want to hear anymore about it.

Dirk plays out of position and doesn't make plays for his teammates.

Dirk is soft.

Say what you want but Pau has a NBA Championship and has led his country to multiple world titles.

Seriously what the hell has Dirk ever done?

Get this (Please Use More Appropriate Word) crap out of here!

you really want to make the arguement that pau is the better of the two?