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I'm so fed up with how underrated he is here. People make comparison threads with him to Webber and McHale. Some people don't acknowledge him as a franchise player. Some idiots try to argue Bosh/Pau are better than him. It's a f'ing travesty.

Dallas is SECOND in the West. That's unreal. I don't think people realize how OFFENSIVELY INEPT this Mavs team is outside of Dirk. Lets look at his help:

Josh Howard: This guy is supposed to be his second fiddle. He is averaging 13 PPG on 40% shooting from the field and 27% from the three point line. I repeat, his second fiddle: 13 PPG on 40/27 shooting. All he does these days is shoot jumpers...and isn't a good shooter. Sad thing is, he's the only guy besides Dirk who can CREATE HIS OWN SHOT.

Damp: He's been good on D, but offensively...enough said.

Marion: Again, his defense has been great. On offense, he's a joke. He's shooting only 48% when almost all his shots are within 10 feet. Guy is putting up 12 PPG. I like Marion, but if it's not a point blank lay-up, he misses. Can't create. When he tries to do something he throws up a weak ten foot floater. Anti-Jamison style.

Kidd: Kidd cannot score unless it's a WIDE open three pointer. Can't create AT ALL for himself. Putting up a whopping 9 PPG on 42% shooting. Yes, his 3point % is solid, but only because they are all WIDE open.

6th man JET Terry: He's always been a streaky, poor man's Mo Williams, but this year age has really caught up with him. Now he's a rich man's Damon Jones. He'll get hot about once a week and that's it. Completely streaky, can't create for himself, and rarely hits good looks on threes these days. Guy is down to 43% from the field and 34% from three. 34% from three, for a 3-point specialist.

Dirk's 2nd and 3rd fiddle are putting up 16 and 13 PPG on 43% and 40% shooting, 34% and 27% from down town. Those are his second two options. Tell me ONE other star who has it that bad? ONE. Only debatable guy is LeBron, but for him I'd still make Mo Williams over Howard AND Terry.

Artest, Odom, Pau, Bynum
KG, Pierce, Allen
Billups, Smith
Manu, Parker
Mo Williams
Carter, Shard
Amare, Grant Hill

EVERY SINGLE one of those guys would be the #2 option on the Dallas Mavericks.

Dirk has a +22.5 Net.

The Mavericks give up FOURTEEN (14) more points per 100 possessions with Dirk on the bench. Do you realize how absurd that is? For point of reference,

with no Dirk: -14
with no LeBron: -7
no Kobe: -8
no D12: -6
no CP3: -8
no Bosh: -4
no Melo: +3
no Roy: +4
no Duncan +7

The Mavs are SIX points worse than ANY other star (Kobe in 2nd). That's unreal.

Yet the Mavericks are still 2nd in the West.

So you think about all this next time when you post in the "franchise player" thread, or make a "Bosh v. Dirk" comparison.

Oh, and he's scoring 48 points per 48 minutes in the clutch and missed only ONE 4th quarter/OT ft all year. Same old, same old.

Great post

Dirk should really be the leading MVP candidate with Lebron at this point

We've grown accustomed to his play. It's pretty much a shame.

The only complaint I have abut Dirk is how his fans always try to belittle his teammates and act like he has no help, when in reality he has been privileged to always play with super talented teams.

i think dirk will finish 2nd in mvp.

i dunno about underrated. i think he certainly commands the respect of everybody.

pau is relevant coz he plays with the lakers. i'm pretty sure that nobody says that bosh is better than dirk. mavs have always had a much better record than the raps.

Sting3r wrote:The only complaint I have abut Dirk is how his fans always try to belittle his teammates and act like he has no help, when in reality he has been privileged to always play with super talented teams.

I'm sorry, please enlighten me how his current team is "super talented". Is Josh "50 games and 40% a year" super talented? Jet stroking it from deep at 34%, is that super talented? His best teammate is Kidd...and even Kiddo is offensively inept these days.

Good thread...

Sting3r wrote:The only complaint I have abut Dirk is how his fans always try to belittle his teammates and act like he has no help, when in reality he has been privileged to always play with super talented teams.

That and he kind of dug his own grave. He's going to carry the burden as a guy who came up short, because of consecutive epic failures in the playoffs.

Now you can argue that other guys have had their own really bad series, they all have, even the guys of his time, but he won an MVP and was on a 67 win team that was beat in 6 games by a team that got in on the last day of the regular season(by beating Dirk and the Mavericks...)

He's a big man that was stifled by an undersized team, that in itself is a black mark that is going to be hard to shake. Even if any other superstar big were to get stifled so thoroughly on offense, or double and tripled, they'd have pasted the Warriors on the glass and defensively so thoroughly that playing a small forward on them would have been a death sentence.

So yea, Dirk is underrated, but he needs to break through and seal the deal, or he's a talented scoring big man that couldn't finish in the end, and was beat up on by a team of midgets.

Umm, "consecutive playoff failures"? Leading a mediocre team to the NBA Finals is a failure?

The guy is one of the best playoff performers of all-time. He's putting up 26/11 in the playoffs, I think it's only FOUR guys have EVER done that. Among those that haven't: TD, KG, Malone (both of em), MccHale, Webber, DRob, ect.

He had one bad series against a team that was just a nightmare matchup for that Mavs team, and would have been a 4/5 seed had they been healthy/ had Harrington/Jax all year. In that series, Dirk was doubled and tripled, his teammates did NOTHING, his coach was outcoached and he still put up 20/11/3, albeit on a terrible shooting %. And that's the worst.

So that mitigates a 26/11 playoff career, including almost a dozen 30/15 games, a 50 point game, and a 30/11 average in Elimination Games?

Right.

It's sad Cuban is wasting Dirk's prime.

Man, to think if Josh Howard didn't **** up in the finals (game 6 I think?!), Dirk might have had a ring.

The OP made a great post backed by stats that shows just how great Dirk is. I have never understood why he's one of those guys on this board and in the NBA in general that doesn't seem to get any respect at all.

You should never take anything or anyone on RealGM serious.

Dirk is an outstanding and consistent player. He catches a lot of heat for being soft, but I'd take him over most other PF's.

underrated is the new overrated and vice versa...seriously these two words are all but meaningless on realGM

Cthulhu wrote:Umm, "consecutive playoff failures"? Leading a mediocre team to the NBA Finals is a failure?

The guy is one of the best playoff performers of all-time. He's putting up 26/11 in the playoffs, I think it's only FOUR guys have EVER done that. Among those that haven't: TD, KG, Malone (both of em), MccHale, Webber, DRob, ect.

He had one bad series against a team that was just a nightmare matchup for that Mavs team, and would have been a 4/5 seed had they been healthy/ had Harrington/Jax all year. In that series, Dirk was doubled and tripled, his teammates did NOTHING, his coach was outcoached and he still put up 20/11/3, albeit on a terrible shooting %. And that's the worst.

So that mitigates a 26/11 playoff career, including almost a dozen 30/15 games, a 50 point game, and a 30/11 average in Elimination Games?

Right.

Look dude, Dirk is amazing, but he and his team choked away a 2 game lead in the finals after being up 15 to start the 3rd, and Dirk didn't do himself any favors after that point in the series.... Then that series was followed up with a 67 win season, an MVP, and then the biggest upset possibly in league history, to the freaking WARRIORS.

Cthulhu wrote:I'm so fed up with how underrated he is here. People make comparison threads with him to Webber and McHale. Some people don't acknowledge him as a franchise player. Some idiots try to argue Bosh/Pau are better than him. It's a f'ing travesty.

Dallas is SECOND in the West. That's unreal. I don't think people realize how OFFENSIVELY INEPT this Mavs team is outside of Dirk. Lets look at his help:

Josh Howard: This guy is supposed to be his second fiddle. He is averaging 13 PPG on 40% shooting from the field and 27% from the three point line. I repeat, his second fiddle: 13 PPG on 40/27 shooting. All he does these days is shoot jumpers...and isn't a good shooter. Sad thing is, he's the only guy besides Dirk who can CREATE HIS OWN SHOT.

Coming back from injury, looked great tonight defensively.

Cthulhu wrote:Damp: He's been good on D, but offensively...enough said.

67% from the floor?

Cthulhu wrote:Marion: Again, his defense has been great. On offense, he's a joke. He's shooting only 48% when almost all his shots are within 10 feet. Guy is putting up 12 PPG. I like Marion, but if it's not a point blank lay-up, he misses. Can't create. When he tries to do something he throws up a weak ten foot floater. Anti-Jamison style.

Kidd: Kidd cannot score unless it's a WIDE open three pointer. Can't create AT ALL for himself. Putting up a whopping 9 PPG on 42% shooting. Yes, his 3point % is solid, but only because they are all WIDE open.

Scoring has never been the reason he's valuable. I'm thrilled that all he shoots are wide open threes.

Cthulhu wrote:6th man JET Terry: He's always been a streaky, poor man's Mo Williams, but this year age has really caught up with him. Now he's a rich man's Damon Jones. He'll get hot about once a week and that's it. Completely streaky, can't create for himself, and rarely hits good looks on threes these days. Guy is down to 43% from the field and 34% from three. 34% from three, for a 3-point specialist.

JET can still kill teams late in the game. There are a lot of guards in this league shooting worse than 34% from three and I'll bet you that improves.

Cthulhu wrote:Dirk's 2nd and 3rd fiddle are putting up 16 and 13 PPG on 43% and 40% shooting, 34% and 27% from down town. Those are his second two options. Tell me ONE other star who has it that bad? ONE. Only debatable guy is LeBron, but for him I'd still make Mo Williams over Howard AND Terry.

His third "fiddle" doesn't start? Howard hasn't played most of the year, so I don't know that I'd automatically call him the second "fiddle." You can't penalize the Mavs for being balanced in terms of scoring, they've got a handful of guys who could get 20 any given night.

Cthulhu wrote:Artest, Odom, Pau, Bynum
KG, Pierce, Allen
Billups, Smith
Manu, Parker
Mo Williams
Carter, Shard
Amare, Grant Hill

EVERY SINGLE one of those guys would be the #2 option on the Dallas Mavericks.

Most of these players wouldn't have the same numbers on Dallas. Artest, Odom, Bynum, KG, Smith, Manu, Williams, and Hill would not be a clear second option.

Cthulhu wrote:Dirk has a +22.5 Net.

The Mavericks give up FOURTEEN (14) more points per 100 possessions with Dirk on the bench. Do you realize how absurd that is? For point of reference,

with no Dirk: -14
with no LeBron: -7
no Kobe: -8
no D12: -6
no CP3: -8
no Bosh: -4
no Melo: +3
no Roy: +4
no Duncan +7

The Mavs are SIX points worse than ANY other star (Kobe in 2nd). That's unreal.

Yet the Mavericks are still 2nd in the West.

So you think about all this next time when you post in the "franchise player" thread, or make a "Bosh v. Dirk" comparison.

Oh, and he's scoring 48 points per 48 minutes in the clutch and missed only ONE 4th quarter/OT ft all year. Same old, same old.

But yes I would say Dirk is underrated.

ahahha yeah right super talented teams...

Quick, besides Steve Nash when he was like 22, who has been the second best player on his team?

Michael Finley?
Jason Terry?
Josh Howard?

Do any of those guys sound like championship caliber second options?

Just so were clear this was the starting lineup that went to the finals:
Jason Terry
Adrian Griffin
Josh Howard
Dirk Nowitzki
Erick Dampier

with Jerry Stackhouse and a barely old enough to drink Devin Harris coming off the bench.

I guess what my point is, Dirk isn't going to get the love that other big guys get because he couldn't dominate on the glass or defensively when his shots aren't falling.

And in comparison to the dominant wing scorers of his time, he's not as reliable as a true perimeter player.

So he gets stuck somewhere in the middle.

When he retires though, he's going to have one hell of a resume that makes people re-think their perception of him.

Mavfan, I'm not going to quote your whole post...but saying "Damp shoots 67% from the floor" kind of hurts your credibility. Obviously when you shoot all dunks you have a high fg%. So does Reggie Evans, does that make him a good offensive player? Get real. Damp is atrocious offensively. He has no post moves, no jumper and can't finish when contested. He's a good defensive player and offensive rebounder, that's it.

Saying "there are a lot of guards shooting worse than 34%" doesn't help your argument. Jet is SUPPOSED to be an elite shooter and a 2nd/3rd option on offense. So no, just because he shoots a higher 3pt% than Antoine Wright, that doesn't make it ok.

Your points have no merit. If the guys who are supposed to score don't score and do so on low %'s, it doesn't really matter if they can allegedly "score 20 on any night" in hypotheticalville.